can the oil filter be changed without draining the oil?

77 K20

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I've spent the last 2 hours reading and watching videos of oil changes... learned a lot but not everything.

First of all I have owned a TDI now for 4 days. Previous owner took great care of it- he had just done an oil change with Rotella T6 synthetic oil. He gave me a few quarts of it and also the empty oil filter box so I'd know what oil filter to use. I just looked at it today and it is a Fram filter. Sounds like they used to be re-branded ones, but now are crap.

I was thinking I should buy an OEM one and change out the oil filter. Can I do that without draining the oil from the engine? Or will I make a huge mess all over the top of the engine?

Or who cares- and just change the oil in a few thousand miles and put on a good filter then?
 

cleaver

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I wouldn't worry too much, wait your 10,000 miles and the oil change with the correct oil and good quality oil filter. The ALH engine is somewhat forgiving compared to other VW motors...

Yes, you can change the filter without draining the oil. Replace the filter, turn on the car for a few minutes, check the oil after a few minutes of the engine being off, and top up, if needed.
 

Joe_Meehan

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Fram seems to get a lot of poor press. If you look at a new Fram filter and compare it to any of a number of other filters, you will likely see a real difference in how it appears with cardboard construction etc.
However if it is really tested, you will likely find little or no difference in function and reliability.
My advice is to not worry, but if it really bothers you then I suggest the cost of a new filter and the bother of changing it with whatever brand makes you feel more secure, would be worth the cost. It may not make any difference to your car, but there is real value in being comfortable with your car.
 

Honeydew

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I know a local member who changes his filter every 5K miles and oil every 10K miles. He uses Purolator filters I think. Doing this makes him happy.
 

20IndigoBlue02

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Fram seems to get a lot of poor press. If you look at a new Fram filter and compare it to any of a number of other filters, you will likely see a real difference in how it appears with cardboard construction etc.
Fram's cardboard endcaps in canister filters don't really apply to this situation, since we are talking about cartridge filters here.

Of course no one says the Mann cartridge filters that uses some sort of resin-impregnated paper as the endcaps, including the ALH application, versus the interwebz preferred metal endcap material.
 

ruking

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YES, BUT...Don't WORRY, be happy !! It is actually a rebranded "MANN", which is one vendor that does oem for VW. As such, those oems conform to 30,000 miles OCI's.

Now the ones I saw (@WalMart & local Kragen's) were actually MORE expensive than what you can get any oem ones (MANN, Hengst, Bosch, etc)and from the VW dealers!!??

Conceptually it is as easy as (msg #7 sez); unscrew the cap/top, raise the now dripping old filter, (I put a plastic container under it, one of two expressly for catching used oil, whatever mess is contained within the ...container) and drop in the new filter (top on the UP side) and rethread the cap/top back on.
 
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jeremy1701

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You can change the filter without changing the oil. You'll need an oil filter cap [wrench], which you can get at Autozone. I would wait a few minutes (maybe like ten) so that any oil would have a chance to drain out; but not too long, as then the oil will start to thicken. It will be *messy*. You should be able to pull the filter straight up out of the housing and then hold it there to let the oil drain back into the filter housing. Have a thick cardboard box within reach so that you can grab it and put it under the filter. A thin box (like the one the new filter will come in) will leak quickly, use something much thicker. Don't move the filter to the box, or you will drip oil all over the place; instead, move the box under the filter. Be sure to check your oil level when finished and top it off.

In all honesty, if you're concerned about it, I would just change the oil.

Hope that helps!
 
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Honeydew

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^^ Odds are, jeremy1701 meant oil filter cap wrench, FWIW. You can also make a strap wrench work or use bare hands depending on how tight the cap was torqued on previously.
 

jeremy1701

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lol... Thanks honeydew! I did mean wrench and edited my post to include it.

I found I could not use the strap style wrench b/c the lip on the oil filter cap was just too small. The cap wrench is seriously about $5 at AZ. Very worth the price for the massive head ache you save (IMHO).
 

Joe_Meehan

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Fram's cardboard endcaps in canister filters don't really apply to this situation, … .
True, Most of the information about various test don't include our TDI filter styles. I provided this information simply to point out that some (a high % of the those available on line) tests are not valid, even when the testers intend it to be and they believe it to be valid.
 

JB05

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I thought I read here that the oil filter wrench from AZ does a poor job due to improper grip. Check out the real one from Metalnerd.
 

jeremy1701

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I thought I read here that the oil filter wrench from AZ does a poor job due to improper grip. Check out the real one from Metalnerd.
It works fine for me. I've never had an issue with it. Do you have linkage to Metalnerds product? I'm always happy to help out someone on a forum making a custom part rather then getting the one from Bigbox.

Edit: Found it. Looks like the same one I have. http://www.metalnerd.com/cat05.htm
 

n1das

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Conceptually it is as easy as (msg #7 sez); unscrew the cap/top, raise the now dripping old filter, (I put a plastic container under it, one of two expressly for catching used oil, whatever mess is contained within the ...container) and drop in the new filter (top on the UP side) and rethread the cap/top back on.
IMPORTANT!: Be sure to fill the housing up with oil before reinstalling the cap/top. This serves to wet the new filter and prevent oil starvation at startup. The oil filter should have a dam inside that prevents the filter from emptying completely after shutdown to keep oil in there for the next start. Since you're installing a fresh filter that's DRY and empty, you need to prime it with oil before putting the cap back on.

I say "should" about the oil dam because early version filters didn't have an oil dam in there. These early filters didn't have a top and bottom orientation. Buyer beware, some aftermarket brands may still be using the old design. Buy only the latest OEM filter to be sure you've got the right filter.

Old & BAD filter: DO NOT USE!!!! (1999.5 - 2001 timeframe?)


You will experience severe oil starvation at startup with this filter. :eek:

NEW filter design with oil dam inside:


This filter has OBEN/TOP on it and is the correct filter to use. When I bought oil filters back in 2002, I checked them while still at the dealer's parts counter to make sure I got the correct filter. The only reason I mention this about the oil dams is some aftermarket brands might still be using the old design....more reason to stick to OEM filters.

Original "Damn the Oil Dams!" thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=32782

Good luck.
 
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77 K20

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Fram's cardboard endcaps in canister filters don't really apply to this situation, since we are talking about cartridge filters here.

Of course no one says the Mann cartridge filters that uses some sort of resin-impregnated paper as the endcaps, including the ALH application, versus the interwebz preferred metal endcap material.
Thanks for all the replies. I have worked a lot on gassers- but the TDI is a bit out of my realm of comfort. I have never seen a cartridge filter before.

I'm just going to leave it in for around 5,000 and then change it. It is still a shock at how black that oil is right after an oil change. Gotta change the way I think about a few things.
 

jeremy1701

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@77k20 - I felt the same way when I first got my Beetle. It's not so bad. In fact, now that I've done it a bunch of times, I actually like the paper filters better. Easier to change, not nearly as messy and totally less waste then those big ole metal filters.

@n1das - I did not know that. Thanks for the info! I'll keep it in mind moving forward.
 

ruking

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Thanks for all the replies. I have worked a lot on gassers- but the TDI is a bit out of my realm of comfort. I have never seen a cartridge filter before.

I'm just going to leave it in for around 5,000 and then change it. It is still a shock at how black that oil is right after an oil change. Gotta change the way I think about a few things.
You can actually use the filter for up to 30,000 miles !!!!! My last OCI was actually @ 30,700 miles. Changing oil and filter @ 5,000 miles is a severe waste of time, money, resources, and indeed makes more wear metals, i.e., MORE AGGRESSIVE wear patterns. I would use a minimum of the VW recommendation which is @ 10,000 miles OCI. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=296388
 
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puter

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Change the filter every 10k as recommended by VW.

It's cheap, doing it every 30k just puts more risk to your engine without significant monetary savings.
 

ruking

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puter

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Counter intuitively, it actually puts out LESS risk per snap shot UOA's . That is unless one considers less aggressive wear metals... more risky.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=296388
Am I reading his post correctly that he has a non-stock oil filter set up?

If so, it would seem to me that for the change interval to apply to the OP he would need to have the same set up.
 

ruking

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Am I reading his post correctly that he has a non-stock oil filter set up?

If so, it would seem to me that for the change interval to apply to the OP he would need to have the same set up.
My take of his post is that he bought a "FRAM" brand filter. However the ones I have seen locally (not his exactly but I am ASSUMING they are the same and he has not contradicted it) are they are repackaged Mann filters, aka Mann does oem work for VW.
 

Bob_Fout

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Counter intuitively, it actually puts out LESS risk per snap shot UOA's . That is unless one considers less aggressive wear metals... more risky.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=296388
Unfortunately Pete thought UOAs were accurate down to the ppm when he made that post.

The principle of longer intervals not always being bad is correct, the analysis is wholly wrong. A correct analysis would be wear rates remained the same. Margin of error PLUS real world impact negates any minor variation.

3.3 ppm Fe/ 10K and 2.95 ppm Fe / 10K are so close to the same it does not matter, even if it was accurate and not simply margin of error. Absolutely no real world, functional difference. Same goes for the rest of the wear metals.
 

puter

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but, didn't he have a secondary oil filter? If so, wouldn't that impact the results as compared to a stock oil filter system.

All I'm saying is to stick with the 10k interval for a stock system.
 

ruking

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Unfortunately Pete thought UOAs were accurate down to the ppm when he made that post.

The principle of longer intervals not always being bad is correct, the analysis is wholly wrong. A correct analysis would be wear rates remained the same. Margin of error PLUS real world impact negates any minor variation.

3.3 ppm Fe/ 10K and 2.95 ppm Fe / 10K are so close to the same it does not matter, even if it was accurate and not simply margin of error. Absolutely no real world, functional difference. Same goes for the rest of the wear metals.
He (I will let him speak for himself) and I more directly really put UOA's in context. You and I have discussed this in other threads, so I will not reprint. I think your analysis that the analysis done is wholly wrong is ...wrong. Now while a 5,000 miles UOA was NOT done, you seem to indicate that it would be even more benign, which would go against the results indicated in both the 10,000 miles OCI and 22,000 miles OCI's. So for example if any UOA from 1,000 miles to 30,000 miles are statistically shown to be fine, why would anyone want to do shorter intervals, UNLESS they were experiencing statistically ODD issues? In other threads, (concerning this subject) you have steadfastly refused to deal with this and other issues. Indeed you refuse to address the simple issue posed by drivbiwire

..."You see everything I saw, makes you wonder why anybody would perform an early oil change!"...
 
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jettawreck

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I have for quite a while replaced the OEM filter every other oil change. Paticles in the filter stay in the filter. They are quite capable of running far more than 20K (two 10K oil changes). People make way too big of a deal out of oil filters. Have you ever seen a healthy TDI running good speced oil clog up, or even start to fill up, an oil filter? I don't think so. Leaves a bunch of dirty oil behind to contaminate the new oil? NO. The oil you should be running is capable of going double, or more, the 10K interval (as many do, UOA or not) so why would a half pint or so ruin the almost 4 qts of new oil? Worry less.
Its not about being too cheap to spring for the extra $8 for a new filter every 10K, that's a non-issue. Its just a why waste it if its still got a lot of use left in it? Plus there is less disposal hassle. European spec cars (different oil perhaps) run 30K+, on the same filter. If you have recently done major work on an engine, or had issues, then more frequent oil/filter changes may be a great maintainance practice.
You have to do what you are comfortable with on your vehicle. Your results can and will vary. This schedule works for me, maybe not others.
 
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ruking

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I have for quite a while replaced the OEM filter every other oil change. Paticles in the filter stay in the filter. They are quite capable of running far more than 20K (two 10K oil changes). People make way too big of a deal out of oil filters. Have you ever seen a healthy TDI running good speced oil clog up, or even start to fill up, an oil filter? I don't think so. Leaves a bunch of dirty oil behind to contaminate the new oil? NO. The oil you should be running is capable of going double, or more, the 10K interval (as many do, UOA or not) so why would a half pint or so ruin the almost 4 qts of new oil? Worry less.
Its not about being too cheap to spring for the extra $8 for a new filter every 10K, that's a non-issue. Its just a why waste it if its still got a lot of use left in it? Plus there is less disposal hassle. European spec cars (different oil perhaps) run 30K+, on the same filter. If you have recently done major work on an engine, or had issues, then more frequent oil/filter changes may be a great maintainance practice.
You have to do what you are comfortable with on your vehicle. Your results can and will vary. This schedule works for me, maybe not others.
I would agree. The "frighters" really try to bully with the "too cheap" taunt. To me it is all about hooking up with the realities !!?? The realities more often than not (unless others that read this are indeed experiencing odd statistical anomalies) are as YOU say !! It is not rocket science !!! Its....lubrication.

I mean really no "frighter" has sent me a prepaid UOA bottle/s for me to send off a UOA to a lab of their choice; for either snapshots or trend analysis on my 03 TDI with 25,000 miles to 30,700 miles OCI's !!?? Why? I think they are really afraid what I am actually doing is... just fine !!!???

So in the last analysis it is not what I think or how well or not I argue the points, it is really a testament on how "maintenance" free the VW TDI really IS and/or can be. and ... how rugged it really is. I mean if one can do a very (from most ) aggressive 1,000 miles OCI to (lesser aggressive) 30,000 miles OCI and the thing will normally last far longer than most folks statistically keep most cars (even TDI's) life is good !!??

This is not to say that VW has the lock on what I said. I actually run a 04 Honda Civic with 114,000 miles on 20,000 miles OCI's. Filters actually run the gambit, ie. best sales from the EXPENSIVE FRAM 2.75 per to WalMart everyday price on Champion Labs filters @ 2.12 per. I do run Mobil One 0w20 and 5w20.
 
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jettawreck

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I would agree the "frighters" really try to bully with the "too cheap" taunt. To me it is all about hooking up with the realities !!?? The realities more often than not (unless others that read this are indeed experiencing odd statistical anomalies) are as YOU say !! It is not rocket science !!! Its....lubrication.
Yeah, even after 20K, upon inspection (not analysis-just close examination) there is very little of anything in the filter. I'm sure if someone wanted to leave the thing in there for several intervals it would be fine, but I'm not comfortable with that-yet.;)
 

Bob_Fout

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He (I will let him speak for himself) and I more directly really put UOA's in context. You and I have discussed this in other threads, so I will not reprint. I think your analysis that the analysis done is wholly wrong is ...wrong. Now while a 5,000 miles UOA was NOT done, you seem to indicate that it would be even more benign, which would go against the results indicated in both the 10,000 miles OCI and 22,000 miles OCI's. So for example if any UOA from 1,000 miles to 30,000 miles are statistically shown to be fine, why would anyone want to do shorter intervals, UNLESS they were experiencing statistically ODD issues? In other threads, (concerning this subject) you have steadfastly refused to deal with this and other issues. Indeed you refuse to address the simple issue posed by drivbiwire

..."You see everything I saw, makes you wonder why anybody would perform an early oil change!"...
I can only direct both parties [yourself and Pete] involved to BITOG to ask actual SMEs about how accurate UOAs are and how they should be used. I've done this.

Any issues I refuse to address could be because they're not germane to the discussion at hand.

Margin of error and repeatability are in high school and college Chemistry.
 
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ruking

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Yeah, even after 20K, upon inspection (not analysis-just close examination) there is very little of anything in the filter. I'm sure if someone wanted to leave the thing in there for several intervals it would be fine, but I'm not comfortable with that-yet.;)
On a practical basis, I do agree with you. To wit, I do change the oil filters SHORT of 30,000 miles, well ... not last time, @ 30,700 miles. I suspect however there is @ least a 2x safety factor built in, i.e. 60,000 miles. I am sure this discussion will have a certain percentage of the audience shooting coffee out onto the computer screen, but that is not the intent.
 

ruking

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I can only direct both parties [yourself and Pete] involved to BITOG to ask actual SMEs about how accurate UOAs are and how they should be used. I've done this.

Any issues I refuse to address could be because they're not germane to the discussion at hand.

Margin of error and repeatability are in high school and college Chemistry.
So what you are saying is that UOA's of short OCI's have no/less/more margin of error and repeatability? You are also ignoring the basic purpose of UOA's TREND lines. Are you really making a case for you having to repeat HS and college chemistry?
 
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Bob_Fout

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So what you are saying is that UOA's of short OCI's have no/less/more margin of error and repeatability? Are you really making a case for you having to repeat HS and college chemistry?
Interval has no bearing on margin of error and repeatability. It's inherent in the UOA analysis process.
 
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