MayorDJQ
Top Post Dawg
Which hose did you check? The driver's side on mine was nearly spotless as many others have reported. The one that's problematic is the passenger side.
Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!
- Thread starter GraniteRooster
- Start date
boomvang
Veteran Member
The passenger side was the only side I pulled. I was quite happy because the driving that I've been doing is the kind that has been reported as being problematic.
UberVW_TDI
Veteran Member
Randomly looking inside your intercooler hose and not finding water doesn't mean your car is somehow immune to this issue.
The water doesn't simply collect in the intercooler and wait to be dumped out by you opening the intercooler hoses. The water gets pushed through the engine, and you won't know its occurring except if the amount is enough to cause the rough idle, or starting issues discussed throughout this thread.
This issue is unique in that it only occurs under specific conditions. And those conditions are not 100% clear.
I've had it happen to me twice. Both times I found water in my intercooler. First time ~2 cups. Second time ~3/4 cup.
Last oil change I also pulled the intercooler hoses just to check them. Bone dry.
VW customer service told me they are working on a fix and they expected it to be released the first week of March. Still nothing.
Has anyone got any specifics on what the "fix" is and when VW will release?
VW customer care said they would call me as soon as it's released. I've heard nothing so far.
The water doesn't simply collect in the intercooler and wait to be dumped out by you opening the intercooler hoses. The water gets pushed through the engine, and you won't know its occurring except if the amount is enough to cause the rough idle, or starting issues discussed throughout this thread.
This issue is unique in that it only occurs under specific conditions. And those conditions are not 100% clear.
I've had it happen to me twice. Both times I found water in my intercooler. First time ~2 cups. Second time ~3/4 cup.
Last oil change I also pulled the intercooler hoses just to check them. Bone dry.
VW customer service told me they are working on a fix and they expected it to be released the first week of March. Still nothing.
Has anyone got any specifics on what the "fix" is and when VW will release?
VW customer care said they would call me as soon as it's released. I've heard nothing so far.
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Very good post.
Do not freak when I start this.
In my area there is a narrow window of conditions that cause ice or at the worst freezes or ice storms. I hope not to miss one of these conditions.
1..Moisture at low temperature to form frost, but in the ultimate form rain and freezing temperatures at the same time to form ice.
2..Temperature with moisture that is just around freezing is the thing that really surprises us.
The intake tract is the same way. Get enough humidity from air, mist or even the combustion process and get the right temperature and you get water running down a tube, frost in the same tube or water. This intake responds just like a window pane or wet tin on the inside of a metal roofed building (raining on inside of building) or ice on the same window pane. To complicate all this the pressure in the intake tract causes situations that are outside of the paramaters we are used to. Going down the highway is just like being in a gale force wind (chill factor).
If you get frost or ice it thaws to yield water. In just the right situation you may get just water. No engineer can forsee every possible situation. At least in my mind they would be streached to get a 100% cure.
You can deal with temperature. You need an automatic thermostat on the intake tract. It can be valves to bypass boost around the intercooler or a cover / blind for the air that flows through the intercooler.
You can deal with moisture removal. You need a defrost cycle if you are removing frost or ice. It may have to be hot water around the intake tract where the ice forms (water carrying coil). A complex monitoring system will have to turn the defrost cycle on. If the intake tract develops a vacuum then the You need an automatic under boost defrost / drain to remove a water, frost or ice blockage. If you have a water sensor in the pipe you need a drain under boost.
Complex beyond my little redneck brain. I would think complex for a team of VW engineers. I do know all that can happen. The only fixes that can be done by most: partially block the air flowing over the intercooler and drain the offending area under boost (into a tank with a water sensor)
I know I went from window panes to intercooler tracts. I also know when I owned air-cooled VWs the carburetor icing would occur when you did not expect it.
eddif
El Dobro
Top Post Dawg
Did they say March of what year? After all, this is VW.
boomvang
Veteran Member
Randomly looking inside your intercooler hose and not finding water doesn't mean your car is somehow immune to this issue.
Way to kill a buzz, dude.
richardvw6
Member
intercooler fix
had the same problem occur with my 09' told of a partial fix by vw canada,ie removal of air inlet pipe that is between the front grill and the airfilter box, results are that warm air is drawn in instead of cold damp air, i found that covering the left [driver] side of the grill with a vynil or fabric cover to deflect the cold and damp air away from the inlet port, it will not effect performance as the pipe is open at the back side and will draw in warm dry air, it also lets the engine run a liitle warmer which is pro diesel, ive done this for 2 months now [feb\mar] and havn't had a problem since
had the same problem occur with my 09' told of a partial fix by vw canada,ie removal of air inlet pipe that is between the front grill and the airfilter box, results are that warm air is drawn in instead of cold damp air, i found that covering the left [driver] side of the grill with a vynil or fabric cover to deflect the cold and damp air away from the inlet port, it will not effect performance as the pipe is open at the back side and will draw in warm dry air, it also lets the engine run a liitle warmer which is pro diesel, ive done this for 2 months now [feb\mar] and havn't had a problem since
740GLE
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2009
- Location
- NH
- TDI
- 2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
between that an partial blocking of the IC i think is the easiest fix before VW gets around to it. BTW it'll be another 8 months before I have to worry about it again, it was 70 yesterday but today its 35 and spitting snow, HA!
gpshumway
Veteran Member
Breaking news: warmer weather coming the first week of March.
Just kidding - hopefully they come up with something legit soon.
sgoldste01
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2010
- Location
- Webster, NY
- TDI
- None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
OK, so I just had my first hard-to-start issue with my 2010 Golf yesterday evening. Almost couldn't get it started, but finally did after a couple of minutes of cranking. Nearly full tank of fuel, with only 70 miles since last fill-up.
Came home and read through this thread. It seemed like my car was a perfect candidate for this issue: almost exactly one year old, 12k miles on the ODO, living in upstate NY climate.
This morning I pulled the intercooler hose on the passenger side, expecting a big amount of glop to fall out. Wrong! Here's what I saw:
As you can see, there was hardly anything in the hose or plastic tube at all. Could this still be the cause of my hard start yesterday, or should I be blaming something else (and if so, what else should I blame)?
By the way, re-installing the plastic deflector shield on the bottom of the car is a royal PITA. What's the secret to getting the two front tabs with the little nubs on them to slide home? Sheesh!
Came home and read through this thread. It seemed like my car was a perfect candidate for this issue: almost exactly one year old, 12k miles on the ODO, living in upstate NY climate.
This morning I pulled the intercooler hose on the passenger side, expecting a big amount of glop to fall out. Wrong! Here's what I saw:
As you can see, there was hardly anything in the hose or plastic tube at all. Could this still be the cause of my hard start yesterday, or should I be blaming something else (and if so, what else should I blame)?
By the way, re-installing the plastic deflector shield on the bottom of the car is a royal PITA. What's the secret to getting the two front tabs with the little nubs on them to slide home? Sheesh!
Rather Be Biking
Veteran Member
It's still below freezing, so there wouldn't be water. But people usually find ice at the low point in the system.
MayorDJQ
Top Post Dawg
Yeah, the trick is that you have to use a finger to try to angle the slanted tip of the tab down as much as possible. Work from one tab to the next.
At 20K I think I'll use the Dremel to slice the slanted tips off.
740GLE
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2009
- Location
- NH
- TDI
- 2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
What was the temps when you shut the car off before the hard start (my guess below freezing)
What were the temps when you had your hard start (my guess above freezing)
How long did you drive the car after your hard start just before you took those pics? how'd you drive it?
If you drove the car warmer weather (mid 30's for say 30-40 miles), the condensation could have been sucked out of the IC.
sgoldste01
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2010
- Location
- Webster, NY
- TDI
- None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
Temps when I shut off the car before the hard start was below freezing.
Temps when I had the hard start was right around freezing, but the sun was out, so it's possible that it was above freezing in the engine compartment.
Once I got the car started, I drove it 15 miles. I drove it normally, or possibly a little more gingerly than normal because I didn't trust the car's ability to get me to my destination (I hadn't read this thread yet, so I had no background knowledge). After that 15-mile drive, the car sat for an hour, after which I drove it another 10 miles to my house. It started normally after sitting for that hour.
It then sat in my garage overnight while I read this thread. The next morning, I took the pics after only running the car long enough to move it from the right side of the garage to the left so that I could work under the passenger side of the car.
So my question to the forum is this: What is a person supposed to do about this? I mean, I was at my office when the car wouldn't start. I was completely un-equipped to get under the car and do anything other than crank it for 2 minutes until it started, or give up and have the car towed someplace. If driving the car as you described is what cleared out my intercooler hoses, then why am I reading things in this thread like "Check your intercooler hoses every 10k when you do an oil change"? Isn't that silly, since the hoses can clear themselves? The 10k intercooler check would only make sense if the gunk collected in the hose and **stayed there** until the hoses were cleaned out.
Please don't take offense to my questions; I really am trying to learn from where you were going with your questions. But what's confusing me is that your questions lead me to believe that finding something in the hoses is completely hit-or-miss depending on the weather conditions and how the car is driven, and that putting a 10k interval on checking the hoses is silly, depending on what the weather happens to be like when 10k miles has passed and you decide to get under the car to see what's going on.
Non-CR-owner here, but I've been following this thread. I think the answer is that if there's enough gunk in there to hydro-lock the engine, you sure don't WANT to clear it by driving. Sometimes the gunk/water will come out in drops, and sometimes it's a big GULP! which can kill your engine. It doesn't take much gunk to bend rods and do very nasty things.
sgoldste01
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2010
- Location
- Webster, NY
- TDI
- None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
But what do you do about it if the hard start happens at a time/place when you can't get under the car? This was my situation: I was leaving work at the end of the day, and had to make it to an important appointment. Getting under the car was not an option. If I couldn't get the car started, I would have missed my appointment, which also wasn't an option. So I cranked the car for two minutes until it started, and hoped for the best. What else could I have done?
Let's face it--we can't always fix these things immediately, at the time and place they occur.
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
If it's that mission-critical that you cannot miss the appointment, then get a more reliable car, a trunk bike, AND arrange backup transportation.
sgoldste01
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2010
- Location
- Webster, NY
- TDI
- None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
What a ridiculous proposal, for someone who paid $25k for a car that's less than a year old, and that got an above-average reliability score in Consumer Reports.
40X40
Experienced
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Consumer Reports is not the be-all, end-all. We were saying that back when they were underrating TDI reliability (because of the 1.8Ts and Touaregs), and I'm saying that now that they're overrating TDI reliability due to the complexity of the modern TDI engines.
Oh, and Rule #1 of VW: Never, ever, ever buy the first model year of any VW until a few years have passed, and the bugs have been worked out in the existing cars. (Granted, you bought a 2010, so not the first year of the common rail, but that was the first model year of the Mk6 and the first model year of the CJAA...)
By the way, the trunk bike was half-joking. But, really, cars are not perfect. Even if I had the most reliable car, if there were an appointment that I absolutely had to get to, and it were a life-or-death thing, I'd consider asking a friend to be on standby, in case I had a problem.
Oh, and Rule #1 of VW: Never, ever, ever buy the first model year of any VW until a few years have passed, and the bugs have been worked out in the existing cars. (Granted, you bought a 2010, so not the first year of the common rail, but that was the first model year of the Mk6 and the first model year of the CJAA...)
By the way, the trunk bike was half-joking. But, really, cars are not perfect. Even if I had the most reliable car, if there were an appointment that I absolutely had to get to, and it were a life-or-death thing, I'd consider asking a friend to be on standby, in case I had a problem.
I just tend to look for solutions. I try not to look at whose fault it is or that I should not have to be experiencing a problem (I do not always succeed).
I know when I mention this some will think well that is a gas burner solution. I will try and update the idea for modern times and for a diesel.
The old gas burner carb preheat:
1..Put a shroud around the exhaust manifold
2..Put a hose from the shroud to the air intake
3..Put a bi-metalic thermal valve to select air: either from the pre-heated exhaust manifold air, or the normal air intake.
Good Results:
1..Warm air for cold start ups / warm ups.
2..Cooler air for after warm ups.
Bad Results:
1..Dust from road was drawn up into air intake
2..Some installations never had cool clean grill area air intake, just underhood air.
+++++++++++++++++++
How to upgrade the system for a modern diesel:
1..Take a second grill air intake tube to the exhaust manifold area.
2..Shroud the hot parts to pick up heat.
3..Put a higher tech control valve to select hot or original grill area alir. (Possibly a high tech electronic assisted diverter).
4..Put a winter / summer selector.
5..Put a defrost cycle in the system to allow ice melting if begins to be needed. In a total clogged situation it would not work, but hopefully it would halp prevent that total clog.
6.. Put a drain on the passenger side water collection area, now that you can warm up the air (defrost cycle).
Good Results:
1..Clean warm air quickly
2..Cool clean air when you need it.
3..Defrost cycle
4..It uses existing ideas, and does not need a lot of non existing technology.
Bad Results:
1..Plenty of more complicated devices to go wrong. (It might take a good bit of development)
2..More stuff in the way to crowd an already crowded engine compartment.
3..It might not be VW original equipment.
+++++++++++++
Conclusion:
Although this is somewhat complicated it does not cover an intercooler (it is always ready to work, even if the new system fails). It gives enough heat to hopefully prevent icing, and with electronic help it gives the ability to add heat at needed times / situations. If a backyard engineer wanted to do his own version there are a huge number of cars that had the warm up air valve to do your own version.
eddif
I know when I mention this some will think well that is a gas burner solution. I will try and update the idea for modern times and for a diesel.
The old gas burner carb preheat:
1..Put a shroud around the exhaust manifold
2..Put a hose from the shroud to the air intake
3..Put a bi-metalic thermal valve to select air: either from the pre-heated exhaust manifold air, or the normal air intake.
Good Results:
1..Warm air for cold start ups / warm ups.
2..Cooler air for after warm ups.
Bad Results:
1..Dust from road was drawn up into air intake
2..Some installations never had cool clean grill area air intake, just underhood air.
+++++++++++++++++++
How to upgrade the system for a modern diesel:
1..Take a second grill air intake tube to the exhaust manifold area.
2..Shroud the hot parts to pick up heat.
3..Put a higher tech control valve to select hot or original grill area alir. (Possibly a high tech electronic assisted diverter).
4..Put a winter / summer selector.
5..Put a defrost cycle in the system to allow ice melting if begins to be needed. In a total clogged situation it would not work, but hopefully it would halp prevent that total clog.
6.. Put a drain on the passenger side water collection area, now that you can warm up the air (defrost cycle).
Good Results:
1..Clean warm air quickly
2..Cool clean air when you need it.
3..Defrost cycle
4..It uses existing ideas, and does not need a lot of non existing technology.
Bad Results:
1..Plenty of more complicated devices to go wrong. (It might take a good bit of development)
2..More stuff in the way to crowd an already crowded engine compartment.
3..It might not be VW original equipment.
+++++++++++++
Conclusion:
Although this is somewhat complicated it does not cover an intercooler (it is always ready to work, even if the new system fails). It gives enough heat to hopefully prevent icing, and with electronic help it gives the ability to add heat at needed times / situations. If a backyard engineer wanted to do his own version there are a huge number of cars that had the warm up air valve to do your own version.
eddif
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
In the rare event that your car does not work when you need it it's difficult to accept that you cannot go where you want to go. I'm thinking back and the only time I can remember being stranded in a car (accidents notwithstanding) was in my Peugeot when a battery terminal broke. And I've been driving since 1972. I do have two children, however, who have caused further damage to their cars (one seized an engine) because they insisted on driving when the car told them not to. They were both VWs, btw.
That aside, the possibility of an issue causing catastrophic damage (water in the engine, HPFP failure) has so far kept me away from common rail VWs. And I really want one. I'm hoping that in 2012 they get this stuff figured out, before the MKVI Golf goes away.
That aside, the possibility of an issue causing catastrophic damage (water in the engine, HPFP failure) has so far kept me away from common rail VWs. And I really want one. I'm hoping that in 2012 they get this stuff figured out, before the MKVI Golf goes away.
sgoldste01
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2010
- Location
- Webster, NY
- TDI
- None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
It's easy to argue against CR's subjective car info (how comfortable it is; how well it handles; how nice the ride is). But CR's reliability data is sound. They are simply gathering car failure data from owners. There's not much to argue about. So if TDIs are now getting above-average reliability scores in CR, then that's simply what the data shows. It's not subjective opinion.
But we're getting off-target with regard to the purpose of this thread....
VolksDudeTDI
Well-known member
Yes...
MayorDJQ
Top Post Dawg
I'm still not convinced that moist intake air is the root cause of this. A contributing factor? Maybe. But if moist intake air was a big factor, why was this not an issue on any previous generation TDI? They're all intercooled.
Plus, no matter where the IA comes from, it still has to go through the heating/cooling of the turbo and IC. Will drawing in slightly warmer air make any difference?
I still think the LP-EGR is the big factor here.
Plus, no matter where the IA comes from, it still has to go through the heating/cooling of the turbo and IC. Will drawing in slightly warmer air make any difference?
I still think the LP-EGR is the big factor here.
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
In investigating problem, don't try to pin everything to one factor. Factors can 'cross-talk' with each other to create the problem. Moist air AND excessive EGR together (may also be other cofactors too) might be source. Seems plausible anyway.
MayorDJQ
Top Post Dawg
True. I may open my boost pipe over the summer to see what's in there.
There were several people who reported many pages ago that removing the "elbow" made no difference.
El Dobro
Top Post Dawg
I had mentioned earlier about blocking the front part of the snorkel in the grill instead of pulling the elbow, but someone said it wouldn't work. I've been cleaning out the hoses every 5000 or so, and haven't had any starting problems. Also, each time I've cleaned it, there's less accumilations.
Has anyone ever checked the throttle/EGR valve in the intake, for any build up?
Has anyone ever checked the throttle/EGR valve in the intake, for any build up?