03 Jetta Wagon TDI with 5sp on the way, getting cold feet, Help!

Scenario: My wife and I are semi-greenies who live in Helena, Montana. We are really interested in the high fuel mileage of the TDI and like the Jetta. Saving money is not the top issue (though it is a good one). I have placed a deposit on the next Jetta Wagon TDI to arrive at the Volkswagen dealer in Bozeman, Montana (January 2003). We do not put very many miles on our vehicles each year, about 10,000 miles, but virtually all of the miles are highway miles (it’s a long ways to anywhere out here). The car will be in our attached garage (45F/7C in winter) most of the time to be brought out mostly on the weekends. It does get pretty cold here on occasion (-20F/-28C) and generally sticks around 10F/-12C in the winter. We really want the car to start when we are done skiing!

I am somewhat mechanical but I have no desire to tinker with the car. I got my fill of that when I was younger and had old Toyota Landcruisers and Dodge Darts, etc. Of course, that was in the days of points, condensers, and carburetors. There is no Volkswagen dealer in Helena. The closest one is 88 miles away in Great Falls and 96 miles away in Bozeman. We do have an independent Volkswagen mechanic in Helena who has a very good reputation (one guy). What I really want is to be reassured that this is a reliable car. If it breaks down while it is still under warrantee it is a long tow to the dealer. We still have the dead reliable 1990 Nissan pickup to depend on but I really do not want a broken down car, especially when my wife is driving it.

I want to like this car but I cannot get over the question, can I depend on it? When I read the forums, especially the mechanical ones, I get the feeling that these cars can have quite a few problems. I see that the Consumer Reports recently gave the entire Jetta line a poor ranking on reliability. I really do not want to be monkeying around with it on my own. I don’t care about chips and other hot rod stuff. I just want it to go when I ask it to go, and hopefully burn less fossil fuel in the process.

Please help talk me back into it!

Don't take any stock in what C U says. They have ceased to be reliable or believeable.

Our new 2002 GLS Jetta wagon with automatic has been flawless, and will turn 10,000 miles tomorrow in exactly five months of ownership. It has been back to the dealer only once, and that was for an oil and filter change which could have been done anywhere. I've owned many vehicles in my over fifty years of driving, and I've never been happier with any vehicle.

Try it, you'll like it! And I'm sure you and the wife will both be happy.



[ November 16, 2002, 09:33: Message edited by: WVWSP61 ]

I live 40 miles from the nearest dealer and I have a TDI Wagon that's so supposed to be in by the end of the month.My current VW has left me stranded only once in its 13 year 300K mile existence. You could buy a far less reliable car with better dealer support.

mt_mapper:

I live in Finland. It's get pretty cold here too . And I have VW TDI. At least my VW starts still at -30c without engine heater.

Normally I have the engine block heater in use, with that you don't have to think will it start or not. It will. My understanding is that you don't have engine block heaters over there but the oil pan heaters to give you the same result
-> easy start.

If you are talking that you have about -12c average temp. during the winter. Then you don't have to worry. Even if you don't have anykind of engine heater.

"Paras ajaa varmasti, Volkswagen."

p.s.
I don't know about your diesel quality
over there. If it get's that cold there
you have to have winter quality diesel available?

[ November 15, 2002, 00:11: Message edited by: JimBob ]

Originally posted by JimBob:
"I want to like this car but I cannot get over the question, can I depend on it? When I read the forums, especially the mechanical ones, I get the feeling that these cars can have quite a few problems."

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I could not resist giving my two cent's:

Volkswagen is generally consired to be one of most reliable cars in the world. VAG Corporation is the biggest car manufacturer in Europe. e.g. VW manufactures 3600 VW Golfs every day. Last year VW delivered 865 500 Golfs worldwide
(21 517 415 total amount manufactured ever).

VW delivers diesel engines for Audi, Seat, Skoda and Volvo (Volvo introdused it's own diesel engine this year, before that Volvo's had VW TDI engines). And heard a wild rumor that Mercedes-Benz uses for some models VW's TDI engine. But that just a rumor (probably not true, heard it from MB taxi driver).

VW has been manufacturing diesel engines for 25 years. Introduced this year most powerfull diesel engine ever made for 'normal' car (310hp/750nm).

VW is not a perfect car. You can have problems with it. Even more problems will likely to appear
if you tamper with the car. Install chip, do turbo mod. or what ever modifications of your own.

VW has it's own problems, like mine. I have a problem with my drivers side powerwindow. That isn't much after 2 years and 75 000km or is it ??

Your money, your decision.

That was my two cent's

With best regards,
Antti P
Finland

[ November 15, 2002, 01:13: Message edited by: JimBob ]

CR's poor rating is based on VW's nagging issues with Window Regulators (Updated in 2003 to the new, metal clip), Oxygen Sensors (You don't ahve one of those), and MAF sensors (the only thing that could be an issue to you).

When you've got more than 1/4 of your customers having their windows fall into the doors, that hits HARD on reliability numbers. Even 5% of cars having a particular problem would be cause for alarm for a fleet.

That duty sounds almost ideal for a TDI or any other car. Long drives, not much putting around in town.

I think the only precaution I'd take in your shoes would be to add a fuel supplement to ensure that you have anti-gel protection below any possible temps you'll encounter.

I'm sure fuel bought in your area will be blended during the winter, but a supplement will only help and add some lubricity lost in the blending with diesel #1.

I'd love to be able to buy your car when you're done with it. It sounds like it will have lead a very easy life to that point.

go for it. Any car, even the most reliable car, could break down at anytime. I bet if you could survey car owners with the question, "how many times has your car left you stranded?" the responses per make would be about the same (except for Yugo and Fiat...).

Don't let the wealth of information at Freds' give you the wrong impression. I think the jetta tdi is perfect for you!

I also was faced with a similar concern before I bought my 2003 Jetta Station Wagon
TDI / GL / 5-speed. It was a descision between a Honda Civic Hybrid 5-speed and
the TDI Wagon.

I also read this forum and I was concerned about continous problems, some I neverheard of, like;CCV or EGR and clogged snow screens. But on 100602 I bought
a 2003 Jetta Wagon TDI 5-speed.

So far I have over 2,800 miles. It has not used a drop of oil yet and my overall
mileage is 54-55 MPG so far, it will probably be lower when winter diesel arrives at
the local pumps.

I am quite pleased and the power is more than adequate and the vehicle is roomy
and a real pleasure to drive. Out here in Seaside, OR the nearest dealer is in Beaverton, Oregon, which is about 80 miles away, so in that respect I understand
your concern.

I would be optimistic and buy it and don't forget there is a 50,000 miles warranty.

Alster

I live in Kalispell, MT. Gets chilly here also, but I think you get colder in Helena. I'm fortunate, I have a dealer in Whitefish, but I bought the car in Spokane, WA.

I'm on my second TDI, the only reason is the 2nd is because I needed more room. I traded in my 02 sedan for an 03 wagon.

Just got the wagon, but after 23,000 miles in 11 months, the sedan was flawless.

One suggestion, if you have a choice, get a manual 5 speed. The TDI mileage is much more affected by an auto than other small cars. My sedan was an auto. The 5 speed is very easy to drive, that was one concern of mine because I hadn't had a manual in more years than I care to remember.*G*

Ooops....next time I supposed I should read the entire subject, eh?
<...with 5sp on the way...>

mt_mapper, don't worry about the TDI starting in winter.

My mother got one of the first (if not the first) Golf TDI automatic back in June 99.

She lives about half a hour from the Maine's border (it's very hilly over there, but maybe not as much as in Montana).

She drives for her work and needed a flawless car. It's what she got.

The car always started, even by -45C/-49F.

The only time she got stuck with it, was when she tried to go through 4 feet of snow.

Just to tell you that with the engine's extra weight in front(compared to a gasser) it makes a very stable car for winter.

Reliable? Well after 3 years this is what she changed (not including oils, filters, T belt):
-Air flow meter.
-Oil pan.

The air flow meter is something that you'll have to change at one point in time.

The oil pan was changed because it was hit by a sizeable chunk of ice.

A wize investment would be to get a oil pan plate.

Go and buy this car, you won't regret it.

Rammstein.

mt_mapper, don't worry about the TDI starting in winter.

My mother got one of the first (if not the first) Golf TDI automatic back in June 99.

She lives about half an hour from the Maine's border (it's very hilly over there, but maybe not as much as in Montana).It's very fun to drive uphill with the cruise, because the car stay at the exact speed you set it at (because of the high torque).

She drives for her work and needed a flawless car.

The car always started, even by -45C/-49F.

Don't forget to put some of the gas anti-freeze for diesel.

If you worry about getting good diesel(and winterized diesel too), go to Flying J.

There are five of them in Montana. Check this out

To see the price they sell their diesel click on the left on "MT diesel" to get a page that looks like this.

The only time she got stuck with it, was when she tried to go through 4 feet of snow.

Just to tell you that with the engine's extra weight in front (compared to a gasser) it makes a very stable car for winter.

Reliable? Well after 3 years this is what she changed (not including oils, filters, T belt):
-Air flow meter.
-Oil pan.

The air flow meter is something that you'll have to change at one point in time.

The oil pan was changed because it was hit by a sizeable chunk of ice.

A wise investment would be to get an oil pan plate.

Go and buy this car, you won't regret it.

Rammstein.

[ November 15, 2002, 09:27: Message edited by: Rammstein ]

I had the same concerns when shopping for my new Jetta...as was pointed out to me then by "DallasTDi"...a lot of the folks on here who post regularly are true enthusiasts who spend thousands on mods and thoroughly discuss every issue (which I find very valuable). I did purchase the Jetta and so far I'm very happy with it..besides the metal skid plate (hopefully soon) I plan no other mods to this car...my other car is a 1998 Honda CRV which is currently in the shop having the transmission rebuilt to the tune of $3000! ...the car was perfect up to this point (90k miles)...but 3K for any engine repair is pretty extreme to me(the parts cost my mech $2100.00...the dealer wanted 6k!) ...so there are no guarantees regardless of a brand's supposed reliability...I dont see many $3000 repair bills on this board...

2001 Jetta TDI. 40,000 miles. Have had to replace one headlight bulb, one MAF (just a couple weeks ago), the oil 4 times with the fifth coming this weekend and the fuel numerous times .

I love this car so much I see dancing bananas!

just hit 4000 miles with mine and it has been a pleasure..... it is built in Germany.. not the mexican version which has generated the majority of complaints... go for it... you will be pleased!

[ November 15, 2002, 09:33: Message edited by: tobsav ]

Originally posted by WVWSP61:
Don't take any stock in what C U says. They have seceded to be reliable.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, if you look at the detailed listings for the a4 VWs in the April issue, the black spots are in "power equipment", "electrical", and "body hardware" or something like that. I'd guess that many of these problems would be listed under "power window regulator" if they had that as a category.

2003 VWs have the redesigned metal power window regulator clip that should be less failure prone than the 1998-2002 models (for which the warranty was extended to 7 years due to a high rate of failure).

Which brings up a point about CR: if it says that a car is unreliable, try to find out what exactly is the failure-prone component (web boards regarding the car are a good way to find out). In some cases, the manufacturer may have changed to a less failure-prone component (e.g. 2003 VW a4 window regulator clip). In other cases, you may be able to choose options to avoid the problem (e.g. prior to 2003, you could have considered a GL model with manual windows).

[ November 15, 2002, 09:35: Message edited by: tjl ]

I looked at the linked I gave you mt_mapper, and diesel is pretty expensive in your state!!

There is a 25 cents/gal difference with Cheyenne Wyoming, look for WY, Cheyenne I-25 Exit 7.

Just to let you know.

Rammstein.

If you haven't already, think 'snow tires'. The stock Goodyears aren't that great in snow.

Along with south: Ecodes good, stock bleah on a Jetta.

Note that the EGR mod as mentioned increases NOx production. Go with your conscience.

The snow screen is a maintenance thing. Simply check is every so often or better yet, remove it.

The EGR/CCV things can also be a maintenance item in that you check the intake track and clean it as necessary. Or use some of the ideas given here about putting an oil vapor seperator in the CCV line.

The paper Bentley is easier to read, but the CD has more procedures in it. Flip a coin or get both.

If it does get chilly where you are, you might want to look into a coolant heater of some sort. some are electric, others use the vehicle's fuel.

Thanks! You all are making me feel much better. Please keep it up.

It sounds like perhaps they have fixed some of the more problematic parts in the 2003 like the MAF (mass air flow?) sensor and the window mechanism. What are some of the other problems, is it the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation?) and snow screen? How common are these problems and are they difficult or expensive to deal with.

I don't have any problem with the routine maintenance type stuff. I always keep on top of that stuff with my cars. Frankly, I have never had a car konk out on me unexpectedly except when I have had a battery go kaput or in extreme cold (used to live in Alaska).

It sounds to me that if I keep good synthetic oil in the car, change the filters regularly, be careful with where I buy diesel, maybe put in a diesel additive, and get the timing belt replace on time I should be good to go for a long time, trouble free. I can cope with that.

Diesel is roughly 20 cents more expensive than gas at this time in Montana but it seems to fluctuate a lot. I have seen it be cheaper as well. I don't know what the cause of that is. Diesel is a very necessary commodity in Montana as we have a lot of farming, ranching, logging, etc. that is powered by diesel fuel. I am not sure if diesel is taxed higher than gas here or not. It would be a good thing to find out.

As I stated before though, this is not necessarily a cost saving endeavor on our part. We are interested in using less fossil fuel as a general principle. We would like to do our part no matter how meager it is.

As I stated before though, this is not necessarily a cost saving endeavor on our part. We are interested in using less fossil fuel as a general principle. We would like to do our part no matter how meager it is.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You'll be happy when biodiesel becomes more readily available then.

I would say to make sure you think it through all of the way and make sure you weigh everything out. My wife and I are now on are second TDI. We first bought a '00 NB TDI back in Sept. of '99. THe only problem that car had that put us on the side of the road was a control valve of some sort broke (not a common problem). We did just recently have a problem with the glow plug circuit but other than that teh engine runs perfectly. A few months ago we bought a Jetta TDI to go with the other car and so far nothing.

I would suggest a few things since you don;t live near the dealer.

I would get Vag-com and a laptop to run it on. This is you ever get a CEL you can hook up to the car and see what the problem is. Highly recommend the EGR mod.

Recommend getting the steel skid plate and covers for the fuel and brake lines. These are not included standard but are worth the money.

Get a liquivac if you want to change your own oil and also know where you can order items such as oil filters and fuel filters. The liquivac enables you to remove the oil from the dipstick tube and actually is better than the drain plug. You should still remove the lower engine cover to have a peek. This way you can totally avoid the dealership if needed. BTW, fluids such as coolant and brake fluid are designed to last far longer on a VW than most cars so not much of a worry there.

I would get at least the Bently CD. Even though you are not wanting to work on the car it's good to have in case there is something simple to fix and avoid going to the dealer. Also a welth of information about your car that is good to know.

The only other thing I would think about is getting Ecode headlamps. This is needed of course but anything that makes the car safer is worht it. If you don't care these are availiable without the foglights but the lighting pattern is far better than what the Govt. makes VW use over here.

Of course keep hanging uot here and any questions you may have you will find that the people on the list here are more than happy to help out.

Good luck with whatever you purchase.

The previous posts were great but the last two were exactly what was concerning me. I do not want to have to modify my brand new $20,000 car. I don't want to have a computer code reader. I program computers all week. The last think I want is to have to debug my car. When I am done with work I want to be done with codes.

The independent VW mechanic in town is supposedly very good. He tells me that he works on TDIs quite a bit. He was honest enough to tell me that there is one in town that has given him problems but he thought he was close to figuring it out. I think that I can trust this guy if the car starts running bad enough that I can't get it to the dealer. Of course the 2003 is supposed to come with 4 years of AAA towing. In the first 4 years I could get it towed to Bozeman (96 miles) to the dealer.

What is the snow screen anyway? Is it a screen that keeps things out of the air intake? It sounds like it gets clogged easily or something. Is it poorly designed?

The EGR/CCV things can also be a maintenance item in that you check the intake track and clean it as necessary. Or use some of the ideas given here about putting an oil vapor seperator in the CCV line.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like I say, I am not interested in modifying my new car, but what is this problem here? Does oil or exhause from the EGR somehow foul the intake? Is this a big problem? If this is a simple problem to fix and will not void the warrantee or ruin the emissions system I am willing to do it. This is the kind of thing that turns me off though.

You don't have to modify anything, if you don't want. There are several members who are leaving everything stock, and just monitoring and controlling the clog issue.

If you use normal rotgut diesel fuel however, expect to have periodic services to clean the intake manifold.

OTOH, If you run Biodiesel or blend it with petro-diesel that will help slow it down considerably. Also helpful is to use a fully synthetic engine oil with a low Noack volatility rating. Amsoil 10W-40 comes to mind. The other is driving habits. By changing out around 2800 to 3000 rpms, you'll stay in the cleaner part of the burn process.

The main thing is to stay informed by being an active reader of the Forums. Knowledge is power, and we have a pretty powerful knowledge base here at Fred's!!

mt-mapper wrote, among other things:
The previous posts were great but the last two were exactly what was concerning me. I do not want to have to modify my brand new $20,000 car.

Mapper-Don't worry about it. Go for a hike, get away from here for a while. As I said, I had a Jetta sedan for a year, now a wagon. I've not done any mods, nothing has broken, the sky hasn't fallen. (No offense to the previous posters

[ November 16, 2002, 09:05: Message edited by: Joe Fisher ]

Like I said earlier on page one, "Try it, you'll like it."

Many people drive these fine vehicles all the time without doing any modifications to them. However, to avoid the eventual plugging up of the intake manifold, I do recommend having someone perform the EGR modification using the Vag-com. This is a very fast and simple procedure to those that have done it even once before, and merely shortens the length of time that the EGR value is open, therefore lessening the amount of exhaust gases that enter the intake, therefore lessening the soot that can combine with the oil vapors which form the 'gunk' that gradually plugs the intake passages.

Good luck, and I hope you reach the 'correct' decision.

My 2001 TDI has just passed the 40,000 mile mark in less than 2 years. When the car was almost new, I had to have the lower seat frames replaced (dealer took care of this). Every time you stopped or started, they would make a clunking noise. The EGR valve develope an oil leak and the dealer took care of this also. Then I started having trouble with the check engine light and the glow plug system. The car was at the dealer about 5 times and they replaced everything there was to replace (relay, wiring harness, grounds). This last time in to the shop, they found a bad ground somewhere in the steering column area. I think they have finally got it right this time. Other than those annoyances, I really like the care, it drives great and is great on fuel (40-42 MPG) travelling 70 MPH most of the time. The automatic is really great in this car. It shifts smooth and will shift faster than a standard can. I wished they would produce a Passat TDI for the US though because I could use a little more room. The car seat for the baby eats up most of the rear seat and there is little leg room in the back. Look for a good dealer! I am blessed with 4 dealerships within 30 miles of me. The service at the dealer where I bought the car was absolutely awful but was really happy with the second dealership I brought the car to for waranty service.

Mapper, first off I want to thank you for considering a TDI as a fuel efficient alternative to everything else. I think you will be happy with the Jetta Wagon. Had I been able to wait three years, I'd have one now. As is, I have 2k Golf GL with almost 81,000 miles on it.

My car's stock. I enjoy it that way. Maybe in the future when I have some more $$$ I'll get it chipped and do some of the mods... But as it is, stock, it's fine.

You have to understand the enthusiasm people have for the TDI. It's just neat. Although it hasn't been without problems, I can say that all but one of my (common) problems were sorted out early in the car's life, during the warranty period. I know you're concerned about that, and seeing how far you are from a dealer that is a bit of an issue. BUT... It's the only thing I can see personally that might cause you concern. I wouldn't worry about anything else.

Two things I would recommend:
</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> always carry a bottle of some sort of anti-gel additive, and/or some cetane boost additive
</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> find out if biodiesel is available in your area and use it!

The first one is something I'd say to any diesel owner, no matter what cold climate they live in. That's a small added bit of safety, ''just in case''.

The second one is what gives our TDI a green-friendly advantage over hybrids: biodiesel is as far away from fossil fuels as you can get!

Just a bit advice from another Helena person (OK, mine's in Alabama but still... )

First off - leave it stock, the way VW designed and manufactured it! The type of driving you will be doing for the amount of miles per year, you will not experience any of the problems you see here on this site. Just use "True Full" synthetic motor oil and track down a "Quality" diesel fuel supply to use (Amoco Premier - 50 Cetane, B20 ETC.).

Second - All the years I have driven Rabbit Diesels here in Michigan where 0~+20'F is common throughout the Winter months, I had never plugged in or garaged them and had never had a problem starting,and that's the old mechanical, indirect injection! Quality fuel, with a Diesel fuel supplement (winter grade) and a strong battery is all you need every Winter. I expect my '02 Jetta to be all that and more (yesterday morning it was 28'F and it fired off with the first cylinder up after a 2.5 second wait for the glow light, no smoke - no clatter - no vibration or shaking dash board (Rabbit dash used to be funny to watch in the morning start up). God I love this car - makes me feel sorry for all the gasser owners!

Third - I now have 14K on my Jetta and the only flaws or problems I have ever had have been Dealer inflicted! Avoid the Dealer as much as possible! The car has never had any issues from the VW factory that has needed attention - it has been flawless from a manufacturers point. Only take it to the Dealer if there is a warranty issue that must be addressed. The maintenance on these vehicles is simple, less often and limited in items to tend to compared to a Gas car. The snow screen is no big deal! I checked mine at 10K - took ten minutes - was easy and only had a little bit of fur balls and sand stuck to it. Not enough to restrict performance in any way.

Let's summarize:
Stay Stock
Don't worry about cold weather start up
Stay Away From The Dealer!
Go for it - You won't be sorry, you will only be wondering why you hadn't done it sooner once you drive it a while.