Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

Holy Scheiße that's a lot of Scheiße!

Has anyone contacted VWoA to find out if there's any update on the status of a fix? Throughout this thread there have been several calls to the VW Tech line and stories from service writers from a TSB to a revised I/C.

Maybe one of our resident VW Techs or sales people has a line on this issue?

Sorry if it's here and I missed it, but I have a potential solution. Mount a washer-fluid tank somewhere where it looks OEM, tap a hole in the bottom of the offending intercooler pipe, run it up to the washer fluid tank, and use vacuum to suck the gunk up into the tank. I'm not sure what the pressures are like in that pipe-- you'd have to take that into account, and not make the tube/tank act like a boost leak.

I think if it were my car, I would rig it up so that it did nothing when the engine was running, but I could schlurp the stuff into the tank manually when I suspected that it was wet. I don't know how much of a PITA it is to get to that pipe, but it seems like it would be nice to have a way to drain the pipe in work clothes (w/o getting all dirty), because the worst time is evidently when it's been sitting in warm garage all night. I'm not going to want to be crawling around on my garage floor before work in the morning.

Do you think VW would be so evil that they would void your warranty for fixing their problem?

Update from post #386:

I went to the VW dealer this afternoon with the water bottle in hand and pictures (shown above).

I was able to talk to the head shop foreman at the local VW dealership.

He said that he has not seen this before. And wasn't aware of this specific issue. That is probably true since we don't get freezing cold weather here very often.

He then went to the VW tech board and read posts about this issue from other dealerships. He opened a new "ticket" on the tech assistance board with my VIN.

As discussed in this thread, the main theory is that its being caused by the new LP-EGR (low pressure exhaust gas recirc) that is new to the CR TDI engine emissions system.




The exhaust has a high moisture content due to water being one of the products from combustion. This moist LP-EGR air is then condensing in the intercooler in specific conditions. Most commonly in cold weather. Most of the time this is not an issue as the moisture goes through the engine with no issues. BUT, if the moisture freezes in the intercooler lines during cold weather, it will collect, melt, puddle up in the intercooler....then you get what I had this morning.

The VW shop foreman told me the VW tech board says that VW is aware of this issue and that corporate is working on a solution. BUT as of yet, no solution has been released.

The directions to the VW techs are:

1. Drain the intercooler inlet and outlet by removing the hoses (as we on this board are already doing)
2. Dry out intercooler as much as possible with compressed air
3. Engineers at VW are working on solution.
4. No fix yet.

My big concern is that this could destroy an engine very easily. I'm not one to be all drama but I hope VW comes up with a real fix for this soon. I don't want to be buying a new engine after the warranty runs out because this happens again in the future and my engine gets a big slug of water upon start up.

Low Pressure EGR "cooler"?

Where is the the lp egr cooler mounted? And how much cooling does it do?

Thanks,

Alec

@UberVW, that's good news on a couple fronts. Do you have (or could you get) any kind of reference number or other means to identify the IC Icing problem in the "VW Tech Board" that the "shop forman" accessed? Would be helpful if any of us are talking to our dealerships and they plead ignorance, we could point them right to the problem in their own system (and using their buzzwords). Good luck, sounds promising and thanks for the update.

Sure here are the Tech Board Ticket details:

Ticket Status: Initiated
Access Code: 704717
Job Number: 48170615

Concern Type: Powertrain, Drivability

Alec said:

Where is the the lp egr cooler mounted? And how much cooling does it do?

Click to expand...

It's tucked away on the back side of the engine somewhere. Not very helpful, but I can't seem to find a diagram of the CBEA/CJAA EGR system in Bentley.

If you look in the CR Self Study, you can see the cooler, it's under the exhaust manifold.

Ugh...after reading some of this thread i think this happend to me twice. I do remember both times it was cold in the morning then when i left work it was much warmer. Both times car started up and then died...Then took two or three more times to get it to start....idled rough and then when i pulled out onto the road it sputterd and and wouldn't accelerate. Then all the sudden it cleared up and ran fine. Car has been running great since the last time it has happened.

El Dobro said:

If you look in the CR Self Study, you can see the cooler, it's under the exhaust manifold.

Click to expand...

Is it the silver rectangle thing that looks slightly smaller than a VHS tape?

MayorDJQ said:

Is it the silver rectangle thing that looks slightly smaller than a VHS tape?

Click to expand...

That's the baby.

This LP-EGR cooler isn't the issue in itself. Its the whole LP-EGR system. Most vehicles only have a HP-EGR not a LP-EGR.
The LP-EGR is unique in that it routes through the MAIN intercooler (located in the front of the car, in front of the radiator). The main intercooler is what is condensing the excessive moisture out of the exhaust gases.
The LP-EGR is full of moist exhaust from the combustion process, which is condensing and then freezing inside the main intercooler in front of the car.
The moisture frozen inside the main front intercooler lines then melt and puddle up in the main intercooler. Then the water stands-by to be pushed into the engine upon the next start-up.

Doesn't it seem strange that this problem wouldn't of been previously discovered during development?

UberVW_TDI said:

Doesn't it seem strange that this problem wouldn't of been previously discovered during development?

Click to expand...

Problem seems to require certain weather conditions and driving profiles. Not every car has had the problem. Range of conditions where problem occurs might be pretty narrow.

Test protocols usually are set to test the machine at the extremes of both the atmospheric and operational envelope. If ok there, then one "figures" that mid range conditions are ok. Not always a good assumption. I bet these guys were under some time pressure too. That's a reality in testing.

Bottom line, owners of these cars are doing the last phase of testing.

Ski in NC said:

...snip...
Bottom line, owners of these cars are doing the last phase of testing.

Click to expand...

Kinda like Microsoft's approach to engineering

<back on topic now>

UberVW_TDI said:

This LP-EGR cooler isn't the issue in itself. Its the whole LP-EGR system. Most vehicles only have a HP-EGR not a LP-EGR.
The LP-EGR is unique in that it routes through the MAIN intercooler (located in the front of the car, in front of the radiator). The main intercooler is what is condensing the excessive moisture out of the exhaust gases.
The LP-EGR is full of moist exhaust from the combustion process, which is condensing and then freezing inside the main intercooler in front of the car.
The moisture frozen inside the main front intercooler lines then melt and puddle up in the main intercooler. Then the water stands-by to be pushed into the engine upon the next start-up.

Click to expand...

Main intercooler? What other intercooler is on the '09+ cars?

Some people were talking about the "EGR cooler" which is located at the beginning of the LP-EGR loop. The main intercooler is labeled "Charge air cooler" in the above drawing.

UberVW_TDI said:

Some people were talking about the "EGR cooler" which is located at the beginning of the LP-EGR loop. The main intercooler is labeled "Charge air cooler" in the above drawing.

Click to expand...

I see, you're just trying to be specific.

The intercooler and LP-EGR cooler are very different things.

Good point. That was poor wording on my part.

I don't think the range of conditions that cause this problem are that narrow. We've got people with issues in NH, CT, WI, and now Texas. I'm guessing this didn't come up in testing because Emissions tuning and testing probably went on simultaneously, and the emissions tuning the cars ended up with in production (or in one of the many re-flashes these cars seem to have had) creates the condition that causes the buildup.

Also makes me wonder when a tuner will come up with an electronic fix.

MayorDJQ said:

I see, you're just trying to be specific.

The intercooler and LP-EGR cooler are very different things.

Click to expand...

What would be nice is that whoever owns the best version of this diagram to mock it up abit .... color coded, arrows, tables, legends ... etc.

If I ever have a moment, perhaps I'll create and post a Visio version that others can expand upon.

CedarPark68 said:

What would be nice is that whoever owns the best version of this diagram to mock it up abit .... color coded, arrows, tables, legends ... etc.

If I ever have a moment, perhaps I'll create and post a Visio version that others can expand upon.

Click to expand...

There are some good diagrams in the VW training guide, but it's copyrighted material so it can't be posted here. However, it's available for download in various places on the internet. Google for variations on this file name "DOC33_IL_40CA_1680_Diesel_Engine_2.0L_TDI_CommonRail_BIN5_UL-1.pdf" you should be able to find it. Lot's of good data, diagrams, and explanations on how the various systems work. If not, PM me your email and I'll send it to you.

http://www.filemount.com/2010/10/se...3-2-0-liter-tdi-common-rail-bin5-ulev-engine/

page 24 and 25 have information about the HP-EGR and LP-EGR systems.

UberVW_TDI said:

Here is the amount I got out of the INTERCOOLER OUTLET HOSE:

I then opened up the Intercooler INLET side and collected even MORE water!

Here is the total amount I got of both the intercooler inlet and outlet side hoses!

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I am not sure which hose UberVW_TDI is referring to. The way I understand it is there is a hot side to the IC (the inlet of the IC connected to the turbocharger) and the cold side (the outlet side of the IC connecting to the engine).

I would expect more water to form on the cold side as any condensation that forms in the IC would be blown through and deposited on the hose on the cold side between the IC and the engine.

But this testimony (if I have read it right) states that most of the water formed on the hot side between the turbocharger and the IC.

Doesn't make sense to me.

tcp_ip_dude said:

Kinda like Microsoft's approach to engineering

<back on topic now>

Click to expand...

With MS, owners are doing the first phase of testing!!!!

Thanks for posting the info about the "self study" guide. I had been thinking that the EGR cooler should be helping reduce the H2O content of the recirculated gasses, and able to dump the extracted condensates back into the exhaust stream, but the temperature range/method of operation is different from what I was thinking.

@UberVW TDI

Thanks for posting that link to the Servive Training Manual. Thats the most/best information I've seen yet on our particular engine. Considering, I cant seem to find factory service manuals anywhere!
Thanks again!

superbutta808 said:

@UberVW TDI

Thanks for posting that link to the Servive Training Manual. Thats the most/best information I've seen yet on our particular engine. Considering, I cant seem to find factory service manuals anywhere!
Thanks again!

Click to expand...

You can get the service manuals direct from Bentley or you can try Amazon.com, eBay etc.

The best service manual I've been able to find is from Bentley Publishing.
Its a hard back. I love it. Good details.

You can buy it on amazon.com for $82.00

http://www.amazon.com/Volkswagen-Je...6166/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1296928720&sr=8-4

Here is the link to bentley. There price is not so great. ($130.00).

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/vo...tion/vw-a5-jetta-repair-manual-2005-2010.html

Jack Frost said:

I am not sure which hose UberVW_TDI is referring to. The way I understand it is there is a hot side to the IC (the inlet of the IC connected to the turbocharger) and the cold side (the outlet side of the IC connecting to the engine).

I would expect more water to form on the cold side as any condensation that forms in the IC would be blown through and deposited on the hose on the cold side between the IC and the engine.

But this testimony (if I have read it right) states that most of the water formed on the hot side between the turbocharger and the IC.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't read too much into it. It could be simple gravity. If the hot side is slightly lower the water may drain there once melted. Could be as simple as a slight slope to the driveway or garage. Either way nearly two cups is a scary amount of water!