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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal

Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old July 18th, 2016, 14:58   #76
DanB36
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That depends on how you read "as of" (which is almost as bad as arguing the definition of "is"). Its ordinary, strict meaning would be "on"--that is, registered with the DMV, or held by a non-VW dealer, on 6/28. @ncsuhunter's car would be neither--its registration would have been canceled when he traded it in, and it isn't neld by a non-VW dealer. I can't see any logical reason for excluding from the set of Eligible Vehicles those that were held by a VW dealer on 6/28, which is why I suspect that isn't what's intended by that clause, but I think that is the most natural reading of it.

If you read "as of" to mean "on or before", the clause makes much more sense--the eligible vehicles are then anything that had been sold by 6/28, whether or not they'd made their way back to a VW dealer on 6/28.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 16:22   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanner View Post

I get all, if prior owner doesn't know of the buyback and registering.
Or 50% if they do register, and if 50% what is that number exactly?

Also I seen where a person previously commented that if the previous owner he would negotiate because he's not required to do anything, I don't think you'll ever know if the person registered till your other 50% just doesn't come in, and I'm sure that VW would never release the previous owners personal info the the current owner.
Somewhere in here I did some math regarding the 50% thing. It would be next to impossible for the 'eligible buyer' (you) to get the full other 50% of the amount. Why? Because there is a 'sellers pool' which equals 50% of the total for all cars that transferred ownership after 9/18. (How VW knows this number I have no clue). Since that pool is dimished by each 'eligible seller' that claims their share, the only way you would get 100% of your eligible seller's 50% would be if NO ONE registered as a registered seller...and then ALL 'eligible buyers' would receive the same amount (because the pool would contain 100% of the cash)..which would be about the same as you getting the full amount.

Another example, would be if there are 100 cars that transferred ownership after 9/28, 100 buyers would get their 50% based on the value of their specific car. However, if 99 of the 100 eligible sellers registered, they would each also get their share of their car. Sum up all of the amounts that those 99 sellers received, subtract it from the total pool amount, and distribute equally across all 100 buyers.

I believe there is some VW trickery here which saves them cash, but that is what the settlement says.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 18:57   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanB36 View Post
That depends on how you read "as of" (which is almost as bad as arguing the definition of "is"). Its ordinary, strict meaning would be "on"--that is, registered with the DMV, or held by a non-VW dealer, on 6/28. @ncsuhunter's car would be neither--its registration would have been canceled when he traded it in, and it isn't neld by a non-VW dealer. I can't see any logical reason for excluding from the set of Eligible Vehicles those that were held by a VW dealer on 6/28, which is why I suspect that isn't what's intended by that clause, but I think that is the most natural reading of it.

If you read "as of" to mean "on or before", the clause makes much more sense--the eligible vehicles are then anything that had been sold by 6/28, whether or not they'd made their way back to a VW dealer on 6/28.
I agree completely, the "As of" needs to clarified. I interpreted it as "on or before" however that may not be the case, though it is the reasonable direction to lean for sure
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Old July 18th, 2016, 19:01   #79
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this is exactly why I asked the question!
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Old July 18th, 2016, 19:02   #80
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the way I see it, things will likely iron out to accept ALL vehicles that fall into the 2.0L tdi categories regardless of current eligibility or not with the exception of title status and purchase date technicalities....by excluding any specific groups, VW is just shooting themselves in the foot...errr....wallet
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Old July 18th, 2016, 19:10   #81
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this is quoted from the FTC document

T. “Eligible Seller” means a person who purchased or otherwise acquired an
Eligible Vehicle on or before September 18, 2015 and sold or otherwise transferred ownership of such vehicle after September 18, 2015 but before June 28, 2016. For avoidance of doubt, Eligible Seller includes any owner whose Eligible Vehicle was totaled and who consequently transferred title of their vehicle to an insurance company on or after September 18, 2015, but before June 28, 2016.

U. “Eligible Seller Restitution” means the monetary compensation that Defendant
will pay to Eligible Sellers who timely file a claim application under and participate in the Settlement Program, equal to 50% of the amount specified in the second column of Attachment 1A for the Eligible Seller’s Eligible Vehicle. Eligible Seller Restitution shall be paid from funds set aside in accordance with the Settlement Program.

This would be me. I purchased the car before September 18, 2015 and traded the car (transferred ownership) in January 2016 (before June 28 2016). From this it sounds like I'd be entitled to 50% of the Attachment 1A column. Again, this was unexpected and I'm still a little skeptical, but it sounds promising. Thanks for the discussion!
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Old July 20th, 2016, 09:59   #82
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Maybe I'm dumb but in exhibit 3 - long form... It says the following...

Page 10. FAQ 9:

Quote:
9. Am I included in the class action settlement?

All persons (including individuals and entities) who, on September 18, 2015, were registered owners or lessees of a Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle in the United States our it's territories (an "Eligible Vehicle" listed on page 1 of this notice), or who, between September 18, 2015, and the end of the claim period*, become a registered owner of an Eligible Vehicle
I added the asterisk because the end of the claim period is September 1, 2018.

I think this clears up confusion and removes the grey area concerning purchases after June 28, 2016.

Anybody disagree? Opinions?
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Old July 20th, 2016, 11:01   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT View Post
Maybe I'm dumb but in exhibit 3 - long form... It says the following...

....
I added the asterisk because the end of the claim period is September 1, 2018.

I think this clears up confusion and removes the grey area concerning purchases after June 28, 2016.

Anybody disagree? Opinions?
Actually, that makes a lot of sense.
That means that every impacted TDI has the option to be bought back or fixed, even if it changes hands multiple times. At some point an owner can opt for either, and get cash. With either option the car is either scrapped or modified, hence no longer eligible. In the post June 18, 2016 context, all that matters is convincing an owner to get the fix or buyback, which being part of the class allows. Opting out of the class really doesn't apply to a new (Post June 28) owner, because they had the opportunity to know exactly what was happening and then have no basis for bringing individual action against VW.
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Old July 20th, 2016, 11:15   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT View Post
Maybe I'm dumb but in exhibit 3 - long form... It says the following...

Page 10. FAQ 9:



I added the asterisk because the end of the claim period is September 1, 2018.

I think this clears up confusion and removes the grey area concerning purchases after June 28, 2016.

Anybody disagree? Opinions?
With such a long claim period, flipping looks like a get rich quick scenario?
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Old July 20th, 2016, 11:44   #85
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Yes, assuming there is enough meat on the bone after taxes, registration, and factoring in only 50% restitution - though after 7/26 we will likely know more in regard to the actual restitution for cars bought after 6/28 since it is still a gray area
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Old July 20th, 2016, 11:48   #86
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How is it a gray area?
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Old July 20th, 2016, 11:50   #87
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I am not sure that it explicitly states anywhere that those who purchase post 6/28 get 100% restitution. I recall that two documents were conflicting in that respect, I don't have them up to look at right now
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Old July 20th, 2016, 11:54   #88
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Unless I missed it, VW only has to notify current owners.

Wondering how many previous owners would even know to file. Much less meet the 45 day window.

Granted pre-June 28 was a bunch of speculation but why sell/trade a car at the current low value if you knew there would be some type of compensation later?

I'm seeing $4-8k potential profits on local listings using current settlement numbers. I have never been a gambler, but the opportunity to buy low and sell high is appealing.
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Old July 20th, 2016, 11:58   #89
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I agree with 1-800's interpretation.

Reading through the long form provides some clarity. As I sift through the long form myself, it seems to me:

June 28 2016 was the last date someone could sell their eligible car and still be a class member as an eligible owner.

If you bought your eligible car after September 18 2015, your restitution is 50% plus a proportionate amount, etc. etc. June 28, 2016 demarks nothing, except it was the last day to remain an eligible seller, and the last day a VAG dealer could have sold the vehicle and still have its buyer eligible for the 50%+ restitution - IOTW, June 28 2016 is only relevant to defining eligible sellers and eligible vehicles.

There doesn't seem to be any scenario in which a post-9/18/15 buyer will receive 100% of restitution, even in the extremely unlikely event that all eligible sellers fail to register for their compensation. I say this because even a small (?) number of these used cars were owned by VAG dealers on 9/18/15, and are thus excluded as eligible sellers.

Think like a corporate entity that is trying to limit their losses. There is no eligible seller for those cars, but there is an eligible buyer, just as the OP originally surmised. All that means is that VW is not on the hook for the seller portion of the restitution on that population of affected cars. I can't believe they would chuck those funds back into the seller pool, nor would I blame them, really. I would surmise (pure speculation), that VW will settle up with their dealers through an internal program, just like the dealer buy-back program they put into place early in the scandal.

Common sense also tells me that eligible sellers who register by the deadline won't have to wait for the buyers of their vehicles to get their vehicles bought back/fixed to get their share of the $$$. To simplify things, I'd expect they'll get their payments timely after the registration period ends, just straight up 50% of column 2 on the 1A attachment, no mileage adjustment. So the idea of leveraging the eligible seller (and yeah, privacy laws would probably prevent VAG from disclosing who that would be, anyway) in any way to the eligible owner's payment seems unlikely. Again, tho, that's my common sense guess, and you should read through the docs yourselves. TBH, I already have a good idea of what the settlement means to me as the original owner and am mostly okay with it, so I'm just reading through the docs out of a perverse curiousity.
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Last edited by motoblue; July 20th, 2016 at 12:02. Reason: Typos
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Old July 20th, 2016, 12:00   #90
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Ah, so gray area as to whether post-6/28 buyers get 50% or 100%? Agreed, that's not quite clear. I think (based on what I found in the Eligible Seller Restitution part of the FTC Consent order and posted in one of these threads) the answer is that post-6/28 buyers get 100% unless there's an Eligible Seller for their car who submits a timely claim. But that could stand to be clarified.
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