B4's vs. B5's

tbones

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Location
Annapolis, Maryland
TDI
1996 Passat wagon tdi, 1991 Corrado TDI (sold)1983 Vanagon 7pass.GL 1.6td 1982 Westy;THE PHOENIX 1.6na(NOW JX/5speed) my partner's 2014 Jetta Sportwagon 6spd manual AND MY NEW TOY/PROJECT... Sunny, a bright yellow 87 syncro Westy with 1Z TDI motor
hi gang,

NOT that I'm thinking buying one, but why are the 96-97 tdi's the same price or MORE expensive than the 04-05 Passat tdi's?

I ASSUME the ride would be much nicer in the newer model, and parts availability much better... (I know they only came to N. America with automatics... but still...

thoughts?

regards,
Steve
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
I've owned both.

All depends on condition. The B4's, as they are now 20 years old or more, are getting hard to find in good condition, whereas the B5's are still more plentiful.

The ride is better in the B5, and you are right about the parts - there are many that are NLA for the B4.

Properly "fixed" the B5's are very good - but that takes some money and effort - The Balance shaft module needs to be addressed, the Cam needs to be looked as it is a weak point, and the automatic is expensive to reman, and only has a limited lifespan.

Many have started to convert to manual transmissions on the B5.

I do miss my B4 however, and if a wagon showed up at the right price... :D
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
2005 Passat daily, a bunch of others in the graveyard out back...
in my eyes, its because those of us foolish enough to own B4's fall into 1 of 2 categories. Fallen in love with them and are unwilling to part with them regardless of condition... or have maintained them very well, with well chosen, tasteful upgrades, making them worth a bit more to most TDI enthusiasts.

Im in the 1st category, its literally falling apart around me. But at 425k+ on the body, and many salty wisconsin winters i cannot blame it... But you still couldnt pry the keys and title outta my cold dead fingers.

Everytime something breaks, i contemplate parting with the red death... so i browse craigslist and realize nothing has the same combo of economy, ease of maintenance, passenger space and low purchase price as a B4.

the closest alternative for me is an A1/A2 TDI swap (super light, straightforward swap) or an early B5 TDI swap (better parts availability, newer chassis, AWD is possible).
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
the closest alternative for me is an A1/A2 TDI swap (super light, straightforward swap) or an early B5 TDI swap (better parts availability, newer chassis, AWD is possible).
...Or, move to Canada and import a manual AWD B5 VW or Audi TDI from 2002 or earlier, as we can import anything as long as it's 15 years or older. :D
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
2005 Passat daily, a bunch of others in the graveyard out back...
my other hobby doesnt jive well with Canada... most of my rifles are not legal there.

I wish that we could import things only 15 years old. lol. 25 yr rule is garbage. I kinda think its only still in existence because domestic automakers couldnt even compete on quality with 15yr old imports.

id rather drive a 20 year old VW than a 10 year old Chevy.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
B5 chassis is higher maint and the tdi only came with the icky AT from the factory. Also the engine has that balance shaft thingy and they didn't do so hot on mpg either. IIRC the B5.5 TDI was only able to obtain about 40 mpg max in factory form.

IMO a B5.5 tdi isn't worth the premium some are asking for them, I'd rather have a 1.8T MT B5.5 wagon or better yet a 1.8T MT B5.5 4motion wagon.

Steve
 

lisab4

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Location
Belgium
TDI
1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
My sister had a B5. I found my B4 drives much nicer. It's a drivers car, you "feel" it. The B5 just drives, that's it.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
Don't forget about that multi-link front suspension on the B5's.....
I'm not forgetting, it's a great design but high maintenance and expensive to overhaul. Most B5/5.5's out there now need serious suspension work but they won't get it because they're already way up on the miles or they've been sold to people who will just run them into the ground.

B5's and B5.5's made their way to the JY's faster than B4's did. B6's are starting to show up with some regularity now too.

I'll keep my simple old suspension thank you very much!

Steve A
 

tbones

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Location
Annapolis, Maryland
TDI
1996 Passat wagon tdi, 1991 Corrado TDI (sold)1983 Vanagon 7pass.GL 1.6td 1982 Westy;THE PHOENIX 1.6na(NOW JX/5speed) my partner's 2014 Jetta Sportwagon 6spd manual AND MY NEW TOY/PROJECT... Sunny, a bright yellow 87 syncro Westy with 1Z TDI motor
Hey everybody,

Thanks for your replies! I visit junkyards frequently too, and yes, I'm seeing a lot of them show up there… Much to my surprise.

I guess I'll keep running my B4V... I hate automatics, and as mentioned above I really like the way it drives! Still, to see still shiny,unRusty clean-interiored 04 or 05 begging to be purchased for $2000 or so keeps me thinking…

Regards,

Steve
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
You guys do realize the B5 Passats were around longer and outsold the B4 by a WIDE margin, right? That is why there are so many more out there and more show up in salvage yards. Couple that with a more complex car, meaning it takes a little more attention to keep them in good order. They are essentially a VW-branded Audi A4 (although the A4 did get some updates later on that the Passat did not).

I think the two cars are VERY different, and aside from the fact that they share the same model name, have virtually nothing in common. The B5 Passat is closer to a $90k 2005 Phaeton and a B4 Passat is closer to a $9k 1985 Golf. They are that different.

I've owned both, I prefer the B5. But I know it is a more expensive and more complex car. It also drives much nicer, handles better, stops better, has more power, etc. But I do give a nod to the more ergonomic "box" style that the older cars had. They have better rear headroom (sedans) and better trunk opening and space (sedans).

At this point, the B4s, the few that are left, are survivor cars that are either amazingly well preserved or held together with duct tape and chewing gum. Many parts are NLA for them, so it is hard to even make them nice again even if you wanted to. I have only had one in here so far all this year, and it was a [rare] ABA 2.0L gasser. It was not in the greatest condition. I cannot recall the last one I saw here before that. I think it was someone passing through that blew an intercooler hose, that we found was NLA, and he limped away towards home with no functional turbo. :(
 

Col Sanders

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Location
Illinois
TDI
97 B4 Green And it's Possessed 2001 Audi A4 AFN SWAP
I have a B4 & A4. I keep a list of maintenance, repairs. B4 has 40 items on the list. Some small, most are not. Just ask Steve Addy! My help Guru. 324000 and climbing. Car has hardly any rust, floor pans, trunk pans are very clean. No water leaks.

The A4 is a 2001 TDI swap. AFN, 5 spd. All the parts came from Frans at DAP. Can't say enough for Frans, great guy who sends the best. As oilhammer says, yes the A4 drives a lot nicer than the B4. More parts around, then there is Frans if nothing is available here. The rear seat and trunk are smaller. 99% of time I'm by myself, don't matter about rear. Going to sell my B4, can't justify keeping both. B4 was a great learning experience. Love the Diesels !
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
The B4 has a slight advantage on rear legroom - about an inch over the B5. That said, the passat B5 is stretched over the Audi A4 of the same vintage. The rear legroom is still quite good - at 6'2", I can sit behind myself comfortably in either car.
 

tbones

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Location
Annapolis, Maryland
TDI
1996 Passat wagon tdi, 1991 Corrado TDI (sold)1983 Vanagon 7pass.GL 1.6td 1982 Westy;THE PHOENIX 1.6na(NOW JX/5speed) my partner's 2014 Jetta Sportwagon 6spd manual AND MY NEW TOY/PROJECT... Sunny, a bright yellow 87 syncro Westy with 1Z TDI motor
I MIGHT consider a 5 or 6 speed manual tranny B5 model... if it ever landed in my lap... but that's even more rare that my B4V!
 
Last edited:

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
I MIGHT consider a 5 or 6 speed manual tranny B5 model... if it ever landed in my lap... but that's ever more rare that my B4V!
Many conversions vibrate a lot. Even the B5.5 in stock form vibrated more that I would like and I had two of them with less than 90 K miles on each. Both were converted to a gear driven balance shaft.

Nice cars, but very unique and require attention. I loved the wagon I had, but got tired of changing outer CV boots.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I've owned two B4s (a V and a sedan, which I still have). I haven't owned a B5.5 TDI, but I did have a B5 Audi A4 for several years. The B5 is a far more refined car in many ways. But the B4 has its appeal, despite its rather crude nature by current standards.

But B4s are pretty much a thing of the past. Rust, wear and tear, lack of parts availability, and their old car driving experience are causing values to fall dramatically. People who keep them (probably most of the people posting here) hang on for reasons other than logic. I know that's true for me. I like my B4, but I rarely drive it. I think of selling it but it's not worth much, so why would I? And as soon as I do one of my kids will need a car. So I hang on to it.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I think one reason the B4 TDIs held their value unusually well for a while was that there was nothing else available like them. The B5 came out in 1998, but it was not until 2004 that we got a diesel version. So during that time, the B4s literally had NO competition. None. Nothing at all even came close. And they really did not sell that many here to begin with. 1995s were all gas. 1996 the TDI came out, and every one we got here sold pretty quickly, and the diesels were MUCH more popular than the 4cyl gas or the VR6. So much so, that after a couple months the 1997 model year dropped the gas 4cyl altogether and made the TDI the standard engine. However, that same year the Jetta got the TDI option. This meant that a lot of the George Costanza types that were purchasing Passat TDIs solely for low fuel consumption reasons, just bought the cheaper Jetta instead. So 1997 Passat TDI sales were not as strong, and the new B5 came out early in June of 1997. And if you drove a new 1997 Passat TDI back to back with a new 1998 Passat 1.8t, you very quickly came up with reasons why you did not need a diesel. Lots of people did. And with a TDI version of the B5 promised, I include myself in that. I waited patiently, and when it was clearly not going to happen, I bought one of the last 1998 Jetta TDIs brought to our dealership. I would have bought a '97 Passat, but by then they were all gone.

But the 1998 Passat was a VERY popular car, I can only imagine it would have been even more popular had a diesel engine been offered. Only it got overshadowed very quickly by the other big thing that happened at Volkswagen in 1998, and that DID get a diesel! :)
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
VW completely botched reintroduction of diesel into the US in 1996, the B4 should have been much more heavily promoted. The Mk3 was a bigger success but even then less than 2% of Jettas in 1997 were tdi. It wasn't until 1998 that the numbers were better, but they promised a Golf Mk3 tdi and then backed out on that like they did on the B5 Passat tdi.

These were seriously stupid moves by people who were supposed to be professionals. VW even had three or four B5 TDI cars stateside as traveling demo cars, one of which is in MN, the other three I think are in JY's by now.

Personally I am not a fan of the Jetta, I wanted a Mk3 Golf TDI, but the asses never kept their promise to bring it. Now I suppose it doesn't matter but a lot of people were let down when those promises were broken.

Steve
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Keep in mind that VW was limited in the number of TDIs they could bring in by corporate average emissions. 2-3% of production was about the limit, I think.

Even later it was difficult to find a TDI. I wanted a Golf in 2002, couldn't find one despite working with dealers both in Massachusetts and Colorado. Finally got IBW because another customer got tired of waiting. It was one of two TDI wagons my dealer got that year.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Volkswagen was having a lot of issues with things in this market at that time, but was on a pretty strong rebound even before the 1998 boom from the NB and new Passat.

CAFE did not matter much due to the small market share they had and the fact that they didn't have a bunch of serious gas guzzlers and trucks to worry about. They even had some early emissions stuff that was LEGALLY turned off, like SAI, because as our instructor put it "they didn't sell enough cars here to worry about it".

The turnaround they did during the '90s was pretty amazing. Shame it all went to crap in the last couple years. :(
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Their turnaround really gained momentum with the MKIV cars. Although the B5 Passat sold well, I think the MKIV Jetta Sedan saved the company in this market. Unfortunately they've yet to duplicate that success, although the MKVI Jetta Sedan has also sold well.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Agreed. Volkswagen really needs more product offerings here. Unfortunately, they seem to be headed to a place where we JUST are going to get Americanized stuff for us. Atlas, anyone? :rolleyes:

Sad, because their product portfolio globally is pretty good.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
Agreed. Volkswagen really needs more product offerings here. Unfortunately, they seem to be headed to a place where we JUST are going to get Americanized stuff for us. Atlas, anyone? :rolleyes:

Sad, because their product portfolio globally is pretty good.
VWOA always screws up product offerings in the US. It think it's fruitless to ask for better from them at this point, they're in a position where they need to retrench and consider their viability. Anyone who thinks governments are done milking VW for $$ is not paying enough attention.

Sad really, their future offerings were just getting nice until this emissions deal happened.

At this point I just want to two tdi's I have to last until I'm not driving anymore, but that might be a lot to ask for in all honesty.

Steve
 
Top