CP3 Pump Install Experiments.**Big Picts**

Fuel Metering Control Valve.

N2UADTDI said:

2Micron - does the fuel metering valve work the same way on both pumps?

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Good question N2ADTDI,
This was one of the earliest discoveries in the experiment. Yes, they function the same.
These solenoids recieve 12 volts, then they are negatively triggered, via PWM signal from ECM. Operating frequency is around 180Hz, with the duty cycle ranging from 5% to 40%.
De-energized = Low fuel volume into pump.
Energized = High fuel volume into pump.
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The CP3 and CP4.1 pump's FMC valves are quite different in physical size. Fortunately, the coils have the same resistance.
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TDIMiester - yes, you are correct. The graph simply shows the relationship between "specified" and "actual" pressure in the rail. VCDS sample rate is not nearly fast enough to measure the pressure wave fluctuations. PM me if you are interested in the "Full" VCDS data, in excel. (if any one knows how to post Excel here, please chime in!)
VeeDubTdi and storx, thanks for the graph comments. Tyrel developed the graph and we should all thank VW for making the ECM react fast enough to vary the PWM signals to maintain the required flow and pressure rates.
All the best,

The actual rail pressure will almost never meet command, all you are checking for is that they are within ~10bar. The ECM is recalculating fuelling every 5ms, while the HPFP calculation is not being updated any faster than 20ms and has much more inherent lag.

I took some datalogs of a similar Bosch CR fuel system running up to 2000bar and the difference between rail pressure and cmd under transient conditions is roughly 150bar. On a dyno under steady state conditions the rail pressure can get within 10 or 20 bar, but that is on a dyno, not real world conditions. The only time the rail pressure will stabilize is at idle or cruise. It will spend most of its time in city driving with the rail pressure always chasing cmd by atleast 75-100 bar and there are no issues. The ECM knows what the current rail pressure is and calculates the necessary pulse width to inject the required fuel to supply the commanded torque. The rail pressure really doesn't need to be finely controlled. At low load reducing rail pressure can reduce emissions and at high load a high rail pressure allows the required fuel to be injected into the optimum injection window.

Andrew. Good thread and nice progress. As you know I just got back from a trip and am heavy back into projects at the mine this week so I need a bit of time to get up to speed on progress.
Are the covers I made some cuts in going to work for you or do you really need fresh ones?

Welcome back TDIsyncro!!

TDIsyncro said:

Andrew. Good thread and nice progress. As you know I just got back from a trip and am heavy back into projects at the mine this week so I need a bit of time to get up to speed on progress.
Are the covers I made some cuts in going to work for you or do you really need fresh ones?

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. Welcome back TDIsyncro, hope your trip was very good!! Any TDi's in your travels? We have all been awaiting your return to chime in on this project.
Folks, TDIsyncro was the inspiration for this project and has helped very much along the way. Critical measurements and special parts were generously provided by him.
Right now, timing covers would be very helpful. Even the inside one you cut up. I will use a combination of stock cut up ones and a newly fabricated cover for the new timing belt route. I will certainly exchange my OEM, uncut covers back to you, early in the new year. (Or modify and send suitable covers for your engine!!)
Thanks for chiming in, eager to hear about your trip and new developments on your projects!
All the best,

fascinating!!

Sub'd

2micron said:

. Welcome back TDIsyncro, hope your trip was very good!! Any TDi's in your travels? We have all been awaiting your return to chime in on this project.
Folks, TDIsyncro was the inspiration for this project and has helped very much along the way. Critical measurements and special parts were generously provided by him.
Right now, timing covers would be very helpful. Even the inside one you cut up. I will use a combination of stock cut up ones and a newly fabricated cover for the new timing belt route. I will certainly exchange my OEM, uncut covers back to you, early in the new year. (Or modify and send suitable covers for your engine!!)
Thanks for chiming in, eager to hear about your trip and new developments on your projects!
All the best,

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As a true diesel enthusiast I spent some time photographing the variety of diesel cars and truck in Thailand that we do not have available to us in North America. Most people do not know this but tuning diesel pickups is a very big thing in Thailand. I would venture that 1/3 of all trucks are straight pipe and ½ all trucks have custom tunes. And many have custom turbos and intercoolers. I think my favorite was the Chevrolet Colorado Crew cab 3.0 Duramax RWD. It is a very low sitting truck with a performance stance and some of them seem to be moving pretty quick. Mitsubishi and Isuzu also have a couple really neat looking trucks.

I think we can work something out with the covers.

TDIsyncro said:

As a true diesel enthusiast I spent some time photographing the variety of diesel cars and truck in Thailand that we do not have available to us in North America. Most people do not know this but tuning diesel pickups is a very big thing in Thailand. I would venture that 1/3 of all trucks are straight pipe and ½ all trucks have custom tunes. And many have custom turbos and intercoolers. I think my favorite was the Chevrolet Colorado Crew cab 3.0 Duramax RWD. It is a very low sitting truck with a performance stance and some of them seem to be moving pretty quick. Mitsubishi and Isuzu also have a couple really neat looking trucks.

I think we can work something out with the covers.

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Pic of truck?

engineered2win said:

I took some datalogs of a similar Bosch CR fuel system running up to 2000bar and the difference between rail pressure and cmd under transient conditions is roughly 150bar. On a dyno under steady state conditions the rail pressure can get within 10 or 20 bar, but that is on a dyno, not real world conditions. The only time the rail pressure will stabilize is at idle or cruise. It will spend most of its time in city driving with the rail pressure always chasing cmd by atleast 75-100 bar and there are no issues. The ECM knows what the current rail pressure is and calculates the necessary pulse width to inject the required fuel to supply the commanded torque. The rail pressure really doesn't need to be finely controlled. At low load reducing rail pressure can reduce emissions and at high load a high rail pressure allows the required fuel to be injected into the optimum injection window.

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. Thanks for the information, engineered2win, you must have access to some very nice equipment and data monitoring. Your experience is appreciated and helpful.
Apologies everyone, no major updates to report, but I can assure anyone interested in this project that it is still moving forward and no problems or issues have come up to stop progress.
The recent increase in reported fuel system failures in our Common Rail cars is very unfortunate and bothersome to all. When this project was started, failures seemed to be reported less often and only on the early year cars. With the growth of this site, it seems we are seeing a more accurate picture of failures.
Too bad as our cars are otherwise fantastic.
.
All the more reasons to look at other pump options.
TDIsyncro and I will be sharing some timing covers soon for modifications and I will certainly update the next phase of the project.
Thanks and all the best,

2micron said:

. Thanks for the information, engineered2win, you must have access to some very nice equipment and data monitoring. Your experience is appreciated and helpful.
Apologies everyone, no major updates to report, but I can assure anyone interested in this project that it is still moving forward and no problems or issues have come up to stop progress.
The recent increase in reported fuel system failures in our Common Rail cars is very unfortunate and bothersome to all. When this project was started, failures seemed to be reported less often and only on the early year cars. With the growth of this site, it seems we are seeing a more accurate picture of failures.
Too bad as our cars are otherwise fantastic.
.
All the more reasons to look at other pump options.
TDIsyncro and I will be sharing some timing covers soon for modifications and I will certainly update the next phase of the project.
Thanks and all the best,

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stupid question but here goes....if the new pump runs off an auxilliary belt and not the T belt....where in the engine compartment does that new contraption fit ? Is there room??
I hugely admire what you are doing....hope to see some conclusion to this one day and a +ve outcome from a fellow Canadian.

tdi90hp said:

stupid question but here goes....if the new pump runs off an auxilliary belt and not the T belt....where in the engine compartment does that new contraption fit ? Is there room??
I hugely admire what you are doing....hope to see some conclusion to this one day and a +ve outcome from a fellow Canadian.

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No , not at all a stupid question!! The new pump fits in the same location as the original pump, slightly higher and farther forward. The drive pulley is closer to the passenger inner fender, by one belt width, plus clearances. The long, elaborate routing of the original timing belt is now simplified, very similar to the BEW and BRM (PD) engines. The coolant line to the reservoir bottle is about the only item to be relocated, which is quite simple.
Thanks for asking and I will certainly update with pictures, early in the New Year!!
All the best,

Very curious about this - I might actually consider a CR VW if you are successful.

Cool fab work, and I love the proof of concept life-support fuel supply experiment.

thats great Idea but im wondering I've had my car for 6 months and it has 22k km on it so far just wondering how many times should i be emptying my inter-cooler? every oil change or every year.

how many kilometers do you wait before emptying it out?

PS: might want to make a bracket with a lock pin just in-case it decides to open ex: reversing from a bush or something.

Awesome thread. Thanks for the hard work!

CNDTDI said:

thats great Idea but im wondering I've had my car for 6 months and it has 22k km on it so far just wondering how many times should i be emptying my inter-cooler? every oil change or every year.

how many kilometers do you wait before emptying it out?

PS: might want to make a bracket with a lock pin just in-case it decides to open ex: reversing from a bush or something.

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Innercooler icying seems to depend on weather conditions and also seem to be worse when weather conditions are below freezing at night and then warm up to above freezing during the day. Freeze/thaw type weather. If you are having these weather conditions I would check it more frequently to monitor just how much water might be forming.

dweisel said:

Innercooler icying seems to depend on weather conditions and also seem to be worse when weather conditions are below freezing at night and then warm up to above freezing during the day. Freeze/thaw type weather. If you are having these weather conditions I would check it more frequently to monitor just how much water might be forming.

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. Yes, the water should be drained frequently. I drain mine manually everyday, or the electric version does it automatically, every time you lock the doors.
Let's move Intercooler interest over to here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4028162&postcount=3227.
Thanks!!
All the best!!

This thread is way over my head but ill subscribe so I can monitor the progress! Good job so far!

Crank1 said:

This thread is way over my head but ill subscribe so I can monitor the progress! Good job so far!

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Thanks Crank1, progress has not stooped, just slowed to a crawl. Lately, I started to experiment with an adapter to keep the original pump from sending it's internals into the entire fuel system, here is a link:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4030853&postcount=18.
I promise to get back, full swing on the CP3 project, after Christmas!!
Thanks,
All the best!!

2micron said:

Thanks Crank1, progress has not stooped, just slowed to a crawl. Lately, I started to experiment with an adapter to keep the original pump from sending it's internals into the entire fuel system, here is a link:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4030853&postcount=18.
I promise to get back, full swing on the CP3 project, after Christmas!!
Thanks,
All the best!!

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Andrew, once you get production started. Your adapter needs a special place on this forum to promote it. It truely is and will be a tremedous acheivement towards making the CR fuel system somewhat less worry free by mitigating damage to the entire fuel system. It will mean no more entire fuel systems replacements. Huge dollar savigns to owners with failures.

All CR owner's need to give you a hug and a salute for solving a problem that has the potential to totally ruin the service life of the CR VW.

Greatest respects for your hard work and perseverance.
dweisel

^ This is an awesome development. Isolating pump failure to the HPFP reduces a major failure to a moderate annoyance. Best wishes for your projects.

2Micron, you're moderately famous:

http://jalopnik.com/5968228/are-fuel-pump-failures-sidelining-volkswagens-diesel-engines

Hello Andrew tried to message you back but your inbox was full, let me know when its emptied again.

hey bud, i was looking over some of your new pics.. what are you doing when you adjusted the pressure from 62psi to 80psi.. ? whats the benefits of this?

storx said:

hey bud, i was looking over some of your new pics.. what are you doing when you adjusted the pressure from 62psi to 80psi.. ? whats the benefits of this?

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Hello Storx, I experimented with increasing the casing pressure on a stock CP4.1 VW HPFP pump, in an attempt to help solve a low rail pressure cut out problem with one of our "Extreme" horsepower members, at high RPM.
We tried increasing the flow and pressure the Stock fuel system, by modifying the cascade or overflow valve, within the HPFP.
The results were only marginally successful, increasing the cut out RPM by only a few hundred. The benefit learned was that the pump and injector bleed off lines will easily survive to 80psi.
Here's a few pictures.
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Stock cascade valve internals:
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(First ever) Modified, adjustable cascade valve:

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.

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Storx, If you increased the flow and pressure with an aftermarket boost pump, the stock cascade or overflow valve will still maintain 62 psi, within the HPFP casing. This mod will give you more pressure to feed the HPFP at higher RPM, but if you are not cutting out yet at high RPM, the only benefit to this will be assurance that you are maintaining extra pressure into the delicate HPFP.
.
Let's get back to the CP3 project!!
It's not dead, I've just focused more on the fuel protection kits for the stock pump.
I have been quietly experimenting with a smaller version of the CP3 pumps.
These smaller body pumps are identical to the bigger Cummins and Duramax brothers, except miniature. They are found on Jeep CRD's, European
Cars, vans and equipment.

The exciting news is the size allows almost bolt on in place of the stock CP4.1.
This will be the way to go, "Pushing the limits" of our motors.
Mini CP3:
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Mini CP3, in stock location on CJAA bracket and alternator:
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Timing Sprocket:
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Thanks Storx!!
You are one that is willing to "Push the Limits"
All the best,
Andrew

Wow, a mini CP3! That'd be awesome if you could devise an elegant way to integrate this pump as a replacement to the CP4.1. If you're able to create a turn-key solution, I along with many others here would be throwing money at you.

Keep up the good work!

Edit: Is that the CP3A pump?

A radial 3-piston pump, with a medium-pressure gear-type fuel lift-pump attached to the back, is used as the high-pressure pump for common-rail fuel pressure generation - in this system it is capable of pressures between 300-1600 bar (4351-23206 psia) Note: 1Bar = 1 atmosphere, or 14.73psia
A spring-loaded cascade overflow valve regulates internal housing pressure
Regulated internal housing pressure is oem-specific
The pump shaft is driven by the timing belt at 2/3 ratio to the crankshaft.
Fuel pressure is generated independently of the injection process.
A fuel quantity solenoid valve regulates injection pressure
The pump is lubricated by the pumped Diesel fuel and is not responsible for fuel injection timing.
The CP3 and drive gear is indexed such that it can be timed to coordinate pumping pulses with injection events **

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Watching this one...

Sent from my Bosch Motronic ECM via VCDS Version 1.9LVE

I was curious...have you been monitoring the aux pump output into the hpfp?... my car when I was on stage 2 tune on stock turbo showed fuel pressure drop under WOT conditions...I have a aftermarket pump that is inline to the stock aux pump to keep pressure solid....so far Mark Malone has told me I'm they only commonrail making high power not effected by fuel cut in top of rpms.... I have recently broke 300whp without fuel issues..yet

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 4

in for more updates

Keep up the great work gentlemen.