1z injection timing WAY too advanced

Seems like nothing can go smooth on this car LOL

Im trying to time the injection pump on my 1z since I got new injectors. Initially when I got the car up to temp and took a look at the graph it said timing was to advanced to plot. So I kept loosening the pump bolts and pulling it away from the engine (to retard timing) and it still says its too advanced on the graph. Ive adjusted it so much that at idle the car will stumble and still VCDS is saying the timing is too advanced. Ive also noticed that the IQ has been going up everytime I adjust the pump farther from the engine. Any advice on how to get the pump within timing range?

Ive had the car running with the pump loose trying to get something other than timing too advanced to plot but couldnt.

when i do timing, for just that little time i have the one bolt tight. the one upper bolt.(dont run engine other than making the pump adjustment with pump loose).
another thing, before starting did you check the mechanical timing? this is first step. among the other parts of the timing, make sure both come up TDC, check that the pump is @TDC as well, this is the pin slot. if it fits pump is on right tooth.
another point: if you now loosen the pump, i take off inj lines, rotate pump so its about middle of travel. and yes your right, away from engine is retard, towards engine is pump advance. when you get done rotating a pump, in any event, you have to loosen all 8 connections on inj lines. otherwise you ll find a line, probably near a connection will get a crack.

Sometimes if the timing is off too much you get the opposite message. In your case this doesn't seem likely since it was presumably ok before you worked on the injectors or was it.

Or did you move the pump to? Maybe did the belt?

KLXD said:

Sometimes if the timing is off too much you get the opposite message. In your case this doesn't seem likely since it was presumably ok before you worked on the injectors or was it.

Or did you move the pump to? Maybe did the belt?

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It ran fine just did injectors

iluvmydiesels said:

when i do timing, for just that little time i have the one bolt tight. the one upper bolt.(dont run engine other than making the pump adjustment with pump loose).
another thing, before starting did you check the mechanical timing? this is first step. among the other parts of the timing, make sure both come up TDC, check that the pump is @TDC as well, this is the pin slot. if it fits pump is on right tooth.
another point: if you now loosen the pump, i take off inj lines, rotate pump so its about middle of travel. and yes your right, away from engine is retard, towards engine is pump advance. when you get done rotating a pump, in any event, you have to loosen all 8 connections on inj lines. otherwise you ll find a line, probably near a connection will get a crack.

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As for the actual engine timing there was a yellow dash on the pump gear that lined up with a yellow dash on the belt so im assuming timing is good

for timing the pump(gear) and belt are not a line up mark, there is no mark on a belt to line up timing, at any point. so im wondering if you know timing procedure. 1 you need crank to TDC, cam must be @TDC, here remember crank goes over twice to find #1TDC, the other one (crank rotation)will be the opposite side, in other words #4 will be up. with crank @tdc, & cam @tdc, check pump gear, you should have the timing pin, or tool that fits. i forget the exact deep socket that fits, (9mm?10mm?). the 1st thing id point out is if the crank and cam line up, then if the pump pin fits in. the pump gear has how many holes (5?) you need the timing hole (that pin fits), behind pump gear in inner tin theres a corresponding hole that pin lines up with/in.

Just a shot in left field but I did recently put a tuned ecu in it so could the tune have something to do with it. Im skeptical about this ecu because its giving me a P1466 code for an additive pump but that theres no way my car even has one. So I wonder if its also messing with the readings on VCDS

Couple things:

First, you need to start over back at square one. With the proper static mechanical timing of the belt. The ONLY way to do this is with the cam lock plate installed, the cam sprocket loose, the crank on the TDC mark in the window of the bellhousing, and the pump pin locked in, and that pin being in a neutral (meaning, not binding) position once the belt is tensioned and the tensioner indicator marks line up. Period. There is no shortcutting, no paintmarking, worship to the gods of compression ignition, or any other such nonsense. Do it correctly, or pay someone to do it correctly.

Second, the early TDI engines, because they are based on a design from the Nixon era, have a weak spot in the crank snout that causes them to get beat up along with the crank sprocket. I NEVER do a timing belt on one of these without checking this VERY CRUCIAL component. The only way to check/verify this is (with the belt already off) to remove the crank bolt, pull the crank sprocket off, and check the integrity of its ability to index on to the crankshaft. If there is any rusty dust present, you already know there is a problem. Sometimes, you can get by with a new sprocket and a new bolt (bolt should be replaced regardless) and the crank will be OK. In really bad cases, the crank is trashed so bad it needs to be replaced*.

To help keep this from happening, there is both an upgraded balancer/pulley, and if your engine was not originally so equipped, put the one-way clutch type pulley on the alternator. These two items, along with a good secure sprocket with a new bolt should give the engine a good long life span afterwards. The reason this is an issue when setting the timing is that if the sprocket on the crank is not actually properly indexed to the crank, and it may be moving about as the power pulses happen, the timing will be jumping all over.

When you get all that sorted, and you properly install, tension, and then finally tighten the cam sprocket to the cam, and remove the lock tools, the timing should not be very far off. At most, when done properly, it will just need a little tweak.

Any of these old VE pump TDIs, like the old IDIs, that require the pump be turned to adjust timing, also should afterwards (with the engine off) have all the delivery pipes cracked loose at the back of the pump and retightened. If you do not do this, they can be in a bind, and can crack and start leaking fuel all over the place.

I was able to do many timing belts, starting with the first replacement at 60k miles, on many 1Z/AHU TDIs and never had to do this, because I never had to readjust the timing. If you install the belt correctly, and it has never been previously messed with since leaving the factory, they will typically land spot on with a new belt and no adjustment is necessary.

oilhammer said:

(#1)First, you need to start over back at square one. With the proper static mechanical timing of the belt. The ONLY way to do this is with the cam lock plate installed, the cam sprocket loose, the crank on the TDC mark in the window of the bellhousing, and the pump pin locked in, and that pin being in a neutral (meaning, not binding) position once the belt is tensioned and the tensioner indicator marks line up. Period.
(#2)Sometimes, you can get by with a new sprocket and a new bolt (bolt should be replaced regardless)

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lets start here, #2. the bolt at this point needs to be replaced.
im not the biggest fan of removing crank bolt, it changes the game, if not retorqued then a full 1/4turn correctly, removing it isnt much or any better than not.
#1, when setting the tensioner you will want to, at that time, pull the pump pin. thats just a few of the steps to the timing procedure. there are more to get it correct.

RobbyP said:

I did recently put a tuned ecu in
a P1466 code for an additive pump

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a different ecu can have certain problems, esp a tuned ecu. it may not be as compatible of an ecu, who knows. could be a/the problem.
additive pump? do you mean the code is saying a tuned pump? and you have stock pump in? clear codes for one.

iluvmydiesels said:

a different ecu can have certain problems, esp a tuned ecu. it may not be as compatible of an ecu, who knows. could be a/the problem.
additive pump? do you mean the code is saying a tuned pump? and you have stock pump in? clear codes for one.

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This ECU is a JB code ecu I got from kerma with a tune in it. Code is short to ground for an additive pump. I know for a fact that these tdis never came with an additive pump. Once code is cleared it comes back in about a minute. By stock pump you mean stock IP then yes I do have the stock pump in.

RobbyP said:

Code is short to ground for an additive pump. I know for a fact that these tdis never came with an additive pump.

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ok so your JB code ecu sounds something similar to mine, iirc i have a JY, and have obtained a CY, as an extra, the CY is canada, or it may be cali, cannt remember for sure. havent refreshed my code memory, i suppose theres posts buried in this section somewhere.
so by additive pump your referring to a 'lift pump' or separate fuel pump?, not an injector pump. as far as tracing the code that is a separate topic.
then again you say you have a 1z, i didnt catch what year, my ecu may be a JY, then again i have a '98 ahu.

iluvmydiesels said:

ok so your JB code ecu sounds something similar to mine, iirc i have a JY, and have obtained a CY, as an extra, the CY is canada, or it may be cali, cannt remember for sure. havent refreshed my code memory, i suppose theres posts buried in this section somewhere.
so by additive pump your referring to a 'lift pump' or separate fuel pump?, not an injector pump. as far as tracing the code that is a separate topic.
then again you say you have a 1z, i didnt catch what year, my ecu may be a JY, then again i have a '98 ahu.

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So I bought this car as a swap. Engine is a 96 1z and had a plastic box AB code ecu in it. It ran fine with the AB ecu. This JB is one that kerma recommended for adding a tune because the metal box ecus have an updated MAP sensor. As for the code. P1466 is referring to a DEF additive pump apparently. Something that I know wasnt on a 1z lol. Heres a link I found with someone having a code issue kind of like mine.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=174125

RobbyP said:

As for the actual engine timing there was a yellow dash on the pump gear that lined up with a yellow dash on the belt so im assuming timing is good

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Re-transmitting the message from above that this is probably an erroneous assumption, and also very probably related to your issues.

There are no factory paint marks for timing... it's done with physical jigs as detailed by Oilhammer above. Whoever put the paint marks there was hoping for the best, perhaps when they did the timing belt. Simply "putting things back the way you found them" can lead to all kinds of wild goose chases...cam/crank/pump alignment is a precision sport.

IMHO, best bet at this point: pull the timing belt and start from scratch... set the cam/crank/IP timing perfectly, using the alignment jigs, and then see if that gets your timing back into the window that VCDS will let you read.

Vince Waldon said:

There are no factory paint marks for timing...
Whoever put the paint marks there was hoping for the best, perhaps when they did the timing belt. Simply "putting things back the way you found them"

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also known as, as we all know, 'hillbilly' tuning. or as vince refers to 'chasing gooses'.

As for what oil hammer was saying about never having to adjust pump timing if the best was installed correctly. Its odd after reading that then kerma is telling me to set timing after I installed my new injectors. Thats what got me into this mess. Can ran great before adjusting timing and still runs fine. Heres another question, since the car is running fine should I just adjust the IQ like kerma said also? Because this pump timing issue isnt a huge deal to me at the moment because the car is running fine.

RobbyP said:

As for what oil hammer was saying about never having to adjust pump timing if the best was installed correctly.

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i dont think that statement is the case, no one who knows to time (these cars)will feel, if you put the belt on correctly, the pump will not have to be adjusted. the pump being adjusted with VCDS is the last step of timing procedure. is belt goes on correct, there are a few more steps, --when- you are ready you start up car, warm her up, im sure most by driving, take back to your garage, and hook up VCDS, adjust pump, and etc, and such.

it may be a good thing you checked timing. because something is funky, like PU, it smells. the only thing i have to point out is, you feel the timing belt was set up with marks on pump gear and belt, not being specific as whether other marks were/are on belt and other gears, for timing.

Not to speak for him but I understood him to say adjustment might not be required after a timing belt change. Different situation for yours.

Sounds like a mark and pray job may have been done on yours. Probably but not necessarily; some guys make the marks as a double check.

In your case, since you didn't touch the belt and the timing was OK before the injector change I'd be looking what you've done.

You put in a new ECU. Did you check the timing after that?

KLXD said:

the timing was OK before the injector change

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My understanding of the sequence of events is that the timing was only measured after installation of new nozzles, at the request of the nozzle vendor. So, could have been off the charts all along.

Perhaps the OP can confirm for us.

RobbyP said:

Heres another question, since the car is running fine should I just adjust the IQ like kerma said also? Because this pump timing issue isnt a huge deal to me at the moment because the car is running fine.

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The car can "run fine" with the timing out of spec, but will be sacrificing some combination of power, emissions, and fuel economy.

I personally wouldn't attempt any other adjustments, including IQ, until I figured out what was wrong with the timing. If you start playing with IQ and things go sideways you'll be left guessing if it's your old friend the strange timing coming back to bite you.

Vince Waldon said:

My understanding of the sequence of events is that the timing was only measured after installation of new nozzles, at the request of the nozzle vendor. So, could have been off the charts all along.

Perhaps the OP can confirm for us.



The car can "run fine" with the timing out of spec, but will be sacrificing some combination of power, emissions, and fuel economy.

I personally wouldn't attempt any other adjustments, including IQ, until I figured out what was wrong with the timing. If you start playing with IQ and things go sideways you'll be left guessing if it's your old friend the strange timing coming back to bite you.

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Youre right, never checked timing until kerma told me too. Tbh this is the first diesel Ive actually owned and gotten deep into. Thats why I was skeptical about a timing issue because I have alot more experiance in gas engine. Like with a gasser if timing is off by one tooth the whole car can be out of wack amd throw tons of codes for certian cars. Could timing be off also explain why if my car sits for the night and start it up in the morning I have tons of white smoke and a choppy idle for the first few minutes? Or would that be too much fuel going into the cylinders.

your advance on your pump, as current may be a good reason for white smoke.

so lets get one thing, you put in new injectors, its dawning on me now, these are not stock injectors, your implying these are kerma products.

another thing, changing the IQ is an advanced process, not just for someone to hook up a computer(VCDS) and play with. for another thing seems you lack certain experience as far as this car, and/or diesels.

iluvmydiesels said:

your advance on your pump, as current may be a good reason for white smoke.
so lets get one thing, you put in new injectors, its dawning on me now, these are not stock injectors, your implying these are kerma products.
another thing, changing the IQ is an advanced process, not just for someone to hook up a computer(VCDS) and play with. for another thing seems you lack certain experience as far as this car, and/or diesels.

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Yes, they are rebuilt injectors with bigger nozzles. I know Im more than capable of doing these things, this is my first time really digging this deep into a car like this.. From what I understand now ill have to redo the timing, check IP timing, then adjust IQ correct?

EDIT: iluvmydiesels I see youre from philly. Seeing that im only about 30-40min away. So I could drive the car up to you or something like that to get your input on it. Would be alot easier than over text like this

Ok, things are clearer now. Timing was not checked prior to new injector install.

I'm going back to my original thought. Timing is maybe retarded and reported as advanced. I've seen it happen and seen it discussed here.

I've seen late timing result in smoke at start; maybe early timing will cause it also.

Easiest thing for you to do is to try advancing it. Nothing to loose.

BUT. Since you don't know what the situation was before you installed the injectors and you have suspicious marks on the belt you should probably follows oilhammer's advice.
Cheap insurance. If they did a mark and pray what other shortcuts were taken?

That makes alot of sense, since when i was adjusting the pump the more advanced it was the better it actually ran. After I do glow plugs and new glow plug harness Ill get a timing kit and start with that. I guess I can advance the pump alittle more than I set it as a temp fix before I redo the timing.

KLXD said:

Since you don't know what the situation was before you installed the injectors and you have suspicious marks on the belt you should probably follows oilhammer's advice.

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gee thanks for the realization, didnt i suggest it first, oil just added (some of the)steps to do the job. there are steps before and after that.

Huh?

I just skimmed your posts, I find them difficult to follow but you seemed to be telling him how to adjust timing.

Oil was advising him to redo it from the beginning and check the crank end.

I'm sorry, no slight intended.

Threads like this give me a headache...

Ok to clear things up. Today I adjusted my pump as advanced as I could andit seems thats where the car runs the best. So whoever said that timing so retarded that VCDS says its advanced is looking that their right. So it maybe advancing the pump so much it counter acts the retard timing? Anyway Im leaving car as is until I get a new timing kit and after its re-timed I will update you guys on this.

oilhammer said:

Threads like this give me a headache...

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Ditto...

As recommended by OH a long ways back, start over completely with timing belt install / tension procedure.

If you don't want to deal with the crank sprocket issue then don' do it, but it's good practice to check the crank snout, replace the crank oil seal and replace the crank sprocket bolt. I have done the timing belt install process without doing these things though.

The issue right now is you're just talking around the problem. Consult the Bentley for the timing procedure and go from there. Once you get the belt installed properly then you can check and fine tune with VCDS.

It's not that big of a deal to do this belt, it's one of the simplest timing belt procedures to follow.

If your new injectors are causing a timing issue it will show up once you've completed the timing belt tensioning procedure.

Steve