Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the TDI Engine

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

there is 505.0 and 505.1

different but similar spec's

if the dealer doesn't have the proper Castrol Syntec 5W-40 for your PD they can get it and you must insist they get it. It isn't the cheapest option and thats still about all that is wrong with it, and all that ever was wrong with it. Castrol Syntec 5W-40 is fine for 10k mile changes but just not as cheap/inexpensive as say the Petro Canada Duron 5W-40.

I still don't quite understand the problem with not having Delvac-1 in canada with Duron Synthetic 5w-40 availible...

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

I agree GEWILLI,Delvac 1 is great,but it is not the be all and end all of the oil world.

PC Duron is great also,readily available ,and cheaper !

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

Where do you get the PC Duron in Toronto please?

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

Toronto? Dunno (i'm in michigan) but there are a bunch of users there - and the Big Plant isn't terribly far away.

And rumor was that any Duron lubrication retail location was "required" to stock a certain amount of Duron 5W-40 synthetic. its in a silver bottle btw.

Others may have more specific info

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

As a recognized global leader in lubricant technology, Petro-Canada blends and packages more than 350 lubricant products that are exported into virtually every industrialized country in the world. Their patented 2-Stage Severe Hydrocracking process produces lubricant base oils that are crystal-clear…99.5+ % pure – a level impossible to achieve with traditional solvent refining. This process, which yields finished lubricants with synthetic-like performance, is one of the many advantages that have made Petro-Canada a world leader in product innovation.

Click to expand...

In 1996, Petro-Canada took this process one step further. They replaced the solvent dewaxing step with a more modern wax conversion process…Hydroisomerization.

When employed with Petro-Canada’s Severe Hydrocracking process, Hydroisomerization dewaxing yields base oils with the following beneficial features: <ul type="square">

[*]Very High Viscosity Index (100 to 130)
[*]Low Volatility
[*]Better Biodegradability
[*]Superior Oxidation Resistance
[*]High Thermal Stability
[*]Excellent Low Temperature Fluidity [*]Low Toxicity [/list]

These features give performance characteristics in finished lubricants very similar to synthetics, but at significantly lower prices!



Traditional solvent refined base oils are considered to be only "80% PURE" due to their approximate level if impurities (aromatics) being 20%. Petro-Canada’s Severely Hydrocracked base oils are termed "99.5+ % PURE" due to the virtual elimination of aromatic molecules.

Click to expand...

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

I have been using 15w-40 dino oil, and just switched to syn oil, mobil-1 5w-40 Diesel (suv & truck). it looks to have the same specs as the Delvac-1 5w-40, but it is much less money$$$$. I hate to use a 5w-40, and would prefer 15w-50 or 20w-50. I live in temps never below 33 Deg F but up to 110 Deg f. mostly 60F to 90 F, and need the thicker oil.
I can not find such a thing localy (say at Walmart) for low cost like this mobil-1 5w-40 Diesel (suv truck).
Does anyone know if this is the same as the Delvac-1 5w-40???? or is it a gimmick?

Thanks
John

Click to expand...

John

I get Amsoil 15W-40 delivered to my door for about $14.20/gallon plus tax and shipping (I buy 2 2.5 gallon jugs at a time). Total is about $17.50/gallon...and I don't have to leave my computer!

The Mobil Truck and SUV is $20.60/gallon here in Houston and I have to go to the store to get it.

Just an idea...


Tim

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

and i still think Group III are the best thing for the TDI... best cost per value...

esp if you are doing a short 10,000 mile change. If you run to 20,000 miles or longer you can get the cost back but a good group III with the right additive package will perform just as good sa a group IV if not better (i believe better based on soot issues, but some of the high temperature stuff might not be as good)

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

and i still think Group III are the best thing for the TDI... best cost per value...

esp if you are doing a short 10,000 mile change. If you run to 20,000 miles or longer you can get the cost back but a good group III with the right additive package will perform just as good sa a group IV if not better (i believe better based on soot issues, but some of the high temperature stuff might not be as good)

Click to expand...

Agreed, I think that's a nice "state of the art" summary for TDis operating in NAmerica.

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

I have a theory Id like to share on PCV issue and buildup and maybe a question as well: The consensus is thet in Europe they dont have the intake build up becuase of the lower sulpher fuel and I agree partly with that, but what about the oil? In Europe where 506.01 is available and used in the flex interval cars, would the group 4 higher vapor point also help contribute less oil vapor from mixing with the soot from the EGR? Could the use of group 4 lessen the build up in our NA PD's?

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

I have a theory Id like to share on PCV issue and buildup and maybe a question as well: The consensus is thet in Europe they dont have the intake build up becuase of the lower sulpher fuel and I agree partly with that, but what about the oil? In Europe where 506.01 is available and used in the flex interval cars, would the group 4 higher vapor point also help contribute less oil vapor from mixing with the soot from the EGR? Could the use of group 4 lessen the build up in our NA PD's?

Click to expand...

J, I'd like to say the cars in Europe do run EGR/CCV and they suffer from the same problem. The rate of clogging is much slower due to their superior, lo sulfur fuel.

Yes, you are correct in suggesting that one should attempt to minimize the oily vapors generated and people measure this in terms of NOACK. You'd want a low NOACK value. Sad to say, but the GrIV/V oils do not enjoy a clear superiority in this area. It's typical that the GrIII products have comparable NOACK. For example, Delvac 1 has a NOACK number of 13% which is the uppermost limit permitted. At the opposite end of the spectrum, look at the AMSOIL products. They generally have very lo NOACK values. I believe their new 5W40 oil has a NOACK number of 5.3%. That's unheard of when compared against the other popular oils consumed here at Fred's and does make a strong argument in AMSOIL's favor. As everyone knows, this is a product for pre-PD cars ONLY.

MBz is focused on this area as well. The two specs you can look for are 229.3 and 229.5 which will indicate tighter NOACK limits.

Back to your question: I have seen the NOACK numbers for the 505.01 and 506.01 oils and they were less than spectacular. IIRC, they were in the 10-11% range. However, you could generally expect a Group4/5 product to be more stable so there may be some minimal benefit.

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

and i still think Group III are the best thing for the TDI... best cost per value...

esp if you are doing a short 10,000 mile change. If you run to 20,000 miles or longer you can get the cost back but a good group III with the right additive package will perform just as good sa a group IV if not better (i believe better based on soot issues, but some of the high temperature stuff might not be as good)

Click to expand...

You might wanna try Esso Extra XD-3 0w40 full synthetic. Group IV oil, I pay $76CDN AFTER tax for a 4x4L case..


The owner of the depot that I purchase it from just switched his entire fleet from Delvac1 to XD-3. I am pretty sure he knows more about oil then anyone here

Food for thought.

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

and i still think Group III are the best thing for the TDI... best cost per value...

Click to expand...

Hmm... and most 505.01 oils are Group III aren't they?

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

This is a great thread. My first 35000km was on dealer dino because I did not know any better. I then went to semi synthetic, then group III synthtic (Chevron and Duron 5W40) and now Delvac1. Up until I used Delvac, my 98 TDI consumed a half a litre (~pint) every 5000km. With D1, it is a half a litre every 8000km. (I log every km for fuel and maintainance). I have yet to try Amsoil (5W40, 10W40?). Should I mix 50/50 D1/delo400?...Amsoil?. I am really curious about Esso XD3 extra 0W40 PAO. Great price. Right now, based on personal data, I prefer a group iv/v oil, however, if I see data that showing lower wear data with lower oil consumption with a group III(I have had a clogged intake manifold), I would give it a go.

BH

ttt

Click to expand...

?....I thought this thread was dead!

Re: Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the

Ok DD..you are now the OFFICIAL oil war trouble maker of the week....bringing stuff like this back up to the top...you should be ashamed *tisk,tisk,tisk*

O dear...

Maybe we could make this a sticky? Moderators?

dieseldorf said:

Click to expand...

^^^^^ what he said ^^^^^

TooSlick said:

Any "impurities" in Group III basestocks, such as sulphur or more VI modifier, will result in the formation of very hard carbonaeous deposits on both the piston crowns and the ring grooves.

Click to expand...

Sulphur would be an impurity.

A VI enhancer would not be.

The problem with Group III comes when you try to fashion a high VI index formula by tipping the VI enhancer bottle a little more.

There are VI enhancers that don't break down and cause deposits, but the cost of them is so high that there is no advantage to using them. It's cheaper to go the PAO route.

So, if you wanted a straight SAE 30 diesel oil you could fashion a suitable one using Group III with little trouble.

These high temperature/high pressure issues are similar to some found in some air-cooled engines. That's why, for example, the V-Twin 20W-50 Mobil 1 is a two-PAO blend with no VI enhancer.

I can show you guys a (gasser) turbo that is coked up solid due to blend oils. There is no way I would consider a GIII oil for any turbocharged engine.

Chris

cujet said:

I can show you guys a (gasser) turbo that is coked up solid due to blend oils. There is no way I would consider a GIII oil for any turbocharged engine.

Chris

Click to expand...

Thats just a blanket statement...

Nothing wrong with group 3 especially one that can beat a group 4 oil in certain areas. Obviously the industry agrees since Mobil has switched over.

Thermo1223 said:

Obviously the industry agrees since Mobil has switched over.

Click to expand...

Switched over to what?

Thermo1223 said:

.... Obviously the industry agrees since Mobil has switched over.

Click to expand...

That is a rumor, not a fact.

And I know the source of the rumor.

ExxonMobil is apparently using some Group III in at least some viscosities of the Mobil 1 EP formula. This is an oil for gasoline engines with a high initial TBN designed to retain that TBN for an extended period. It is completely unsuitable for use in TDI engines in any case.

I have been unable to find any evidence that any of the previously existing Mobil 1 formulas were altered. Some, like the two motorcycle oils and Delvac 1, would have had to be substantially reformulated to use Group III.

There was some Mobil 1 without the API starburst after Katrina. Certain ExxonMobil facilities were damaged in that hurricane and interim formulas were used until they got back on line.

Also there is a PAO (polyalphaolefin) shortage. ExxonMobil first raised the price of PAO and more recently has not been offering it for sale since it needs its production for internal use in its own finished products. There is a huge demand for high quality ATFs and motor oils incorporating PAOs.

I would expect to see more Group III use across the industry as PAO prices continue to climb.