TDI vs. 2.0L

I took my TDI to my local dealership (Baron Volkswagen - K.C.) for my 5,000 mile checkup today, and took out a loner car for the day. They gave me the keys to an '03 Jetta 2.0L. Let me say that anyone who buys the 2.0L is making a huge mistake. The differences between it and the TDI are too gigantic to not spend the extra money for the TDI. With the 2.0L, you step on the gas and you can not feel the power that I have come to know and love with my TDI. Plus the plastic hubcabs make the car look horrible. For anyone out there trying to decide between these two engines, trust me, you will make the right decision my taking the TDI.

I don't get why people buy 2.0 myself but VW sure sells lots of them. Just goes to show you that many people don't care about power. They just want a comfortable car that gets them from point A to point B. I used to be pissed that VW offerd an 8 valve gas engine as a base engine in this day and age of multivalves but then I realized something. At the least it costs $100.00 more to produce a multivalve engine. you need one more cam, and twice the valves. You figure if VW sells 1,000,000 2.0's they just saved a minimum of $100,000,000 on people who don't care anyway. That is pretty smart.

Well considering the 2.0 has an EPA estimated fuel econ. Of 24c/32h for the 2.0 and a 42c/50h for the TDi it would take you 15.5 tanks of fuel to realize the saving on fuel economy. You need to make up for the $1180 price difference on the Jetta GLS wagon if only plan on keeping the car for 30k miles though you will never see any savings

Dude, the TDI is an excellent engine but it's not for everyone. And the price difference may be trivial to you, but not everyone. When I bought my '99 2.0L it was the most expensive car I could afford. At that point, I would have probably spent the extra $ on power windows rather than a nicer engine. To each his own. Delight in your fortune of driving a TDI!

(BTW, the standard wheels on the TDI are hubcaps, and I don't think they look that bad! And I would gladly drive a TDI car with hubcaps over a 2.0L with rims!)

The current-generation 8-valve falls a bit short compared to it's earler bretheren. You'll see a lot more modified 8-valves in A2's or A3's than you will 16-valves. The current 8-valve has some reliability issues, and it's not a potent enough engine for todays heavy A4 cars. Also, to look at the hp and torque numbers between the 2.0 and TDI, you'd see why the TDI is more fun. A stock 2.0 will dyno at about 86 hp to the wheels, while a TDI dynos at around 95 hp to the wheels, which is way over it's 90 hp rating. In a stock to stock drag race, a TDI will beat a 2.slow... er, 2.0.

Brendan

I had a '96 Jetta A3 2.0L. I guess everyone has to pay their dues.

Honestly, I didn't think it was so bad at the time. But reliability caught up to it and started losing some ignition timing and compression in one cylinder. I was pretty hard on it though. When my lease was up it got me into the 1.8T, and we lived happily ever after.

I don't get why people buy 2.0 myself but VW sure sells lots of them.

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I can think of lots of reasons. Including:
<ul type="square">
[*]lower initial cost
[*]environmentally more friendly for people who make lots of short trips or drive short distances
[*]lower fuel costs than the 1.8T or VR6 (i.e. runs on regular unleaded)
[/list]

Now before people go crazy on point (2), I'll say that I drive my TDI and I feel I am enviromentally responsible for doing so. However, I drive 80 miles/day, mostly on the highway where everything in my car is at optimal operating temperature. My wife, however, drives ~20 miles/day and makes lots of litte trips. For her, I think the 2.0L is the more environmentally responsible car. The new 2.0L's, in fact, are rated as ULEV vehicles by the EPA.

Well considering the 2.0 has an EPA estimated fuel econ. Of 24c/32h for the 2.0 and a 42c/50h for the TDi it would take you 15.5 tanks of fuel to realize the saving on fuel economy. You need to make up for the $1180 price difference on the Jetta GLS wagon if only plan on keeping the car for 30k miles though you will never see any savings

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Huh? I must be misunderstanding, because it sounds like you are trying to say that in 15.5 tanks of fuel, you make up an $1180 price difference. I did some calcs using the following assumptions:
<ul type="square">
[*]2.0L: $1.549/gallon (reg no-lead) 28 MPG average
[*]TDI: $1.599/gallon 46 MPG
[/list]
This gives a per mile cost of 5.53 cents for the 2.0L and 3.51 cents for the TDI. Therefore, the payback period is 58478 miles, or 92 14-gallon fill-ups in the TDI (compared to 149 fill-ups in the 2.0L).

I had this conversation with a friend of mine a last week. He went from a TDI to a 2.0. Here’s his justification for the 2.0.

- TDI was over $1000 more than the 2.0
- There were 30, 2.0’s on the lot and only 3 TDI’s (just counting Jetta’s)
- He leased the 2.0 for 4 years
- Diesel is more expensive than gas (at least where he and I live, diesel is usually the most expensive fuel)
- Diesel is harder to find and you had to search out a fuel station to get a good price
- The pumps make your hands stink (wife’s complaint)
- He puts 10,000 miles per year on the car
- The TDI averaged 45mpg and the 2.0 averages 28mpg
- The 2.0 runs the same if you put in premium or the cheapest gas you can find

Over a typical year, diesel cost an average of $1.50/gal and gas $1.38. That leads to $333 for diesel and $492 for gas per year. That leads to $159 savings per year. That would take just over 6 years to break even (he took into account a $1000 increase for a TDI). He was obviously prepared to debate the savings of the 2.0. He reads this site at times and knows how some people really get into the cost savings calculations. The leasing vs. buying was another debate but I won’t get into that one.

His previous TDI Jetta (1997) was totaled so he needed another car. He leased a 2000 2.0 Jetta and has only 1 year left. The car has 41,000 miles on it too. He only drives the car back and forth to work and doesn’t really care about power either.

The 2.0 are the leader for VW. They have many on the lot in just about every color and option package. They are cheaper than the TDI and are just as fast. I know that there are many out there that will jump on that last statement like flies on s**t, but just hear me out. Most people I know don’t go out and make constant power runs with their car. In everyday traffic, the 2.0 works just fine. My Audi A6 is slower than my TDI but I don’t have a problem getting around. Here is what I posted a few days ago:

“Here's the way I look at it. Everyone likes to talk about performance (TDI vs 1.8T) but how many times in life does someone actually get the full potential out of their car? At least where I have lived, it has rarely happened. Real world situations see me and everyone else sitting in traffic behind someone else, driving around the city behind someone else, driving on the highway behind someone else and driving around my neighborhood going slow so I don't run over someone. It seems like I'm always behind someone else or the police are regulating my performance potential.”

I still like my TDI but there are many out there who can justify the purchase of a 2.0 over a TDI. Some people like a Golf or Jetta and don’t care about the powerplant. They just want a cool looking car for the cheapest price and the 2.0 can provide that. Then you get people like my neighbor who has a 2000 Jetta VR6 and she’s 70 years old. I don’t think that engine has seen over 3000 rpm. I did a 40,000-mile service a while back and when I went out to drive it, I cleaned it out. It sure ran much better after that.

In conclusion, I’m sticking with the post a while back that claimed diesel owners are smarter. That means that 2.0 owners are dumber? Maybe it’s that there are a lot of dumb people out there.

In conclusion, I’m sticking with the post a while back that claimed diesel owners are smarter. That means that 2.0 owners are dumber? Maybe it’s that there are a lot of dumb people out there.

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at a diesel club one has to pull for what we like.. DIESELS ALL THE WAY BABY!!
I really don't care what type of argument someone tries, bottom line is that our cars are more reliable, more economic, etc.. i would never buy a 2.0, i would rather drive my old rabbit diesel
just my 2 cents.. just love diesels...

I had this conversation with a friend of mine a last week. He went from a TDI to a 2.0. Here’s his justification for the 2.0.

- TDI was over $1000 more than the 2.0
- There were 30, 2.0’s on the lot and only 3 TDI’s (just counting Jetta’s)
- He leased the 2.0 for 4 years
- Diesel is more expensive than gas (at least where he and I live, diesel is usually the most expensive fuel)
- Diesel is harder to find and you had to search out a fuel station to get a good price
- The pumps make your hands stink (wife’s complaint)
- He puts 10,000 miles per year on the car
- The TDI averaged 45mpg and the 2.0 averages 28mpg
- The 2.0 runs the same if you put in premium or the cheapest gas you can find

Over a typical year, diesel cost an average of $1.50/gal and gas $1.38. That leads to $333 for diesel and $492 for gas per year. That leads to $159 savings per year. That would take just over 6 years to break even (he took into account a $1000 increase for a TDI). He was obviously prepared to debate the savings of the 2.0. He reads this site at times and knows how some people really get into the cost savings calculations. The leasing vs. buying was another debate but I won’t get into that one.

His previous TDI Jetta (1997) was totaled so he needed another car. He leased a 2000 2.0 Jetta and has only 1 year left. The car has 41,000 miles on it too. He only drives the car back and forth to work and doesn’t really care about power either.

The 2.0 are the leader for VW. They have many on the lot in just about every color and option package. They are cheaper than the TDI and are just as fast. I know that there are many out there that will jump on that last statement like flies on s**t, but just hear me out. Most people I know don’t go out and make constant power runs with their car. In everyday traffic, the 2.0 works just fine. My Audi A6 is slower than my TDI but I don’t have a problem getting around. Here is what I posted a few days ago:

“Here's the way I look at it. Everyone likes to talk about performance (TDI vs 1.8T) but how many times in life does someone actually get the full potential out of their car? At least where I have lived, it has rarely happened. Real world situations see me and everyone else sitting in traffic behind someone else, driving around the city behind someone else, driving on the highway behind someone else and driving around my neighborhood going slow so I don't run over someone. It seems like I'm always behind someone else or the police are regulating my performance potential.”

I still like my TDI but there are many out there who can justify the purchase of a 2.0 over a TDI. Some people like a Golf or Jetta and don’t care about the powerplant. They just want a cool looking car for the cheapest price and the 2.0 can provide that. Then you get people like my neighbor who has a 2000 Jetta VR6 and she’s 70 years old. I don’t think that engine has seen over 3000 rpm. I did a 40,000-mile service a while back and when I went out to drive it, I cleaned it out. It sure ran much better after that.

In conclusion, I’m sticking with the post a while back that claimed diesel owners are smarter. That means that 2.0 owners are dumber? Maybe it’s that there are a lot of dumb people out there.

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I think the real key is what parameters are important. The VW 2.0 or even the 1.9 TDI is relatively expensive to buy outright even at 17-20k. However over time the leasing of a 2.0 or a 1.9 TDI is even MORE expensive! Situations are probably as important as the specifications on the vehicles. Some common assumptions can not be true for EVERYBODY, yet do serve as a point of departure.

A small example would be that one does 10,000 miles per year, I am on pace to do 30,000. The B/E on the higher cost of the 1.9 TDI is 6/7 years and 2/3 respectively. for a total of the 60k mile B/E point. One probably doesn't want to keep the vehicle past lease points, I on the other hand will shoot for 350,000-500,000 or 12/15 years. So if you look at the fact that most folks do not keep cars past 5/7 years in 15 years one side would have lease/finance bought/buy 2-3 cars@ 20k per, to the other one @ 20k. While I fully expect unscheduled maintenance, this will undoubtably be far cheaper than the 2/3 new car depreciation cycles.

I prefer my TDI over the 2.0 for the following reasons:

1. Better driveability of the engine.
2. Fuel economy
3. Safety (diesel fuel being less flamable than gasoline).
4. Diesel sound

People who buy 2.0's aren't stupid. They just have a different set of priorities.

Stuart

A small example would be that one does 10,000 miles per year, I am on pace to do 30,000.

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Yes, this was exactly the point I was making about my driving habits vs. my wife's. I drive at least 20,000 miles a year. She drives at most 12,000. It's hard to justify the extra expense of the TDI for her--it's EASY for me.

Your comments about getting 350-500K out of the car remind me of when I bought my '01 TDI to replace my '86 Jetta 1.6NA. As we were signing the paperwork, I looked over at my wife and said "Well, if this one lasts like the old one, we won't have to come back here until 2016!"

I don't think the dealer liked that too much.

Diesel is more expensive than gas (at least where he and I live, diesel is usually the most expensive fuel)

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While his other arguments aren't bad, this one is false. Diesel is cheaper per gallon, but the real measure is per mile. Using your assumptions (45 v 28 MPG and $1.50/gal v $1.38/gallon), the cost per mile is 3.33 cents/mile for the TDI and 4.93 cents/mile for the 2.0L. Diesel would have to cost $2.22/gallon for the 2.0L to be less expensive (when gas is $1.38) or, conversely, gas would have to be $0.93/gal when diesel is $1.50/gal.

I took my TDI to my local dealership (Baron Volkswagen - K.C.) for my 5,000 mile checkup today, and took out a loner car for the day. They gave me the keys to an '03 Jetta 2.0L. Let me say that anyone who buys the 2.0L is making a huge mistake. The differences between it and the TDI are too gigantic to not spend the extra money for the TDI. With the 2.0L, you step on the gas and you can not feel the power that I have come to know and love with my TDI. Plus the plastic hubcabs make the car look horrible. For anyone out there trying to decide between these two engines, trust me, you will make the right decision my taking the TDI.

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Nice to see another KC area TDI. Baron is a good dealer, but I go to Cunningham to buy my parts; and since the dealers in the area can hardly spell the word diesel, I tend to do all my own maintenance.

You will know if you see me, ill be the guy in the left lane of 435 with the smoke trail behind me.

Diesel is more expensive than gas (at least where he and I live, diesel is usually the most expensive fuel)

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While his other arguments aren't bad, this one is false. Diesel is cheaper per gallon, but the real measure is per mile. Using your assumptions (45 v 28 MPG and $1.50/gal v $1.38/gallon), the cost per mile is 3.33 cents/mile for the TDI and 4.93 cents/mile for the 2.0L. Diesel would have to cost $2.22/gallon for the 2.0L to be less expensive (when gas is $1.38) or, conversely, gas would have to be $0.93/gal when diesel is $1.50/gal.

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In the context of his argument, he is right. Since you took it out of his context, you are right.

As was posted earlier, it's what parameters are important. You can calculate it however you want, but the break even point is beyond the 4 years he will have the car.

A small example would be that one does 10,000 miles per year, I am on pace to do 30,000.

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Yes, this was exactly the point I was making about my driving habits vs. my wife's. I drive at least 20,000 miles a year. She drives at most 12,000. It's hard to justify the extra expense of the TDI for her--it's EASY for me.

Your comments about getting 350-500K out of the car remind me of when I bought my '01 TDI to replace my '86 Jetta 1.6NA. As we were signing the paperwork, I looked over at my wife and said "Well, if this one lasts like the old one, we won't have to come back here until 2016!"

I don't think the dealer liked that too much.

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Yeah, I think truly if one is inclined to keep a car past the 5/7 year mark that overcoming boredom will be the primary obstacle. I had a 1987 Toyota Landcuiser that I sold a year or so ago with app 250k miles. Not only was it used for a daily delivery vehicle but on the weekends as well! The surprising thing about it was it easily was built to last 15 years but when I sold it, I estimated that it could go another 15 years with out any problem. Evidently, the guy who bought it from me for 9000 (got it new for 16,000) thought so also In regards to the Jetta, for planning purposes have figured on ZERO at the 15 year mark for the residual value.

The little open hidden secret about the VW Jetta is that it has a 12 year rust guarantee. (which the Toyota Landcruiser did not) So when you combine it with the TDI motor, (10,000 hr, avg of 55 mph, 550,000) 360,000 miles is way underperforming the motor's hr life.

If I used this data:

-TDI cost $1260 more than the 2.0 (this accounts the price differential in 1999 and financing for 48 months)
-Gas is $1.38/gal and diesel is $1.50/gal
-Car gets 12000 miles/year
-Mileage for the TDI is 45mpg and 2.0 is 28mpg

The break-even point for me is then 6.6 years. Since I’ve had the car for 3.7 years then I only have 2.9 years to go. I guess I’ll start celebrating around May 2006. I can’t wait.

Like said above the people who buy the 2.0 have different priorities. If you look at my signature you will see I am looking at the 2.0 and TDI and its real hard to choose between the 2. I commute between 50-100 miles daily so that is why I am looking at the TDI also.

Pros of the 2.0
1. Lower inital cost, deals for a few hundred over invoice
2. Hundreds to choose from in the Bay Area
3. Plenty of power for my needs
4. Pretty decent gas mileage
5. Low maintenance
6. Regular unleaded is cheaper then diesel ($1.69 vs. $1.79)

Pros of the TDI
1. Great gas mileage
2. Great torque
3. Low Maintenance

Cons of TDI:
1. High initial cost
2. Hard to find, have to compromise on color and options

I have decided to wait until the '04s come out and save up alittle more for a larger down payment. If the TDI is no longer sold in CA I will just go with the 2.0 and be happy, but if they do bring the PD TDI here I will check it out and determine then if its worth the extra cost.

Seriously...2.0 is crap. Get the TDI.

Seriously...2.0 is crap. Get the TDI.

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or as we discussed on another thread, get the 360.

or...

Just buy a used TDI. That's really the smartest move. I know that a new car is nice, but you can pick up a good used Golf or Jetta and it looks just like a 2003. You should be able to pick up a used 1999.5 or 2000 Golf or Jetta for about 1/2 the price of a new one. Contact Harvieux, I bet he'd set you up with a good one at a decent price.

jgsazcats, you probably drove the same 2.0l loaner I did when I took my '02 Golf GL 5-speed TDI in -- this April -- for its 40,000 mile service, at Barons in KC.

That was the 1st time I drove a 2.0l VW.

I have to tell you, while I wouldn't own a 2.0l VW, it was not a bad car. It had pretty good acceleration -- the lower gearing I think helps in this regard, though I missed the mid-range torque and acceleration of my TDI.

Gas milegage was pretty bad, using my seat of pants fuel mileage meter. I got the car almost empty -- the low gas warning light was on -- and I just put in 5 gallons of gas at the next door gas station. Didn't have the car long enough to do any real mileage comparisons with my TDI.

A coworker looked at a Jetta TDI and decided against one and his reasoning paralleled some others who've responded to your post.

The initial cost difference between the TDI and the gas 2.0l vs. the fuel savings, for some drivers, takes too long for them to get even.

Sincerely,

Rock Crusher (Oo.)

Seriously...2.0 is crap. Get the TDI.

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Wow... such compelling advice. You sold me.

If you bought a TDI and 2.0 and kept them for say 3 years, and then sold them; what would the resale value be ? Here in Europe you would get your extra initial outlay back as resale values of diesels are so much higher.

You should factor in residual value as well as high purchase costs, fuel, longevity, servicing etc.

Another tip, fuel may well get more expensive, but I don't see it getting cheaper....

When I was looking at the VW web site, I looked at all the motor specs and laughed when I saw 90hp. It wasn't till I stumbled on to this site that I was willing to give the TDI a second look. After a test drive I realized it wasn't that bad but I knew as a bought the car I'ld have a chip in it with in a month. After chipping I knew I made the right choice.

Now when people ask me my opinion, I mention the quality issues with VW (interior stuff, not TDI stuff). If they are still interested in a VW, I tell them the TDI is the best motor. I then hand them the FAQ's from here and let them go from there.

When I was looking at the VW web site, I looked at all the motor specs and laughed when I saw 90hp. It wasn't till I stumbled on to this site that I was willing to give the TDI a second look. After a test drive I realized it wasn't that bad but I knew as a bought the car I'ld have a chip in it with in a month. After chipping I knew I made the right choice.

Now when people ask me my opinion, I mention the quality issues with VW (interior stuff, not TDI stuff). If they are still interested in a VW, I tell them the TDI is the best motor. I then hand them the FAQ's from here and let them go from there.

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Yeah, most of us here are still laughing That little 90 horsepower keeps me laughing all the way to the bank! Damn if I can get the smile off my face!!

Diesel is more expensive than gas (at least where he and I live, diesel is usually the most expensive fuel)

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While his other arguments aren't bad, this one is false...the cost per mile is 3.33 cents/mile for the TDI and 4.93 cents/mile for the 2.0L.

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In the context of his argument, he is right. Since you took it out of his context, you are right.

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I don't see how I took this out of context. He argues that gas is cheaper than diesel. My point was simply that this is comparing apples to oranges. It's like saying "the price of 1 gallon of milk is $1.99 and the price of a half gallon is $1.50, so half gallons are cheaper." The proper way to compare fuel costs is per mile not per gallon. There's no two ways about it.

6. Regular unleaded is cheaper then diesel ($1.69 vs. $1.79)

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As I pointed out earlier, this argument is illogical. The mileage difference makes the fuel cost of a diesel far lower than that of a gasser. Price per gallon is irrelevant when the mileage of a diesel is close to 2X that of the gasser.

The upfront cost is a very valid argument and you can make all sorts of calcs on payback periods, etc., but the actual cost of fuel per mile is less for a diesel.

I'm glad I've stumbled across these posts. I'm going to see about a used TDI tomorrow and trading for my 2.0 '99 old Jetta. I like the new body style, I was just worried the automatic TDI would'nt have as much power as my 5-speed 2.0 anyone have any opinions about this? I know I'll probably save in the long run, I'm just thinking about acceleration and all that...

Despite the difference in the numbers, the TDI does have good acceleration. I'm not sure I would peg it as equivalent to the 2.0L (comparing it to the new '99+ engine), but it's certainly more than adequate. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the power and driveability of the TDI. Good luck!

... I'm just thinking about acceleration and all that...

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I can honestly say that my cousin got me involved in the TDi cuz he has two, him and his wife. I got my TDi for $700 under invoice, a GLS with roof for under $17,000, actually $16,780. Sticker was $19,500 or so, end of model year and in a dealership that wanted to get rid of it. 5-speed. 2002 Golf 4-dr

The 2.0 is a great motor and in a manual tranny can get mid-30's highway even more. I have friends with automatic 2.0 and they are great, great dependable cars but manage mid-20's in mileage mixed urban and city. They are heavy footed too.

As for your comment:

I'd opt for a 1.8T and get mid 30's in mileage mixed while obtaining great performance and super horse power with torque. It's unmatched. You can't go wrong with a 1.8T.

The 2.0L Volkswagen is in an "if-y" period of performance, it having economy ...but not really economical in comparison to the 1.8T but actually in line with a TDi. The TDi and the 2.0 are nose in nose. On the other hand, the 1.8T is really a bawls to the walls car in an automatic, a seriously dependable ride and it has acceleration that is beyond excellent [in automatic form].

The biggest problem with the 1.8T vs the 2.0 is intial cost. You can really order a fully loaded 2.0 for cheap. A 1.8T is harder to negotiate because demand is high.

As for the TDi and the other two gasoline motors? Well, there is a set-back for the TDi that no one seems to understand. If you buy a TDi you buy a car for long-term and high mileage usage. You have to roll more than 30 minutes on a day commute to get all that fuel heated in cold weather. You have to use the car more than 8,000 miles a year. You have to be careful of the fuel you put in it. You have to deal with a lot of issues that are not normally found in gasolin models. That's my opinion. As well, just shopping for engine oil on a TDi is a time consuming event. Look at the threads on where to buy Rotella, or Delvac or Vavoline or Castrol in 5-40w. Then you have to think about where to buy filtres and who does the maintenance even if they are certified, the Volkswagen Dealership could do more damage then good if they are not experienced in diesel repair and maintenance. I was offered non-synthetic oil on my first oil change.

That was my dealership saying it was okay to run cheap $1.50 Castrol Oil in the diesel?

You have to educate yourself on what you own and operate when dealing in diesel.

You have to understand that high mileage, no matter if in the form of a diesel or in the form of a gasoline model does not have an impact on resale buyers when you sell it here in the US. They are fixed on your resale mileage. If you have a 2.0 with 80,000 miles or a TDi with 80,000 miles the US market can not comprehend anything other than, "Geez...it has 80,000 miles, that's a lot of miles..."

So, if I were you?

A 1.8T, pay some bucks, get it loaded and run it two years and sell it to a teenager for big bucks. No teenager is going to shell out $14,000 for a 2000 TDi loaded. On Vortex a 1.8T sells at that price.

So buying in a mentality of longevity, performing your own maintenance, educating oneself and running up serious mileage = equals TDi.

So buy in the mentality of short-term, performance and having any garage perform your maintenance, not too much mileage and GREAT resale value = equals 1.8T

So buy the 2.0 and be in-between a rock and a hard place because everyone will ask, "Why didn't you opt the $600 extra and get the 1.8T?"

Bottom line, the 2.0 will go 200,000 miles, the 1.8T will go that far and even further and the TDi will go forever.

Ask yourself a question?

"How long do you want the same steering wheel inside your grip with the same arse in a seat... how many years before you get bored?"


I'm bored already,
love my TDi
But bored.

M.D.

p.s. by fall I get a 2004 Crown Victoria, Police Interceptor with vinyl seats, bench. It's a company thing, they give it to me... along with the job.