Is the TDI a 300K mile engine?

I couldn't find this in searching...when I bought the TDI I had visions of the "million-mile" diesel engines I've heard about with big trucks. Now I've been brought up short with EGR, intake cleaning, etc. We absolutely LOVE the '02 Golf TDI we have (48K miles) but I'm wondering if my dreams of a long-lived engine were true, or...just wishful thinking. I do use Delvac-1, CCV bypass, etc. I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death, and I apologize in advance for bringing it up, but I just couldn't easily find info using "search"

So...whaddya think? Is the TDI a "long-hauler" or a "flash in the pan?" I've already had more "nickel-and-dime" stuff with my '02 Golf (and '99 NB TDI) than I expected...

The issue is (and has been) EGR and the effects of premature wear of the piston rings and ring grooves.

I have always advocated the elimination of the EGR system for the above noted reasons.

You're using prime engine oil...and addressing the CCV system is the gateway to helping your engine towards a long and healthy service life (read less expensive operating costs).

What I have seen in many A-4 TDI intake manifolds at 65K+ miles is excessive carbon build-up that restricts air flow into the engine.
The turbo is producing the same amount of boost (PSI) but the actual volume of air entering the combustion chambers is gradually less & less as the intake manifold becomes restricted (clogged)with EGR carbon.

The results are...the more you drive a TDI the more the EGR clogs the intake manifold....the less air is pumped into the combustion chambers...the less effiecient the engine becomes.

Now...throw in more EGR...over a longer period.
The engine is getting less air...more EGR and now the piston rings and ring grooves wear sooner than they should.

In my opinion this engine likely can run a million miles but
I doubt the car would hold up.
Case in point is the diesel Rabbit...many of these engines are still running like clocks (no EGR sys)...but the bodys are scrapmetal.

The first thing I did when I bought my A-3 (new to me) after cleaning the intake ...was the elimination of the EGR and CCV systems.

On your 2k2 Golf @ 48K miles....your engine isn't even fully "broken-in" yet. Basicly your engine is "as new".
Eliminate the EGR system...and your main consern will be maintaining the body and the other systems on the car.

This is why I perfer the GL over the GLS ( I don't buy cars for their resale value). As age take is toll on the car's systems...pwr assessories only become difficault and expensive repairs.
The day I can't roll up a window or lock/un-lock a door...is the day I'll quit driving.
Till that time comes...I perfer to operate windows and latches ...manually.
The same goes for the tranny...and the issues noted on this forum conserning the auto "slush-box" are many...too many.

Ok..I'll get off of my soap box now...

... but I'm wondering if my dreams of a long-lived engine were true, or...just wishful thinking

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Not wishful thinking...its the exact reason I am such a strong proponent of the TDI engine.
I perfer long term ownership (15+ yrs) ....low operating costs, great MPG...and good performance...all in the same package.
This is what the TDI has the potential for...eliminating the EGR early in the life of the car is the stepping stone to achiving those goals.

On an off topic. Herm, when we do the struts and shocks, I need you to do the Epsilonian mod for me.

Hi Frank..
Speaking of thoses...I got some in today.
I'll put one aside with your name on it.

1. Will disconnecting the EGR turn the TDI into a gross polluter?

2. How is it done?

Tx

1. Define "gross polluter". By some accounts, eliminating EGR will increase NOx by a factor of two or three under some speed/load conditions. But if you consider that the amount of emissions from modern vehicles is essentially zero compared to older non-emission-controlled engines that got us in trouble in the first place ... three times almost zero is still almost zero. Keep in mind that all but the newest transport trucks on the road have diesel engines with no EGR and no catalysts ...

2. Get in touch with someone selling this gadget. Can't discuss it here - "tampering with emission controls" ...

In response to the original question, mine is just short of 400,000 km and there's no indication that the engine is on its last legs.

Thanks Herm .

I am shooting for 1,000,000km (610,000 miles). I will use synthetic oil. EGR still there. I like using my VAG-COM software for issues that come up...cough. The only issue I have is will the rest of the car stay attached to my engine!. It rattles.

BH

Well, it is also true that rubber rots & degrades, as well as other materials. Assuming you keep the iron termites at bay, you would also want to replace suspension and body mounting bushings when they wear and get loose. If you maintain everything, then yeah, the car can make it. Lots of cars can.

Herm, won't keeping the EGR clean provide the same benefits as modding it? What cleaning frequency would be best?

Also, how does fuel quality/biodiesel use affect engine life? I've read that use of even B10 can significantly lengthen engine life.

It all depends on how, and where your car is driven. I have over 238,000 miles on my '01 Golf TDI, and have had virtually no problems of any kind with the engine except for a leaky cam seal that was caught at a timing belt change. The car itself has had minimal problems involving a seat belt retractor that broke, and an A/C clutch flange that needed to be replaced.

My situation isn't the norm, however. 90% of my miles are on the highway, which helps the intake clogging problem (mine hasn't been cleaned yet). My warm up procedure is almost ideal, in that I have to drive about 1.5 miles with only one stop sign (at the .8 mile mark) at about 40mph until I hit the highway, then drive a minimum of 9 miles at highway speed before going anywhere, or even having to stop for anything. Perfect conditions for any engine and the whole car.

It's the stop and go driving that shortens engine life. Rough roads, constant stopping for lights and stop signs
shorten the life of the car itself.

I fully expect to get at least 500K out of my car. Your mileage may vary.

1. Define "gross polluter". By some accounts, eliminating EGR will increase NOx by a factor of two or three under some speed/load conditions. But if you consider that the amount of emissions from modern vehicles is essentially zero compared to older non-emission-controlled engines that got us in trouble in the first place ... three times almost zero is still almost zero.

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But this ignores that more Americans are driving more cars longer distances. Even if you assume a large reduction in NOx, more American's driving more miles means more total pollution.

Keep in mind that all but the newest transport trucks on the road have diesel engines with no EGR and no catalysts ...

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You sure about that? Seems to me that the long haul trucking industry has used EGR at least since '02.

"DDC has extensive experience with EGR. The company has built over 40,000 Series 60 engines with EGR, and the 2004 Mercedes-Benz engines are also equipped with EGR. These engines have performed well in their estimated 2.5 billion miles of service since October 2002. Detroit Diesel also has utilized EGR technology in bus engines since 2000. By 2007, there will be approximately 300,000 Detroit Diesel and Mercedes-Benz engines operating in North America utilizing EGR technology."

"In their late January announcements, both Mack and Volvo said their decisions to go for EGR were much in line with the same thinking. Mack said the decision to concentrate on EGR for its 2007 engines reflected its experience with similar technology in its current ASET engine lineup.
"Mack ASET engines have been in customer trucks since early 2002, and that means no other engine manufacturer has more experience with EGR than we do," said Mack president and CEO Paul Vikner. "Our engines have all been in compliance with the EPA '02 emissions standards since they took effect"

"Volvo also uses EGR to meet the current emissions standard, and said EGR and DPF will be used in North America on the new family of Volvo engines scheduled to be introduced in the 2007 time frame. Its 2007 engines will use ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel, which will be in use in North America by then. Volvo plans to have about 30 engines in field testing with selected customers around the spring of 2005."

well--prior to the bad injector burning a piston--mine had 305,000-and still ised no oil-and would run like scat-stock-so ill just been in a used piston-and a few other new parts-and keep going-like the energiser bunny-----

YES...if you are willing to maintain it.

I'm 1/6 the way there with zero issues. I'm committed to 200K+ on mine before I get rid of it. Like someone mentioned above... maintenance, maintenance, maintenance!

The only people with EGR build up problems are not driving the vehicle properly.

DO NOT DRIVE THIS ENGINE BELOW 2000 RPMS

drive it hard - don't lug the engine (loading it below 2,000 rpms) and it will last a long time and you won't get intake clogging.

You may need to replace a turbo at somepoint, or an injection pump, or injectors, all could be considered "wear items"

But this block will last a couple million miles.

Change the oil at 10k, herm's a great mechanic but a bit cynical

The EGR is only a problem with people who don't pay attention to quality of fuel and who drive the vehicle improperly.

If you keep driving it "hard" then you may indeed have to replace that turbo, pump, etc, sooner rather than later.

If you keep driving it "hard" then you may indeed have to replace that turbo, pump, etc, sooner rather than later.

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Look at it as an opportunity to "upgrade"

I keep mine 2K+ most of the time. Sometimes I lug it at WOT for a smokeshow for some dumbarse tailgater (which is very entertaining)

After 55K miles, I should check my intake. California diesel is cleaner than most tho... I'm only on MAF #2

fuel pump will have to be replaced if you don't have a good fuel filter or good fuel (clean and well lubricated fuel). regardless of how you drive.

if you 'velvetfoot' the car you'll build up carbon around the turbo vanes requiring a cleaning/replacement of the turbo anyway.

Hard - i should have defined meaning - drive it up to 3000-3500 before shifting... not under full load but enough load to exercise the servos, vanes and such...

if you drive the TDI below 2,000 all the time - esp if you don't live in flat land... you WILL have problems with clogged intakes... and sticking turbo vanes... and soot in the oil... and on and on and on...

If you can't drive properly with the manual buy an automatic. my hypothesis is the autos will last much longer than most manuals driven without attention being paid to keep the motor out of the lugging range.

Those who pooh pooh autos are aboout 50% (at least) not driving the way the engine is designed to run. take a ride in an auto to figure out the proper RPM range per a given type of accelleration.

The only thing preventing the TDIs from lasting are uneducated technicians/mechanics and the driving style of the owners.

Let me add (2000 NB AUTOMATIC) - the auto will do it's best to keep the RPM above 2000, and shift by 4000 unless you're really pushing it. You CAN let it drop after the 3rd /4th gears lockup - probably not so great for the car. So, all you manual tranny drivers take this to heart...

Finally a positive to owning an auto. My 2001 auto. almost never shifts before 2800 and usually goes up to about 3200 or more depending on what mood I'm in. Sometimes I like to take it easy, but thats only about 20% of the time, then it'll shift between 2200-2600.
I decided a long time ago that how high your RPMs go doesn't really matter. Case in point a friend of mine had a '90 accord w/280,000+ miles. It was a 5-speed and the car was never shifted before it hit at least 4500 rpms. Of course thats a gasser, but if my TDI lasts me that long I'll be more than satisfied.

it will...and beyond

They will last.!!! NO doubts. Let it warm up for a few seconds in the AM, let the turbo wind down when you stop for a minute, use top notch fuel and additive "every" time , shift it 2600 cold and 3000 warm and run good synthetic oil and watch T-belt maintenance and drive and shift smootly for less wear and tear on powertrain. Bodies are double sided galvanized. They wont rust for a long time. Wax treatment in all the panels, Chassis bottom is tough as concrete. Our family had a 92 Camry Gasser with 545,000kms and was still running like a top(Mobil 1 it's whole life) when sold it (4 Cylinder[2.2Liter] 5 speed LE). The old diesels from VW ran much higher revs on the road and mostly did not run synthetic and many are still running with over 500,000 miles on them.
My 03 TDI (for sale in classifieds, getting a new one) has 120,000kms in 1.5 years and runs like the first day I drove it. NOTHING has gone wrong except one burned headlight. Checked the intake and absolutely perfect. Checked wife's 02 TDI Jetta with 70,000kms and absolutely clean as a whistle and also problem free. Run great fuel and drive em'. NO worries ! CCP

pay attention to quality of fuel

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ok, still new to diesel fuel. there are only a few diesel pumps arround my house. what do you suggest i do to "pay attention" to the quality of the fuel? i do add the additives on every fillup, however i am very curious about knowing about the quality of fuel. none of the pumps have any marking as to the centane levels or anything else for that matter. the attendants dont know didly about it either.

To get 'good' fuel try and fill up only at stations w/high diesel traffic. Most likely a truck stop, or a filling station around a major highway.
I got bad fuel a few months ago at a Sheetz station and the smoke out of my Jetta was horrible and acceleration sucked as well.

In my opinion this engine likely can run a million miles but I doubt the car would hold up.

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I found some old notes today, written by my Saab mechanic. No date on them, so I don't know if all those problems were present at 270k miles or sometime earlier. All I know is that the 1984 Saab is still parked outside, with 292k miles on the odometer, and it still runs okay, but it is beat to hell.

I think the TDI engine will run for 500k miles, and I'm counting on at least 300k miles. (I'll be close to that when my 60-month loan is paid off.)

But a lot of other things might break between now and then, both mechanical and electrical. I've budgeted $1200/year, $6000 total, for repairs during the first 300k miles... and I should be okay as long as I don't have to open up the engine.

I guess the best thing to do would be talk to people who have owned a Mark III Jetta or Golf for about 10 years, and find out what stuff they've had to replace. CV joints, steering racks, alternators, brake master cylinders -- those things break on every car, sooner or later. Clutches and transmissions depend on how you drive.

With TDIs you've got turbochargers and fuel injection pumps, both very expensive. There are things you can do to shorten their lives, but I'm not sure if you can do anything to make them last forever.

I think if you drive enough miles, you save enough on fuel costs to pay for the repairs and maintenance. If you don't drive that much... you just have to hope not much breaks.

Never put any of the above mentioned items on my A2, and it is very similar to an A3.

It is little things that are likely to give issues, and most of these are easily fixed.

original quote byr_Greg

...Is the TDI a "long-hauler" or a "flash in the pan?"

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It's a long-hauler. Your VAG dealership is not.

I don't fear the equation of longevity in TDi. It's built into the formula.

I do fear the service mechanics at Volkswagen who gets their hands on my car making a total mess of something simple.

I do fear a bill for $1,500 diagnosed with a blown turbo for a vacuum leak or boost controller valve at $75.

I do fear a motor falling to the ground after a timing belt and new torque to yield bolts not used.

I do fear an oil change with oil that was not meant for my motor.

M.D.