VW Ramps Up Electric Cars

tadawson

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Yay . . . . ? ? ? ? Everything I never wanted in a vehicle, coupled with a partner I hold in lower regard than dog poop . . .

Might be time to abandon the brand, depending on where this goes.
 

Pat Dolan

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Yay . . . . ? ? ? ? Everything I never wanted in a vehicle, coupled with a partner I hold in lower regard than dog poop . . .

Might be time to abandon the brand, depending on where this goes.
This.

I was mildly offended when we went water pumper in '74 (Scirocco). I was perplexed at introduction of diesels - but obviously a convert and totally pissed off with the dieselgate affair. Abandoning the technology that they put on the map once again is too much for me to take. I think our Q7 will be the last VW (other than air cooled).

Worth noting: most of our VW troubles over the years seemed to be their inability to make water/corrosion/vibration resistant wiring terminations and connections (especially the C1 and C2 platforms). Having them do electric cars will be like Joseph Lucas doing the wiring.

Don't get me started on Ford (ptui!)
 
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turbobrick240

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I can't foresee a Ford/VW partnership going anywhere. I'm more interested in the prospect of a renewed partnership between Mercedes and Tesla. A long range electric Sprinter van would be awesome, imo. Mercedes supplying a glider chassis, and Tesla the drivetrain & electronics.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Ford and Volkswagen have had several partnerships in the past, and while they eventually ended, there was no bad blood between the companies.

If I could buy an EV for as cheap as my Golf TDI and have it be able to do everything it does, and still be doing it 20 years and a half million miles later, I'm cool with that.

The general job loss though isn't always thought of, nice that this article at least mentions this. Fortunately I will not live long enough to see this bite into my lifestyle... hopefully anyway. Humanity and technology are at odds sometimes with one another.
 

GoFaster

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I can't foresee a Ford/VW partnership going anywhere. I'm more interested in the prospect of a renewed partnership between Mercedes and Tesla. A long range electric Sprinter van would be awesome, imo. Mercedes supplying a glider chassis, and Tesla the drivetrain & electronics.
Mercedes is already doing their own electric Sprinter. I believe production for the European market has already started.

Mercedes has no need of involving Tesla for this. Tesla does not do any magic that isn't known elsewhere.
 

turbobrick240

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Mercedes is already doing their own electric Sprinter. I believe production for the European market has already started.
Mercedes has no need of involving Tesla for this. Tesla does not do any magic that isn't known elsewhere.
You're probably right. Though Tesla does have the best batteries and electronics in the industry. Daimler has recently made some noises that they'd be interested in another partnership. And Elon just tweeted yesterday that he'd be interested in an E-Sprinter collaboration.
 

kjclow

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With Ford saying that they are backing out of the sedan production, joint development with VW could be an answer to keep the blue oval on the front of four door cars. Hopefully, it won't be the same rabbit hole the Routan ended up going down.
 

turbobrick240

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Given the VW mindset, I think they would insist on an unequal partnership. I don't want the VW corporate culture to infect an American business as iconic as Ford. It's bad enough that Fiat calls the shots at Chrysler these days.
 

tadawson

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You're probably right. Though Tesla does have the best batteries and electronics in the industry. Daimler has recently made some noises that they'd be interested in another partnership. And Elon just tweeted yesterday that he'd be interested in an E-Sprinter collaboration.

Also the highest price, which makes me ask the question: Is Tesla really better at technology, or just have a fanatic customer base that is willing to pay more for better stuff? I suspect that anyone has access to these parts, but is trying to hit a price point, so doesn't . . .



- Tim
 

turbobrick240

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Also the highest price, which makes me ask the question: Is Tesla really better at technology, or just have a fanatic customer base that is willing to pay more for better stuff? I suspect that anyone has access to these parts, but is trying to hit a price point, so doesn't . . .



- Tim
Both. Tesla is to the automotive industry what Spacex is to the aerospace industry. Both companies are leaps and bounds ahead of the competition at present. Tesla has probably single handedly advanced the adoption of EV's by a decade or more. With some help from Daimler and Toyota along the way.
 

GoFaster

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The technical aspects of a Tesla vehicle don't include anything that nobody else knows how to do. The batteries are Panasonic. They are standard size 18650 cells. Motors and inverters that they use aren't anything special.

What Tesla did that nobody else did, was figure out how to market this stuff properly. The vehicle had to be good enough to dispel traditional EV myths (slow, ugly, small, can't go very far, etc). He saw that the charging infrastructure needed to go hand in hand with the vehicles and if the vehicle manufacturer themselves didn't do it, nobody else would. The rest of the auto industry STILL has not gotten this message.
 

turbobrick240

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The Model 3 uses 2170 battery cells with a proprietary NCA chemistry (much less cobalt required) that Tesla co-developed with Panasonic. None of the other manufacturers are using NCA chemistry currently. The 2170 format combined with the advanced chemistry give Tesla an energy density and cost advantage over the competition- LG, Samsung, and CATL.
 

tikal

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It is going to be a transition to EVs and, not necessarily, as we feel a revolution in the electronic gadget way. Much, much slower but in the electric direction for the long term view (decades).

I am ok with it. Diesel vehicles and EVs can coexist. Gasoline ICEs can disappear faster if you ask me but I do not think is going to happen in the US.
 

kjclow

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Which is part one and which is part two? The cars that require the charging infrastructure or the infrastructure that will service future needs?
 

compu_85

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The technical aspects of a Tesla vehicle don't include anything that nobody else knows how to do.
Tell that to Jaguar. Somehow they managed to make the I Pace suck down so much power going down the road it's rage stinks, even with its large battery. And because it uses so much power, and chargers slower than a Tesla, a long trim would take forever :eek:

-J
 

GoFaster

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How to develop an aerodynamic shape, how to build brakes that don't drag, picking low rolling resistance tires that aren't excessively heavy or wide, how to build DC to AC inverters, etc are all things that are known. That Jaguar perhaps chose not to do some of these things ... is their problem.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I think anyone who buys a Jaguar opens themselves up to a wide variety of potential problems, why should one motivated by excited electrons be any different than one motivated by small hydrogen explosions? :p
 

RoundHouse

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Given the VW mindset, I think they would insist on an unequal partnership. I don't want the VW corporate culture to infect an American business as iconic as Ford. It's bad enough that Fiat calls the shots at Chrysler these days.


Fiat can call the shots because Benz Chrysler ran their biz into Bankruptcy and fiat bought it

Chrysler goes BK every 20 years or so pretty regular

That’s what the pickups now say Ram instead of dodge

Chrysler figured when they went BK and got auctioned , the pickup line might actually have a buyer

Along with the Half of the Jeep line
The wranglers and Cherokee , grand Cherokee are the only vehicles Jeep should even bother to sell
 

RoundHouse

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Tesla’s self driving stuff is light years ahead of anyone else

Weird since they are the little guy and Benz and GM and VW have unlimited money and engineering to spend

I regularly drive from Atlanta to Memphis
And from Atlanta to Daytona

No electric car can drive 400-500 miles
What’s the max range , 200?
And that’s with a tiny car
Make it a 4WD suv with three adults , two 50 lb dogs and some luggage
Or a 4WD crew cab pickup with two adults , a bunch of tools and luggage

The range is about the same as 5 gallons of gasoline
Then You gotta wait half a day to recharge

A gas or diesel car can drive unlimited miles with a ten minute refill
 
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compu_85

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The larger battery Teslas, like ours, touch 300 miles per charge. But you have to look at the fast charging network as part of the car.

We never go the full 300 miles, we drive from ~15% - 60%. That's where the battery charges the quickest - about 100kw. So a recharge takes 20 minutes, or about the same time it takes to walk the dog, go to the restroom yourself, and perhaps get a snack.

We've put 11,000 miles on our Model 3 in the 2 months we've had it. We're taking it from DC to NJ later today. Range is not a problem. On the drive from DC to MI, stopping to charge adds about an hour to the 8 hour drive. And it's probably healthier to get out and walk around every 2 hours anyway.

For that matter we've put 20,000 miles our our 500e since we got it in March of 17. And it "only" goes 80 miles, and has no fast charge capability!

-J
 

GoFaster

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Tesla’s self driving stuff is light years ahead of anyone else
No, it isn't. Tesla just put it on the market before it was ready for prime time, and marketed it in a way that implies that it does things that it actually doesn't.

If any of the mainstream manufacturers had built a car that even ONCE sent a car automatically down a breakdown lane and headlong into a barrier, or underneath a tractor-trailer without braking, killing the driver (in both cases - and there's more), there would be hell to pay ... so they don't. (And there have been multiple instances of autopilot doing the wrong things.) Frankly, I don't understand the free pass that Tesla has been given on this issue. Anyone else would have been ordered to recall and fix, or disable the system.
 

piotrsko

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There are no currently sucessful tesla autodrive lawsuits either. Get a couple of multi million awards and things may change rapidly.

Settling doesn't count.
 

turbobrick240

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There will always be accidents no matter who or what is driving the cars. Despite the system being called autopilot, Tesla makes it abundantly clear that driver attention is required at all times. Someday there will be completely automated driving, but we aren't there yet. The statistics show that miles logged using autopilot result in far fewer accidents(per mile) than those where no driver's aids like autopilot are used. Many lives have been saved by these systems already.
 

compu_85

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Frankly, I don't understand the free pass that Tesla has been given on this issue. Anyone else would have been ordered to recall and fix, or disable the system.
My ELR will crash just the same way when on radar cruise control as an AP1 car when coming on stopped traffic. AP is just very fancy cruise control.

-J
 

GoFaster

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There will always be accidents no matter who or what is driving the cars. Despite the system being called autopilot, Tesla makes it abundantly clear that driver attention is required at all times. Someday there will be completely automated driving, but we aren't there yet. The statistics show that miles logged using autopilot result in far fewer accidents(per mile) than those where no driver's aids like autopilot are used. Many lives have been saved by these systems already.
Time to put your thinking cap on for a moment.

Tesla officially states that autopilot is only meant for certain limited circumstances and that the driver has to retain control (which means, is the autopilot system really responsible??). It's not for use in bad weather, heavy traffic, it's incapable of responding to traffic signals or road signs so it's not for use when there are traffic control devices, etc.

What all that amounts to, is that it is only good for motorways in free flowing traffic conditions and not in construction zones, and in good weather. (Yet they don't restrict it to those situations - as GM does with Cadillac "Super Cruise" - even though the car has enough information on board that it could!)

What is the collision rate for human drivers in those situations? Motorways are the safest roads. Good weather conditions are the safest conditions.

The autopilot reported collision rates are therefore skewed by the conditions that the system is only viable to be used in.

The overall real world driver fatality rate for Tesla cars is HIGHER than that of its peers. (It's unclear why.)

Articles with backup information:
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-safety-statistics/
https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi...xury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17
 

turbobrick240

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Time to put your thinking cap on for a moment.
Tesla officially states that autopilot is only meant for certain limited circumstances and that the driver has to retain control (which means, is the autopilot system really responsible??). It's not for use in bad weather, heavy traffic, it's incapable of responding to traffic signals or road signs so it's not for use when there are traffic control devices, etc.
What all that amounts to, is that it is only good for motorways in free flowing traffic conditions and not in construction zones, and in good weather. (Yet they don't restrict it to those situations - as GM does with Cadillac "Super Cruise" - even though the car has enough information on board that it could!)
What is the collision rate for human drivers in those situations? Motorways are the safest roads. Good weather conditions are the safest conditions.
The autopilot reported collision rates are therefore skewed by the conditions that the system is only viable to be used in.
The overall real world driver fatality rate for Tesla cars is HIGHER than that of its peers. (It's unclear why.)
Articles with backup information:
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-safety-statistics/
https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi...xury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17
Meh. That second link is absolute garbage- clearly written by someone with extreme bias. He basically invents statistics to fit his narrative. The Solar City rant at the beginning of his blog is a dead giveaway. Just another hedge fund manager who almost certainly held a short position on Tesla trying to spread FUD.

I much prefer fatality statistics to be on a per mile basis than a per year basis. Many luxury cars are owned by senior citizens who put very few miles on the cars annually. They also are more likely to be very conservative drivers. Tesla owners are generally a younger demographic. Look at the accident in Florida where the three high school kids died after crashing their model S. They clearly weren't using autopilot while going 85 mph in a 25 mph zone. A single accident like that can skew the fatality numbers significantly with such a small sample size. Not to worry- Tesla is now capable of producing 1000 model 3 in a day, so the sample size will grow very quickly. :)
 

GoFaster

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Right. The autopilot crashes per whatever distance is still skewed because it was not in use under those conditions when the high school kids crashed. It's only (supposed to be) in use under conditions that present low risk anyhow. It's not capable of dealing with higher risk situations such as intersections with traffic control devices. It has demonstrated flaws even in the low-risk situations in which it is meant to be used.

Until systems are in place that prevent people from running stop signs or red traffic signals or turning left in front of oncoming traffic, they're not going to make much difference.

Autopilot fails to recognise construction barriers and temporary construction lane makrings, and insists on rigidly following the original lane markings (surrounding human drivers had no difficulty): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePJ9NIzB0IY

Autopilot fails to correctly respond to a vehicle stopped partially in its lane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urDvTJB1-Ss

Autopilot incorrectly negotiates a fork in the road (this has been a recurring problem, and it has killed someone): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLIZC6bssik

"But the driver is supposed to be paying attention to take over at any moment" ... this is the issue; that's not going to happen, it takes time for a human to react (and if there are extended periods of no action, you know those people are going to be on their phone, or sleeping), and time is often not available.

Tesla has done the rest of the auto industry the favor of proving that "semi-autonomous" is not a viable option. Either the driver has to be driving, possibly with the system nudging controls if the driver does a demonstrably wrong thing such as completely forget to brake when approaching an obstacle, or it has to be fully automated with no driver interaction. Hand-offs from automated to manual driving can't be "BEEP I don't know what's happening, take over now" like Tesla does - the automated driving system has to be completely in charge of the driving task with a fully planned out, automated "back-up plan" (e.g. pull off the road into a parking area and stop in a parking spot!) if a driver doesn't take over control.

GM Supercruise use is only allowed on limited-access roads that have been fully planned out including the contingency plans for how to cleanly hand off control to the driver (or take pre-planned actions if the driver doesn't do so).

Tesla cars all have navigation systems. To me, it's mind-boggling that they haven't restricted autopilot use to motorways in which all the forks in the road and lane barriers have been planned out. Driver press the autopilot button outside of those conditions, "Disallowed". Driver reaches the end of a zone in which autopilot is fully validated ... "BEEP take over manual control" ... driver doesn't respond? pull into a pre-planned parking area and stop.
 
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