post fix DSG update failure - bricked cars with no solution from VW

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
"But the rental car uses more gas than my TDI did" - cry me a river; it's essentially being given to you for free.
"But the rental car isn't as <whatever> as my TDI" - again, cry me a river, it's being offered to you for free.
To be entirely fair, it isn't equivalent, though, to the car that's being held.

However, there's a different angle - the well-above-market-value buyback offer would likely be used as evidence of a good-faith dealing. Basically, a judge may well say that all VW has to do is complete the buyback to make the owner right, so the buyer needs to take the buyback to be made right.

Again, it's exactly like if the car had fallen off of a lift during service, and been totaled as a result - it's just that the liable party may be different.
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
So if someone steals my car, and offers me something other than what I bought/wanted, then it's not a crime? I don't think so . . . . Refusing to return property you don't own is theft, period!
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Still wondering why this is such a stick in tadawsons side, but whatever.

The dealer didn't steal the car. The owner gave it to him and the dealer has now given the owner a loaner while the problem is being figured out.

It is like a person taking a piece of jewelry in to get it cleaned and repaired, but something went wrong and the store is working on how to get it fixed properly. But the lady has a big event and she just has to have jewelery so the store loans her some nice stuff to use in the meantime.

The store didn't steal it, they are working on getting it fixed.

Of course for some people, the kneejerk response is to sue, Sue, SUE!!!
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
They clearly know how to make this right, but won't.
Evidence suggests that they DON'T know how to fix this, at the moment. I am sure someone is working on it, because all those rental/loaner cars are costing them a bundle.

In the meantime, they are obligated to revert the car to original, known functional condition.

(And considering that a botched fix was not addressed in the settlement, I can't fathom that the court would prohibit a back out of the partial until they get it right, and *this* is the point that needs to be pressed with the court . . .)
While I'm obviously not privy to what happened in court ... it is rather likely that VW was intentionally NOT able to revert a "fixed" car back to its original software. Otherwise, someone could get the fix, get paid for it, decide they don't like it, and revert back. Only way to fully prevent that from happening is to make sure the software to do that does not exist.

And, yes, it's pretty likely that the courts would allow them to address this in some manner that would make the cars functional in the interim, but court proceedings take TIME and MONEY.

In the meantime, "in good faith" VW has provided you with a loaner car. Use it, and stop complaining. Deal with it.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
So to sum up. a few of us chose the $$$ /FIX/warranty vs buyback or just keep.

the FIX was advertised to be a 6 hour job. has turned into a 6 week plus limbo. (for us lucky ones)

(with a loaner)

those of us who are affected are dealing with it.

for entertainment, here is the e-mail update I got on 10/10 from the vw customer care rep.

Thanks for your patience while I work with *** Volkswagen(dealer).
I just wanted to let you know that I am waiting on an update still within Volkswagen regarding the software update on your 20098(sic) Jetta TDI, and I will follow up with you by COB 10/17/17.




Jennifer.....Region Case Manager

 
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MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Location
NoVa/NJ
TDI
2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
I bet legal there are questions about the new update..
 

Meg8

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Location
San Diego
TDI
2009 Jetta Sportwagen TDI
Hey Everyone!

This thread took an interesting turn. While I am actually interested in all of the non-affected forum members opinions/suggestions/arguments, it did convolute the thread somewhat.

Based off what I have seen, we have five members that are affected by this issue, in the sense that their cars are currently bricked:
- meerschm
- mpriolo
- Woza
- Howie09TDI?
- Myself

And one member who has requested the fix and been turned down due to the issue at appointment:
- adrienne

Am I missing anybody in either category? If so, please DM me!

I am going to be reaching out to you in a private group message (or individually, if this system doesn't allow for direct group messages) with some information from the plaintiff lawyers I have spoken with.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Why not just post it? That is what the forum is for. Taking the info private robs everyone else that may encounter the issue of a solution.
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Still wondering why this is such a stick in tadawsons side, but whatever.

The dealer didn't steal the car. The owner gave it to him and the dealer has now given the owner a loaner while the problem is being figured out.

It is like a person taking a piece of jewelry in to get it cleaned and repaired, but something went wrong and the store is working on how to get it fixed properly. But the lady has a big event and she just has to have jewelery so the store loans her some nice stuff to use in the meantime.

The store didn't steal it, they are working on getting it fixed.

Of course for some people, the kneejerk response is to sue, Sue, SUE!!!
Because I don't like to see folks getting raped over trivia, that's why . . . Yeah, they gave it to VW with the promise of the fix. VW blew the promise, and the owner has the right to demand it back at any time. The fact that VW will not repair it with currently known good process is also grounds to consider suing . . . . they *KILLED* the car and refuse to correct thier mistake. Sheesh, this really isn't all that complicated . . . but then again, perhaps some folks like getting bent over and violated . . .
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Evidence suggests that they DON'T know how to fix this, at the moment. I am sure someone is working on it, because all those rental/loaner cars are costing them a bundle.



While I'm obviously not privy to what happened in court ... it is rather likely that VW was intentionally NOT able to revert a "fixed" car back to its original software. Otherwise, someone could get the fix, get paid for it, decide they don't like it, and revert back. Only way to fully prevent that from happening is to make sure the software to do that does not exist.

And, yes, it's pretty likely that the courts would allow them to address this in some manner that would make the cars functional in the interim, but court proceedings take TIME and MONEY.

In the meantime, "in good faith" VW has provided you with a loaner car. Use it, and stop complaining. Deal with it.
There is no way to prevent an overwrite/bench flash of a prom . . . sorry. They have what they need to revert - they simply refuse . . . Heck, it's the same issue with tunes - just as illegal - yet nobody seems to have a problem loading those. Technology isn't the issue here - it's fear, which goes to my point that the court should amend the ruling to allow reverting failed attempts . . . Oh, and you might ask one of the tuners how many ECU's they can't bench flash . . . the old code isn't a factor . . .
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
No, they have offered to correct their mistake, in at least one case, by buying the car back at well above fair market value. The former owner can then go onto the open market and buy another car - even another TDI.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
No, they have offered to correct their mistake, in at least one case, by buying the car back at well above fair market value. The former owner can then go onto the open market and buy another car - even another TDI.
Who has agreed to the fix, had the car stuck, and gotten a buyback and payment from VW?
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
Because I don't like to see folks getting raped over trivia, that's why . . . Yeah, they gave it to VW with the promise of the fix. VW blew the promise, and the owner has the right to demand it back at any time. The fact that VW will not repair it with currently known good process is also grounds to consider suing . . . . they *KILLED* the car and refuse to correct thier mistake. Sheesh, this really isn't all that complicated . . . but then again, perhaps some folks like getting bent over and violated . . .
Please take your abusive language someplace else. you are not helping this discussion at all.

This is a technical hiccup.

it is not rape.

you trivialize sexual assault by such casual use of the term.

and just in case there is any further discussion, know that there is an option on this site's User CP to edit a per-user ignore list. I have added tadawson to my ignore list, since I have seen nothing he has posted of any interest.
 
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tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
No, they have offered to correct their mistake, in at least one case, by buying the car back at well above fair market value. The former owner can then go onto the open market and buy another car - even another TDI.
Wonderful! They offer to ram you even deeper, and someone actually considers that a solution? Amazing . . . .

Consider this: There is no legal requirement to take the fix. They are also required to continue to service unfixed cars (and cannot mandate the fix to get service) . . . a couple of facts that I think we can all agree on.

Am I the only one that has noticed, that because of that, that ECU, TCM's, etc. must then obviously be stocked in pre-fix configurations? Thus making this entire issue as simple as dropping in one or two modules that they clearly have?

Something just doesn't make a lot of sense on this . . .
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Please take your abusive language someplace else. you are not helping this discussion at all.

This is a technical hiccup.

it is not rape.

you trivialize sexual assault by such casual use of the term.

and just in case there is any further discussion, know that there is an option on this site's User CP to edit a per-user ignore list. I have added tadawson to my list, since I have seen nothing he has posted of any interest.
I apologize if my being open and honest offends you. Both are a personal violation against the victim's will, so to me, the term fits . . . Myself, I prefer open to PC any day, and will not degrade myself with the PC agenda . . . sorry . . .
 

newbury

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Location
Fairfax, VA/Fulton, MS
TDI
2009 JSW
Hey Everyone!
This thread took an interesting turn. While I am actually interested in all of the non-affected forum members opinions/suggestions/arguments, it did convolute the thread somewhat.
Based off what I have seen, we have five members that are affected by this issue, in the sense that their cars are currently bricked:
- meerschm
- mpriolo
- Woza
- Howie09TDI?
- Myself
And one member who has requested the fix and been turned down due to the issue at appointment:
- adrienne
Am I missing anybody in either category? If so, please DM me!
I am going to be reaching out to you in a private group message (or individually, if this system doesn't allow for direct group messages) with some information from the plaintiff lawyers I have spoken with.
Just post it!
Why not just post it? That is what the forum is for. Taking the info private robs everyone else that may encounter the issue of a solution.
Like lightflyer wrote, Meg8 you have no knowledge of how many of us are lurking here trying to decide to turn it in, go for the fix or just ignore it all.
 

psd1

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Location
OR
TDI
2006 Jetta 2013 Passat SE 6Man
****show.


Everything summed up in one word!

I'm sorry there are people negatively affected by this issue. These owners purchased a specific car, for a specific reason. VWOA should do their best to put them in a reasonably similar car to the one(s) they are holding hostage.

I suggest that everyone keep copius notes and record the name of every person, every call and every tidbit they receive from anyone associated with VW. I would be calling once a week, the squeeky wheel get the grease.
 

fookin

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2016
Location
California
TDI
A3
I apologize if my being open and honest offends you. Both are a personal violation against the victim's will, so to me, the term fits . . . Myself, I prefer open to PC any day, and will not degrade myself with the PC agenda . . . sorry . . .
Apologizing for elevating your torment to the level of actual rape victims torment and then taking it back and stating you won't be political or correct about it. You make no sense.
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
First, I didn't take anything back. It was more of a cynical comment about how the PC crowd can't deal with open, honest, and free expression of opinion . . .
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
Don't mess with tejas!
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
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Location
Springfield, VA
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‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
First, I didn't take anything back. It was more of a cynical comment about how the PC crowd can't deal with open, honest, and free expression of opinion . . .
Open, honest, and free expression of opinion? It was simply pointed out that comparing problems with the Dieselgate response to forced sexual assault is both inaccurate and inappropriate.

Let's get back on topic, please. I want to know what Volkswagen is going to do about these cars.
 

josephbui

Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2017
Location
DC
TDI
2009 Jetta Sportwagen
You can change your mind for the fix or buyback up until you give the keys to the dealer for either solution. I've got all the paperwork sitting on my kitchen table and am debating on my best course of action. Based on one post, I guess I need to check my build date and see if it possible that my 10 JSW may still be effected. That would be the deciding vote on the buyback.
I have a 2009 Jetta Sportwagen TDI with DSG that was "successfully" fixed, although it now has a distinctive diesel exhaust smell in the interior of the car unless the windows are rolled down. I contacted TDI settlement support, and the agent there indicated that VW will consider switching people from fix to buyback if VW Customer Care determines that there is a problem with the car after the fix. No guarantees, of course, but I am hoping that they will buy back my car because it is not enjoyable to drive while huffing diesel exhaust.

See http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5339118#post5339118
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
I have a 2009 Jetta Sportwagen TDI with DSG that was "successfully" fixed, although it now has a distinctive diesel exhaust smell in the interior of the car unless the windows are rolled down. I contacted TDI settlement support, and the agent there indicated that VW will consider switching people from fix to buyback if VW Customer Care determines that there is a problem with the car after the fix. No guarantees, of course, but I am hoping that they will buy back my car because it is not enjoyable to drive while huffing diesel exhaust.
See http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5339118#post5339118
Sounds like they damaged an exhaust gasket or a flex fitting when working on your car. I'd take it back in to get checked for exhaust leaks close to the engine.
 

93celicaconv

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2013
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
Turned in my 2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition to VW, DSG, Nav, Sunroof / Replaced with a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium
Sounds like they damaged an exhaust gasket or a flex fitting when working on your car. I'd take it back in to get checked for exhaust leaks close to the engine.
I agree - sounds like an exhaust leak, and that is not uncommon when taking exhaust systems apart to get at the DPF in a 2009. They probably just did not check for leaks after putting back together. Very correctable.
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
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Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Open, honest, and free expression of opinion? It was simply pointed out that comparing problems with the Dieselgate response to forced sexual assault is both inaccurate and inappropriate.

Let's get back on topic, please. I want to know what Volkswagen is going to do about these cars.
To that individual . . . he does not define the standards for all . . .

And as such, has *zero* right to impose his opinion on others . . .

And I still, too, want to know why, since parts are clearly available to do so, they don't just do an immediate backout of the botched fixes pending getting it right . . .
 
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Howie09tdi

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Location
New York
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI(buyback gone) 2015 BEETLE TDI
I was turned down at appointment still driving my 09 TDI till a fix is available dealer didn't want to due hardware until software was correct.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
To that individual . . . he does not define the standards for all . . .

And as such, has *zero* right to impose his opinion on others . . .
I feel that your trivialization of a horrific crime against a person's bodily autonomy by comparing it to a botched car repair that, in one case at least, the automaker has offered to more than fairly compensate the owner of the car, is incredibly dangerous - calling fairly mundane, if annoying, scenarios "rape" means that actual rape is itself treated by society as less important than it actually is.

But, to get back to the actual topic...

And I still, too, want to know why, since parts are clearly available to do so, they don't just do an immediate backout of the botched fixes pending getting it right . . .
We don't actually know that parts are available to do so - it's very easily possible that VW doesn't stock those parts any more, only the post-fix parts, requiring a vehicle to get the fix.

And, even if they do, as I've told you half a dozen times by now, backing out the fix after already removing the defeat device would be a violation of federal law - the same violation that VW committed by manufacturing the car with the defeat device in the first place.
 

fredthe

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Location
Bowie, MD
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagon SEL DSG
I'm just a lurker here, but I do have a relevant thought for those with bricked cars: When (hey, I'm an optimist) you do finally get your fixed cars back, will the restitution payment be based on the date you dropped your car off, or the date you got it back? After all the longer they keep it the lower the overall miles/month gets :)
 
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