NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

lynnejohn

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CT
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2010 Jetta TDI
yeah, you are probably right. Now that you mention it, I don't recall any big truck stops in all the 35 years I lived in Connecticut. They are like the wallpaper around here though.
There are two in CT. One at the 84/695 Junction (Travel America or something like that) and a Pilot down on 95 in Milford (filled my 85 Jetta there one time, should have seen the faces of the truckers when I pulled into one of their spots...)
 

bfalke1

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2013 Golf TDI, Tech Package, 6MT, 4 door - SOLD
If I had one of these CR diesels, I would buy fuel at a high volume truck stop.
That is definitely a thought, but what occurs to me, is that we just need to visit the newest stations in our area. I have been fueling, since I got my car, at an HEB gas station that has now only been open for about 1 year - 15 months.

Granted I am working from the assumption that it takes many years for such a large amount of water and contaminates to accumulate in a tank.
 

tditom

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The Chevrons in this area have the "0 to 5% biodiesel" label on them. Makes me feel good using them :)
 

Lightflyer1

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Filled up at one today near my house on the way into work. Checked the sticker and it was just like yours, but so are most around here. Now to add my OptiLube test sample when I get home. I am testing a gallon of the special deal offered here. No noticeable changes since I started using it last tank.
 

MotoWPK

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Wow interesting post on the mbworld forum, poor JenB.

Here is something that I picked up off the thread that may be helpful to readers on this site:

This is an internal Shell document to retailers regarding this issue. I think it is a good read for any of us that use diesel:

http://www.shellsource.com/NR/rdonly...onDocFINAL.pdf

What I took away from this is that if the dispenser is pumping slowly, that is a huge red flag to stop pumping.

sorry link to the shellsource is disabled...but still a helpful tip from the original poster.
Interesting - just had a 'slow fill' the other day, in fact so slow that after filling from 1/4 to 1/2 tank I gave up.

So how about this scenario:
If the slow fill occurs at the station you always fill up at and have a long, continuous record of receipts from that station, do you finish the last half tank of fill at another station or do you go back to the regular station?

Completing the fill elsewhere addresses concerns the slow pumping at your regular station may indicate contaminated fuel, but if that is the case and damage is already being done (1/4 tank of diesel from the 'slow fill' station is already in the tank), if there is a failure do you want to compromise a claim to the station by breaking your receipt record of exclusive fillups there?
 

bfalke1

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2013 Golf TDI, Tech Package, 6MT, 4 door - SOLD
The Chevrons in this area have the "0 to 5% biodiesel" label on them. Makes me feel good using them :)
They HEB where I fuel says something similar - As I recall it says "contains up to 5% biodiesel".

Texas has more stringent Cetane Rating rules than the US as a whole though, so this may be common to increase the CN (Texas requires a minimum 48 Cetane Rating, as opposed to only 40 nationally).

I wish they were required to label CN at the pump.
 

kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Or do you not worry about the exclusive fill and just motor on
 

HarleyGuy

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There are two truck stops near the western border of Connecticut, if I recall correctly. Truck stops almost-always have the cheapest price for gasoline and diesel.
We own a 2009 JSW TDI with less than 30K on it and it occurs to me that VW will stop replacing HPFPs before ours blows.
Replace the pump every time you replace the timing belt. In my old Dodge car the dealer did that anyway (except it was the water pump they replaced).
 
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Softrockrenegade

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None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
Interesting - just had a 'slow fill' the other day, in fact so slow that after filling from 1/4 to 1/2 tank I gave up.

So how about this scenario:
If the slow fill occurs at the station you always fill up at and have a long, continuous record of receipts from that station, do you finish the last half tank of fill at another station or do you go back to the regular station?

Completing the fill elsewhere addresses concerns the slow pumping at your regular station may indicate contaminated fuel, but if that is the case and damage is already being done (1/4 tank of diesel from the 'slow fill' station is already in the tank), if there is a failure do you want to compromise a claim to the station by breaking your receipt record of exclusive fillups there?
That's just the filter on the tank getting a bit clogged . They will change it and all will be back to normal next fill. I wouldn't sweat it.
 

John96895

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RI
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"The Document"....... Wow!!!:eek::eek::eek: Page 4/8, has anyone yet to confirm if that is a mason jar of diesel..... or diarrhea? Scary!
 

Second Turbo

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2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
I'd buy a new TDI tommorrow were it not so

> Replace the pump every time you replace the timing belt.

That's been suggested in this thread before. Issues:

  • There's no assurance that buys you any real protection. If the existing pump had started to fail, the system is still circulating seeds of death for the new pump. If the existing pump was not failing, the swap is needless.
  • It's not cheap. It costs more than a TB job, which is also not cheap, and is itself a significant contributor to net $/mile operating cost.

In addition to having to worry about fuel quality and misfueling, which TDI owners never had to worry about before, the HPFP adds the issues of:

  • no practical way to monitor fuel system health
  • no practical way to prevent the failure
  • no way to predict the failure
  • no way to prevent the collateral damage of the failure
  • no simple way to insure against the failure
  • no assurance, that at some arbitrary future date, VW will still have your back (or will have a knife in your back)
 

HarleyGuy

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scdevon's been here a whole month already and now he's an expert....:rolleyes:
Just because someone is new HERE does not mean he is new to the internet. I've been posting to online forums since 1988. We have no idea how long scdevon's been around on various other forums (or how much prior knowledge he brings to the table).
 

HarleyGuy

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Also that some additives make the scar rating worse!
Is one of those additives Amsoil Diesel Fuel additive? Because I'd rather know NOW rather than after I spend $150 buying a carton of the stuff. Spicer's testing (link below) suggests only these additives are good enough to make the diesel meet the 460 wearscar spec:

1) 2% REG SoyPower biodiesel
HFRR 221, 415 micron improvement.
50:1 ratio of baseline fuel to 100% biodiesel
66.56 oz. of 100% biodiesel per 26 gallons of diesel fuel
Price: market value

2)Opti-Lube XPD
Multi-purpose + anti-gel
cetane improver, demulsifier
HFRR 317, 319 micron improvement.
256:1 ratio
13 oz/tank
$4.35/tank

3)FPPF RV, Bus, SUV Diesel/Gas fuel treatment
Gas and Diesel
cetane improver, emulsifier
HFRR 439, 197 micron improvement
640:1 ratio
5.2 oz/tank
$2.60/tank

4)Opti-Lube Summer Blend

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728
 
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kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
> Replace the pump every time you replace the timing belt.

That's been suggested in this thread before. Issues:

  • There's no assurance that buys you any real protection. If the existing pump had started to fail, the system is still circulating seeds of death for the new pump. If the existing pump was not failing, the swap is needless.
  • It's not cheap. It costs more than a TB job, which is also not cheap, and is itself a significant contributor to net $/mile operating cost.
In addition to having to worry about fuel quality and misfueling, which TDI owners never had to worry about before, the HPFP adds the issues of:

  • no practical way to monitor fuel system health
  • no practical way to prevent the failure
  • no way to predict the failure
  • no way to prevent the collateral damage of the failure
  • no simple way to insure against the failure
  • no assurance, that at some arbitrary future date, VW will still have your back (or will have a knife in your back)
Or you go ahead and buy one (or two in my case) with an eye open and don't worry about it until or if it happens. You can't go through life worrying about all the "what ifs". It's still a very small percent of failures for all of the CR TDIs (09-13) that are on the road.
 

STEye

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MD
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08 STI / 12 Impreza
It wouldn't matter as much if the repair wasn't $8K-10K. Most people want to keep their TDI past 60K miles and having this possible repair bill lingering over their heads is enough to upset a lot of people. 2.3% is not very small IMO.
 

RabbitGTI

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Wisconsin
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B4 Passat Sedan
I keep revisiting this thread. I have had a moment of enlightenment. Buy a loaded up, luxurious common rail TDI. Enjoy it until the HPFP pukes. Then swap in a two-liter, 8V gas motor for a fraction of $8,000. Drive it for another 250,000 miles trouble free miles. Might be the best solution. Anyone got a blowed up one sitting around? :D
 

pknopp

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2012 Jetta Sportwagen
It wouldn't matter as much if the repair wasn't $8K-10K. Most people want to keep their TDI past 60K miles and having this possible repair bill lingering over their heads is enough to upset a lot of people. 2.3% is not very small IMO.
It's been noted over and over that 8K is the dealers inflated figure. Even 5k is indeed a ton of money but I will bet that guru's will have the cost down below even this in the future.
 

WutGas?

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It wouldn't matter as much if the repair wasn't $8K-10K. Most people want to keep their TDI past 60K miles and having this possible repair bill lingering over their heads is enough to upset a lot of people. 2.3% is not very small IMO.
As stated, it's not 8K-10K. For some reason on this board, everyone knows not to go to the dealer for repairs and pay retail, yet when it comes to this issue, everyone continues to throw around this huge number from the same dealers we condemn that includes replacing everything, even though it's not needed. Just as a 40K service shouldn't cost $900, and a timing belt replacement isn't 2K, this HPFP is not nearly as expensive as some make it out to be.

From a different thread...

oilhammer said:
You seem to be hung up on something that is a little off. Because this "$8k" figure is crazy. That is VW list price for EVERYTHING in the fuel system, which is crazy but if they are footing the bill (which they will) they don't care. Unlike bankrupt GM, VAG isn't hurting for money (they are actually buying up even more companies.... the Ducati motorcycle is the latest).

The HPFP is a $1200 part, and if the fuel system is cleaned properly, nothing else but the filter really NEEDS to be changed. It is a CYA thing, that's all.

And as soon as the aftermarket gets ahead of these, the HPFP will probably be more like $700, and for anyone REALLY worried, they can just proactively replace it at 120k with the belt if you are really that paranoid.

I've seen and examined, a few times, every single part that was replaced in one of these scenarios. Much of the stuff, like the pipes, the fuel rail, the filter cannister, etc. is overboard and totally unnecessary, so back the $8k failtrain up a bit.

I am in no way saying there is no issue here, not at all. But the Sky Is Falling crowd really need to find a hobby and move on with your lives. Seems lately every thread on this site that is at all related to 2009+ cars inevitably becomes another HPFP thread, and then we have clowns that feel the need to start yet ANOTHER thread about how they got scared and sold their car. Nuts, it really is. I am happy you sold it, just be happier if you went, too. Festivus Syndrome.
 

truman

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columbia,MO,usa
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'05 Passat Variant, Still miss the 03JW
So what is the estimated cost at this time for a guru to replace the pump and associated carnage cleanup?
 
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Second Turbo

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Wither the TDI

> Damage is likely soon to be mitigated.

Buy an aftermarket mod that may void the warranty, and will cost how much?

My ALH had, and probably still has, design defects. All of them except the 01M and console fittings were covered under warranty or recall. The 01M made it to 253K, which I thought was an adequate service life. The console latch & hinge, OK, I spent $15 for some aftermarket engineering, at 276K.

But the various notions of keeping all your fuel receipts, or even samples, of swapping pumps with TBs, or installing aftermarket self-destruct containment systems ... what is this saying about what has become of this previously rational product line?
 

DEZLBOY

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Arlington VA
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> But the various notions of keeping all your fuel receipts, or even samples, of swapping pumps with TBs, or installing aftermarket self-destruct containment systems ... what is this saying about what has become of this previously rational product line?
Bingo!:(
 

pknopp

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WV
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> Damage is likely soon to be mitigated.

Buy an aftermarket mod that may void the warranty, and will cost how much?
Why would I bother while VW would be picking up the tab?

But the various notions of keeping all your fuel receipts, or even samples, of swapping pumps with TBs, or installing aftermarket self-destruct containment systems ... what is this saying about what has become of this previously rational product line?
I do not keep my receipts, I do not sample. I get diesel at the cheapest place. Should I have to add an additional filter? No, but it's really not a big deal.
 

pleopard

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"There's a passionate expert in all of us." Note this comment in the footer of the Shell document. I think some of us can relate to this. :)
 

JBell

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How in the world is one supposed to differentiate between high use and non-high use stations?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

40X40

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How in the world is one supposed to differentiate between high use and non-high use stations?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let us start with the most obvious... The greater the number of D2 pumps at a particular station, the more likely it does a high volume of Diesel sales.

The cheaper the price at the pump... the more likely... etc.

You get the idea. Simple observation and deduction.

Bill
 
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