PD TDI's Hard to Start First Time in the Day, No Problem Thereafter All Day

magna413 · Feb 4, 2013

Hello, my problem was that the injector seals were bad. The upper red seal was even so bad it was visibly broken. New set of seals, injector bolts, rocker arm bolts and problem is history.

Lowerd · Aug 1, 2013

Well, I have had the Golf for 2 weeks and all was good till 3 days ago when the tank finally got low enough that on a slight incline at work (nose first) it would wind over for 10sec before firing to life. I had noticed an air bubbe in the clear line when parked on the flat an wondered if diesel was draining back to the tank and sure enough it was whenever parked on an incline.
Google popped up this thread so thought I would give it a shot today, crimping the line into the filter still allowed some to drain back but crimping from filter to IP stopped it so check valve went there.
So far it is looking good tho.

Lowerd · Aug 2, 2013

Well I stand corrected, that didn't fix my problem, the diesel is now draining the other way (towards the IP) so now I need to work out if its somehow feeding back down the return line or is it possible to leak through the IP into the motor? As I can't see diesel leaks anywhere.
Any help much appreciated guys.

Lowerd · Aug 2, 2013

Well thought I would see if filling tank back up would help and sure enough it doesn't leak back and no bubbles at all in the clear line. Beginning to wonder if maybe the return line is no submerged in the tank properly and under half tank it allows the diesel to bleed back.

usernamehere · Aug 3, 2013

Lowerd said:
Well thought I would see if filling tank back up would help and sure enough it doesn't leak back and no bubbles at all in the clear line. Beginning to wonder if maybe the return line is no submerged in the tank properly and under half tank it allows the diesel to bleed back.

Try turning the key forward but not enough to start it. The pump should come on. Then turn off, then do it again. Three times, on the fourth try to start it. Let me know if it works, it works on gas cars/trucks. Sometimes you only need to do it twice. Just play with it.

Lowerd · Aug 3, 2013

usernamehere said:
Try turning the key forward but not enough to start it. The pump should come on. Then turn off, then do it again. Three times, on the fourth try to start it. Let me know if it works, it works on gas cars/trucks. Sometimes you only need to do it twice. Just play with it.

Will need to give it a week till the tank is back down to 1/2 again but will let you know.

DanG144 · Aug 3, 2013

Lowerd,
The return line is not submerged in fuel except when the tank is about 3/4 full.
You are posting in a PD engine thread about a VE injection pump engine, it seems, based on your using the words IP.

If this is the case then the possible failure modes and fixes are quite different.

Typically what you are seeing is due to air leaks on fuel lines for you engine. This includes the injector return lines and the IP return lines, the fuel filter, thermo tee, and all hose connections in both the supply and return.

Some early fuel pickup designs (we have no indication of the age of your car or engine) had a check valve built into the very slender fuel pickup tube. This check valve tended to clog with even the finest of debris or biologic growth in the tank. Some others had a check valve in the supply line close to where it went onto the fuel pickup assembly that could have the same problems.

But more often it was either the tiny fuel return lines on the injectors or the thermo tee on the fuel filter cracked or having bad O-rings.

There are other, less probable, failure modes but I would check these first, if it were mine.

Lowerd · Aug 3, 2013

Thanks DanG144,
Car is a 2001 TDi, I am new to VW and no nothing about models etc or what I really have

I am really struggling with it tho as the problem is very fuel tank level related but will possibly start going through your suggestions and see how we go. Fortunately it is just a car I brought for the wife so I have time but don't want to waste money.

DanG144 · Aug 4, 2013

It does sound to me as if you should go through the fuel tank pickup assembly, ensuring that it is intact and clean, no check valve plugging. Clean out the fuel tank (you can hand wipe it through the pickup mounting port) at the same time.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4085506

Is probably directly applicable to your car, based on the year it was built.

DanG144 · Aug 4, 2013

I would also replace the small segments of small hose that daisy chain from injector to injector, then go to the IP fuel return line fixture. These are very common air inleakage points on a car of this age.

Lowerd · Aug 5, 2013

But more often it was either the tiny fuel return lines on the injectors or the thermo tee on the fuel filter cracked or having bad O-rings. There are other said:
So I started today with the filter, when I removed the Tee there was no suction noise and i could see the top of the filter so diesel is certainly draing back, etc so thought I'd follow you advice Dan and replaced the 2 O-rings. Started it up and and after a minute any bubbles were gone, have switched it off and will check tomorrow morning to see if The clear line drained back again. Will update tomorrow either way.

But thank you to those that post an also sorry to the thread originator for hijacking your thread and with the wrong type of TDi

Lowerd · Aug 11, 2013

Just to update how I'm getting on, so everytime I did something like replace o-rings, fuel line clamps etc it would Make a difference but then the problem would return

Well on Saturday I got the urge to remove the filter and as it turns out during its last service 4 weeks ago I'd say that person working on it may have drained any water out of the seperator tap as it was very loose.
So a few days on and aside from a very small bubble in the line when I switch the car off it does not appear to be draining back to the tank when sitting for long periods and no bubbles in the line when running.

Thank you to those that were able to help and hopefully this may elp someone else in the future.

AnnaTDI · Jan 30, 2015

kpiazzisi said:
I just discovered that there is a link between my failed tandem pump and my car producing white smoke. I have had a failed tandem pump for a few months now. I simply just let the car crank for a minute and it eventually starts. A couple of times now the car has started producing white smoke. I realized that changing the oil solves the problem. I drained my oil yesturday and had 5 quarts after I drained the drain pan into a 5 qt container. I figure there was probably another half a qt trapped in the motor. I only put 4 qt in the engine when I changed the oil. What is happening is that I believe fuel is mixing with the oil due to a failed tandem pump. Here is what it says in the VW manual.

"The tandem pump must be checked for internal leaks between fuel side and oil side after reinstalling a used tandem pump, for example after renewing or repairing a cylinder head and/or when installing a “short” engine. When leaking it is possible for the fuel to mix with the oil, which may cause the engine to fail. "

Colorado_Al said:
Carl, you are right on on this one!!!
Again I clamped the fuel hose overnight, and when I started it this morning at 25 degrees (even without my frostheater plugged in) it turned right over!
I had suspected that it was losing prime for a while, but had not gone this far to troubleshoot.
I will be adding a check valve this weekend!
I wonder how many people have been talked into a new fuel pump and labor (and talked out of $400) by the VW dealer just because their check valve failed?
A 10 dollar part and 5 minutes to fix...
Thanks again Carl!!!

WOW - is it possible that after 7 months of searching and $$$$ and several mechanics telling me its my injectors (no thank you) all i need is a check valve?? i am going to try this with the pliers for a week or so and see what results.

question - is there a downside to adding said check valve if this is in fact not the issue? i have a range of symptoms that include very difficult start but great performance once warm, white smoke (unburned diesel) on startup, was losing oil for a while (not consistently), and low MPGs (maybe this is unrelated)... i would be very intrigued if after all this is the issue. i've already replaced my lift pump so i've ruled that out. and if this is a common issue - would replacing the tandem pump solve the issue if it's likely the seal will just fail again?? its about $325 on idparts, I'm willing to do this (if it comes to it) if it will keep up...

here's my thread on my hard start issues in case you are curious...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=424654

barnaderg · Aug 20, 2015

problem starting 2006 vw tdi only after laying overnight

Before installing the check valve. I replaced tank pump. Tandem pump. also brake booster line. nothing worked. I checked it like you said pinching the fuel line and it started every time. How long do you think this will work. There has to be a problem else where. Thanks for helping. I would appreciate your thought on this.

JB05 · Aug 20, 2015

I'm a bit skeptical of this check valve mod. barnaderg, you should find someone to properly scan your Jetta, if this is the car you are referring to.

AnnaTDI · Aug 21, 2015

for the record - i did not need a check valve. instead, needed a new camshaft. you know, nbd..........

Carl Ulli · Feb 28, 2016

Hello all who might still be interested in this post. I have not been posting for a long time now but yesterday I saw my father-in-law again and we were talking about that car about which I started this thread. I thought I should update you all on what he told me. In his case the dealership tried everything to fix it for him. That included the new lift pump in the tank, the check valve in the fuel line, and they also went through a lengthy glow plug story, but that would all be covered in other threads.

So the last thing that the mechanics told him was they suspected some very fine hair-line cracks in the fuel rail in the cylinder head. That was the last straw for my father-in-law so he traded it in for a new Golf. This means that there will be no more conclusive observations we can make about that particular car. I share this for those of you who may be puzzled about the various theories surrounding the check valve and why the need for it. In our case the check valve was a temporary solution because the "Hard starting first time - in - the - day, no problem thereafter all day" symptom did come back after some time. It is as though these hair line cracks became worse over time so the check valve no longer worked.

There are a few posts in this thread that are not exactly true to the title of this thread. I just wanted to be clear on this. All the best to you all, Carl

DanG144 · Feb 29, 2016

Thanks for posting what you know.

Golfcar · Dec 13, 2016

Great thread. I was struggling with this issue over a year, replaced my lift pump twice and all it was just a $20 check valve. Hopefully the first post will be added to the main FAQ. Thank you Carl Ulli!

anderlis83 · Jan 20, 2017

Very long cranking and hard start on a cold start

I am a newbie here but I'm desperately looking for some help.

I have a 2003 VW Beetle 1.9L TDI Diesel
219K miles with 1 prior owner. I bought this beetle in 2014 and all required maintaince was performed as I have documentation to verify this. About a month ago, I experienced a runaway. The runaway did not consume all of my engine oil. It was about 1/4-1/2 quart low. Initially bringing the car into the shop, they believed the runaway was due to being overfilled with oil. I assured them I highly doubted that scenario and asked if my turbo was to fault. They later told me the waste gate was stuck open but after working the gate, they were able to free it up. Now moving on......simultaneously after the runaway experience my engine is now experiencing long cranking and hard starts. The mechanic then ran various tests: a compression test (which I do not have the numbers for but according to the mechanic checked out good), an injection pump test--which they said was the culprit. Cylinder 2 was misfiring and the injection pump was thought to be the problem. Thinking this would fix the problem, I authorized the fix. Once the new injection pump was on the car started up great, according to the mechanic. Upon a road test, the car (according to the mechanic) started smoking so they checked the intercooler and oil had pooled up in here. My turbo had failed and fed oil into the intercooler, which the mechanic states caused the original runaway. So, at this point they advised a new turbo or to cut my loses and sell the car, which I was tempted to do but at this point since I had spent money to fix the injection pump I felt like my only option was to fix the turbo thinking this would resolve all my issues. They get the new turbo on and now the car began with long cranking and hard staring issues again. The smoking had decreased but still smoking some. They called and wanted to do additional testing at no cost to me aside from my time, which I thought was great and is. They did a cold compression test, checked the timing, fuel lines, camshaft, glowpugs amoung other I am not recalling. They have stated that they have run out of tests to do at this point and the last thing they would go to is cleaning my intake manifold and valves. Also, since the injection pump did not permantly fix my issue, they are not charging me for that service or several of the other things tested. This is a great shop and I am very pleased with how they are handling things but maybe someone here has had a similar problem and found a solution. Please help!!!!!!

maxmoo · Jan 20, 2017

anderlis83 said:
I am a newbie here but I'm desperately looking for some help.

I have a 2003 VW Beetle 1.9L TDI Diesel
219K miles with 1 prior owner. I bought this beetle in 2014 and all required maintaince was performed as I have documentation to verify this. About a month ago, I experienced a runaway. The runaway did not consume all of my engine oil. It was about 1/4-1/2 quart low. Initially bringing the car into the shop, they believed the runaway was due to being overfilled with oil. I assured them I highly doubted that scenario and asked if my turbo was to fault. They later told me the waste gate was stuck open but after working the gate, they were able to free it up. Now moving on......simultaneously after the runaway experience my engine is now experiencing long cranking and hard starts. The mechanic then ran various tests: a compression test (which I do not have the numbers for but according to the mechanic checked out good), an injection pump test--which they said was the culprit. Cylinder 2 was misfiring and the injection pump was thought to be the problem. Thinking this would fix the problem, I authorized the fix. Once the new injection pump was on the car started up great, according to the mechanic. Upon a road test, the car (according to the mechanic) started smoking so they checked the intercooler and oil had pooled up in here. My turbo had failed and fed oil into the intercooler, which the mechanic states caused the original runaway. So, at this point they advised a new turbo or to cut my loses and sell the car, which I was tempted to do but at this point since I had spent money to fix the injection pump I felt like my only option was to fix the turbo thinking this would resolve all my issues. They get the new turbo on and now the car began with long cranking and hard staring issues again. The smoking had decreased but still smoking some. They called and wanted to do additional testing at no cost to me aside from my time, which I thought was great and is. They did a cold compression test, checked the timing, fuel lines, camshaft, glowpugs amoung other I am not recalling. They have stated that they have run out of tests to do at this point and the last thing they would go to is cleaning my intake manifold and valves. Also, since the injection pump did not permantly fix my issue, they are not charging me for that service or several of the other things tested. This is a great shop and I am very pleased with how they are handling things but maybe someone here has had a similar problem and found a solution. Please help!!!!!!

First off your problem deserves it's own thread.....I would repost the above with a new thread title like "Help needed with issues after a run away".

It sounds to me like your shop is not that familiar with tdi's......I would look for a tdi guru in your area.

I suspect that after changing the inj pump (which may not have needed replacing) the timing was not set properly......this is critical.

Another thing that can happen during a run away sometimes is that the injector nozzles can become plugged with oil or carbon due to the extreme pressures encountered due to the excess oil in the combustion chamber.
If that is the case the injectors should be sent out to be overhauled by someone that has the proper tools and knowledge,(I like using DBW).

Also after a blown turbo there is usualy a lot of oil in your exhaust and catalytic converter that will take a while to burn off.....causing exhaust smoke.

Having said all that, I am not that experienced in runaways........others here will likely be of more help.

anderlis83 · Jan 21, 2017

Thank you so much! I will definitely do that. I don't know how to post a new thread though.

chickensoup2180 · Jun 18, 2022

I have a small fuel leak at the filter on my 05 BHW PD. I also have the same EXACT symptoms of first starts as described in the OP's initial post. Could the leak be enough to cause my issue on low tanks? I just replaced my tandem pump btw. Thanks

Genesis · Jun 18, 2022

If fuel is leaking out air is leaking in. And yep.

chickensoup2180 · Jun 18, 2022

Genesis said:
If fuel is leaking out air is leaking in. And yep.

Yup thanks. I fixed it earlier and tested it. Good as new. Im a happy camper. New fuel line cured the illness.

PD TDI's Hard to Start First Time in the Day, No Problem Thereafter All Day

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