What fuel can I put in my '97 Golf TDI GL Mk 3

Hi All,

I'm new to all this, but interested by the possibility of running my tdi on alternative fuels. I've been trawling the net for answers, and the information I've seen is very mixed. Some say i can just put neat clean vegtable oil into my tank, some say i should make it into biodiesel. I've also heard that I can mix neat veg oil with regular diesel, at a ratio of 70/30 to 50/50. As well as all this, i've seen that I can thin veg oil with white spirit and pop that in.

Really, all i want to do is get from A to B for a bit cheaper, so don't really fancy any massive conversions or turning my garage into a chemical processing plant.

You can see that i've seen a lot of different options for alternative fuel, but it's hard to know which one to trust.

My car is fairly old, it cost me less than a grand, so I'm not desperately worried about the very long term damage, as it's already on 160k, although, obviously I don't want to hurt my car/wallet where it can be avoided.

Any advice welcome.


Many thanks.

Chris.

Chris,
I recomend going here and reading up a bit: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve Biodiesel will certainly work fine, however most will recomend against dumping straight oil into your tank. Will your car run....sure. Will it run a long time....??? There is a solvent thinning section in the above forums that does speak about running single tank, but be forewarned that odds say it will lead to problems as the oil leaks past the rings before the engine is warmed up leading to your engine oil turning into pudding, as well as coking of the rings.

My opinion is if you do not want to make biodiesel or install a kit, you are just experimenting with how long your car will continue to run.

if you do not want to make an initial investment for a kit (around $1,000), and do not want to set up a biodiesel "appleseed" processor (around $500), you have pretty much run out of options that will "get from A to B for a bit cheaper". of course by driving a TDI you get ~45mpg, so that's about twice what a normal car gets, but after that you'll either need to convert your car to run on staight veg oil, or you'll need to convert the oil into biodiesel for any long term solution.

sorry to rain on your parade. welcome to the forums, there's a lot of information out there. enjoy.

Hi Chris,

For the most part, I have to echo the sentiments already posted.. You either have to convert the car, or convert the fuel to run on veg oil. However, if you convert the oil into biodiesel, you absolutely can just pour it in your tank when nighttime lows are above 50*F. When it's cold, you have to blend with winterized diesel, or K1 to avoid having a tank full of jello.

All the best,

Just bite the bullet and build a processor. Look into the GL-1 process. It won't be too expensive and you only need the processor and really no other tanks. Build one out of a 55-gal drum and weld on a cone drain to the bottom (http://bayareabiodieselsupply.com/storefront/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=17). Use a heating element that you can control and can achieve temps >190F. Insulate the thing, add a still for meth recovery, filter and your there. It is actually addicting and enjoyable. I love it. Finding a source for used veg oil is not that hard....I already have more than I can handle of canola.

"Really, all i want to do is get from A to B for a bit cheaper, so don't really fancy any massive conversions or turning my garage into a chemical processing plant."

Assuming you really mean '.. for a bit cheaper..' ....

If you want o run w/o converting the car or converting the fuel ( biodiesel ), you have to limit the amount of VO to 20%. 25% is the maximum that is safe. http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm

Others have gone beyond to 50/50 or 70/30, but they acknowledge it's an experiment. More info in the 'Solvent Thinning' Forum at infopop.For example recently, a TDI'er running 80/20 blend recently suffered a bent connecting rod on his TDI. It turned out that his high blend did not cause the failure, however no one knew FOR SURE, UNTIL the engine was taken apart and inspected. Long term reliability over 25% VO in a TDI has not yet been demonstrated.

I've been studying these subjects for over 6 years and am pretty well informed.

Not counting your time, you can run filtered WVO that is essentially free. That can drop your fuel bill by about 20%. A typical driver need only spend 1 hour / month collecting and filtering.

I assume you've already been to these forums:
http://vegburner.co.uk/links.html

thanks, thanks and ever thanks

thanks for all your suggestions guys, i'm quite overwhelmed with the amount of response i got in such a short time. It hasn't gone unchecked! I'll do the reading you've suggested. Sounds like this might be quite fun when I've learnt a little more about it!

Again,

many thanks to all.

You can check my website for a summary of biodiesel Q&A.

www.itsgood4.us

If you want to save money, you will just about have to make your own biodiesel or convert and run on used veg oil. Commercial biodiesel is unlikely to save you any real money. Every time petroleum diesel goes up, so does biodiesel.

BioDiesel said:

Long term reliability over 25% VO in a TDI has not yet been demonstrated.

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I must say, i was not prepared for a sane answer from you. Right on

validius said:

I must say, i was not prepared for a sane answer from you. Right on

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Just wondering if you got that study for us yet?

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1929622&postcount=38

hi all, merry xmas, figured out a plan...

Hi all, firstly, cheers to all who replied to my post, i've done plenty of reading on this in the past month or so, and have come to the conclusion for both cost and environmental reasons that running 100% vegetable oil suits me best out of all the available options. So I thought I'd run my plan past you, see what you think. I have since learnt that my car uses the more reliable bosch injection pump, which has given me more confidence when working with thicker fuels.
Ok, the overall idea is to use 100% SVO to start with. I'm going to heat it to achieve the desired viscosity (that of regular diesel, or as close as i can reasonably get) using injector line heaters (from fattywagon) which heat the injector lines directly to approx 180 degrees f. I'm also going to fit a plate heat exchanger, powered by engine coolent, and further to this, I'm going to modify the fuel filter so that it is electrically heated to approx 180 degrees also. The electrical heating devices will be switched on and off by a temperature sensor. This will be set to regulate the oil temperature, so it achieves a consistant (approx) 180 degrees f. I'm actually happy if the oil is as low as 150 degrees, but no higher than 200 or so. The fuel pump will unfortunately be pumping oil at the ambient temperature for the first half hour or so, until the return fuel has warmed the tank a little, however, this is all an experiment for me, and i figured the most sensitive parts of the process are likely to be the IP and the combustion area along with all its bits and pieces (cylinder head, nozzles, valves, etc). If the fuel pump is supplying too much fuel to the injector pump (and so fuel is returned to the tank) I figure it is less likely to cause a problem delivering the VO. I reasoned it was most important to get the oil viscosity right from the IP onwards. So that's my plan. Pretty simple really. So I welcome any constructive critisism. Plus happy xmas and new year to all.

be very careful running a one tank WVO system

janesnotjones said:

The fuel pump will unfortunately be pumping oil at the ambient temperature for the first half hour or so, until the return fuel has warmed the tank a little

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i'd say you are correct in identifying that as a potential problem. most WVO/SVO people here run a two-tank system starting on regular diesel and then switching to WVO after the engine has reached NOT (normal operating temperature). this type of system generally has the flat plate heat exchanger, and also typically comes with an in-tank, coolant-based heater to heat the fuel in the tank, rather than just relying on the unburned fuel returning to the tank. i personally do not run WVO, but i would recommend against a system that starts the engine cold on WVO.

janesnotjones said:

If the fuel pump is supplying too much fuel to the injector pump (and so fuel is returned to the tank) I figure it is less likely to cause a problem delivering the VO.

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you say "fuel pump" and "injector pump" in a way that it sounds like you're describing two different parts. i might be out of line here, but the stock A4 (and AFAIK the stock A3) have a single fuel injector pump (IP, or FIP) that draws from the tank, and then distributes under pressure to each of the injector nozzles. the PD-TDI has an in-tank lift pump (which i've added to my car) that will help releive some of the stress on the IP, but an A3 should have just the single pump. i would be very hesitanat to run a car using just the the stock IP to draw unheated WVO from the tank.

if your A3 has a different 2 pump system, i'd be happy to learn about it. but i'd be very very careful attempting to run ambient temp WVO on a stock IP. if you seach google for "wvo viscosity" you'll find many many results from people who refer to heating the WVO before the IP to make sure they don't damage their engine.

i don't want to shoot down your plans, but i just want to warn you that most people don't recommend a single tank system that runs cold WVO to the IP.

janesnotjones said:

The fuel pump will unfortunately be pumping oil at the ambient temperature for the first half hour or so,

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Yep ... and this little tidbit is the engine-destroyer.

janesnotjones said:

... i figured the most sensitive parts of the process are likely to be the IP and the combustion area along with all its bits and pieces (cylinder head, nozzles, valves, etc).

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Yep ... all the most expensive stuff!

Do yourself a favor. If you are going to do something like this, DON'T try to create it yourself. Either invest in a one-tank or two-tank Elsbett or similar conversion system. If you buy a pre-engineered system, at least *some* of the teething problems will have already been worked out. It seems that even these kits will require a certain amount of fiddling, tinkering, and customizing in order to get them to work right.

YES it will cost money. It will also cost money to build your own system ... probably more, if you account for the misjudgments and failures that are almost inevitable when re-inventing the wheel.

Co-worker has a real good way to summarize this ... "the cheapskate always pays twice." Don't be that guy.