If there is a Buyback..What would it take for you get out of your TDI?

RGFanta · Sep 23, 2015

Here's an interesting article that estimates the cost to fix.

The parts alone are $2500 and the labor is "in the dozens of hours" at $100/hour. Generously assume 2 days of labor, and you get $1600. For three days, it's $2400.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/heres-might-cost-fix-vw-car/

So you're between $4100 and $4900 in costs, plus you now have a smaller fuel tank.

Now owners will need to be compensated for the reduced resale and functionality. [Lawsuits will ensure that this happens.]

I think that you're at $8-$10k per car to retrofit.

[Edit: That article also says that even the Passats that are fitted with the SCR systems did not pass the emissions tests. That is very bad, but possibly could be fixed by tuning the ECR software more towards lower emissions.]

The costs might be lower if you bought the cars back from consumers, retrofit them in a cheaper labor market, and sold them off in another market.

I think a buyback is coming.

bassman631 · Sep 23, 2015

I also think a buyback is coming IMHO. I personally have been looking to get into a passat since the birth of my 1st child and #2 on the way. Might work out for the best.

amstel78 · Sep 23, 2015

bizzle said:
If you've already tampered with emissions equipment I don't think you should be illegible for anything.

I took it out because it failed prematurely and VW didn't want to pony up the repair/replacement costs. I paid out of pocket to make my car reliable when it should have been from the start. So yeah, I think I'm entitled to something.

BTW, the CEO of VW resigned today. Done and done.

undertaker · Sep 23, 2015

h'mm since I already wanted out of my 2010 cup edition with 66k miles....(rides like crap most likely needs struts, constant CEL, I blow about 4 tires a year (always have 2 on standby in the basement) leaking tranny case, etc.)

I'm in the market for a new truck for the wife, and I'm not commuting 100 miles roud trip for work more like 20, so I use my blown 2500 suburban most of the time these days.

Do I just trade the thing in now, or wait and see if they'll give me a ton of money.

I want a buy back run to the hills option not any sort of incentive to get stuck with another VW. I was done with them before dieselgate.

any concrete time frames for VW to come out with a resolution to this situation?

RGFanta · Sep 23, 2015

Undertaker, I say that you wait.

This is a big scandal and they will want to try to do something big to correct their reputation.

Your Kelley Blue Book is $13271 according to this page:
http://www.kbb.com/volkswagen/jetta/2010-volkswagen-jetta/tdi-sportwagen-sport-wagon-4d/?intent=buy-used&vehicleid=261648&category=wagon

Option #1) Find out what VW will offer you for a trade-in, and do a car swap. If VW offers you 200% of KBB (as some are suggesting), that's roughly $26.5k worth of a NEW VW. You go down the road and find the dealer of a car that you like. You ask him how much he would give you for the NEW VW if you drove it off the VW lot and sold it to him immediately. Let's say he offers you $23k. You've just made $10k on the swap.

Option 2) You take a cash compensation if they offer that and let them upgrade the car, then sell it.

Option 3) You let them buy it back from you at (my guess) 110-150% of KBB if they offer that.

I think that you come out ahead in one of these scenarios. This is what I'll be looking for when they offer terms.

You could also join the class action lawsuit and get compensation from that. I'm not going to do that until I know what VW is going to offer.

The suggested timeframe that I've seen for resolving this is one year. I think that the options will become clear quite soon - maybe in 1-3 months.

undertaker · Sep 23, 2015

RGFanta said:
Undertaker, I say that you wait.

This is a big scandal and they will want to try to do something big to correct their reputation.

Your Kelley Blue Book is $13271 according to this page:
http://www.kbb.com/volkswagen/jetta...tent=buy-used&vehicleid=261648&category=wagon

Option #1) Find out what VW will offer you for a trade-in, and do a car swap. If VW offers you 200% of KBB (as some are suggesting), that's roughly $26.5k worth of a NEW VW. You go down the road and find the dealer of a car that you like. You ask him how much he would give you for the NEW VW if you drove it off the VW lot and sold it to him immediately. Let's say he offers you $23k. You've just made $10k on the swap.

Option 2) You take a cash payment from VW if they offer that, let them upgrade the car, then sell it.

pretty much how I was thinking.....just sucks I'm literally days away from picking up a new denali or escalade leftover for the old lady, guess she'll just have to wait till this crap settles

lawnarjax · Sep 23, 2015

Right now my 2010 JSW pays me 50 cents per mile to drive it. I'm averaging 1000+ dollars a month net . So I would take no less than 12k for mine. I would immediately reinvest that in a bmw diesel wagon. But honestly I don't care about this crap.

RGFanta · Sep 23, 2015

Undertaker, VW better start floating a plan to solve this soon if they want to sell any cars again.

They already have a big inventory of new diesel cars (with urea injection that I presume could meet EPA standards if programmed to do so) on lots in the US and Canada that they can't sell until they square things with the EPA. That's costing them lots of $$$.

RGFanta · Sep 23, 2015

Update to the above numbers as to how big this can go.

My figures above are low.

Take BP as an example. They had a *gross* profit of $40-$60B dollars in recent years, yet paid $42.2B in the oil spill case.

VW's gross profit in 2014 was Euro12.7B or about $14.2B dollars. I think that the overall settlement runs in the $15-20B range. I bet it costs $8-10B in the US and the rest in Europe and South Korea.

Europe obviously has a *LOT* more diesels on the road that we do, but the obvious catch is that they don't restrict NOx like we do, hence the payout there may be lower than here where they blatantly violated the law.

amstel78 · Sep 23, 2015

turbobrick240 said:
Understandable. I hope you're not angry about the typically better than epa ratings fuel efficiency.

LOL. I hope astroboy doesn't have kids...

viking427 · Sep 23, 2015

VW has known about the WVU study and EPA's awareness of the issue since May of last year. Its only news for us since the EPA's Sept. 18th public filing. I have to believe VW's already (quietly) done their internal risk assessments, cost analysis and legal reviews in anticipation of the eventual fallout when the filing was submitted and it went public. Yes they provided weak explanations to EPA during this time to buy time, but they had to know this was eventually coming as early as last summer. My guess is, they already know how they're going to handle this and they're playing out their hand in regards to timing, political moves (Winterkorn exodus) and public responses. The #1 automotive company in the world doesn't get to the top being strictly reactionary.

ARDailey · Sep 23, 2015

viking427 said:
VW has known about the WVU study and EPA's awareness of the issue since May of last year. Its only news for us since the EPA's Sept. 18th public filing. I have to believe VW's already (quietly) done their internal risk assessments, cost analysis and legal reviews in anticipation of the eventual fallout when the filing was submitted and it went public. Yes they provided weak explanations to EPA during this time to buy time, but they had to know this was eventually coming as early as last summer. My guess is, they already know how they're going to handle this and they're playing out their hand in regards to timing, political moves (Winterkorn exodus) and public responses. The #1 automotive company in the world doesn't get to the top being strictly reactionary.

This is the most succinct evaluation of DieselGate I have read.
Harumph!!

Philpug · Sep 23, 2015

My trade in is $8k, retail is $11K. Right now I don't have any payments and of course don't want any. Say it is 150-200% over values, we are still talking $15-16K. To replace it with something comparable...I would still have to finance almost the same amount. But I do NOT want another VW. Would a Guaranteed Buy Back be only for another VW? If so I doubt I would do it. Even up for a new one. My Dealer is also has a Subaru franchise, I would see how much it would cost me to get an Outback instead.

seth1065 · Sep 23, 2015

My guess is if VW did a buyback type deal it would really want the enhanced trade in feature, say you car is worth 8K , they buy if from you for 9K , your money buy what you want or you can trade your car in to VW and put it towards another VW , you get 15K but you gotta buy a VW which helps them with inventory and keeping the plants running and hopefully keeps you as a customer moving forward. In your case VW gives you 9K and you get into a outback your still having to lay out a lot of cash to make it into the outback, only you can decide if it is worth it.

Philpug said:
My trade in is $8k, retail is $11K. Right now I don't have any payments and of course don't want any. Say it is 150-200% over values, we are still talking $15-16K. To replace it with something comparable...I would still have to finance almost the same amount. But I do NOT want another VW. Would a Guaranteed Buy Back be only for another VW? If so I doubt I would do it. Even up for a new one. My Dealer is also has a Subaru franchise, I would see how much it would cost me to get an Outback instead.

bizzle · Sep 23, 2015

amstel78 said:
I took it out because it failed prematurely and VW didn't want to pony up the repair/replacement costs. I paid out of pocket to make my car reliable when it should have been from the start. So yeah, I think I'm entitled to something.

BTW, the CEO of VW resigned today. Done and done.

It doesn't matter what your reasoning is. In order to claim damages from someone, in US civil law anyway, you have to demonstrate harm. If you've tampered with the emissions system then you can't argue VW's shenanigans have impacted you and caused damages. You can't sue or demand compensation for a theoretical harm; if you cared about the pollutants spewing from your car you would have replaced the DPF rather than removing it completely.

Those are the legalities of it.

The ethics of it, this is the part that is my personal opinion, is that anyone who has willfully tampered with their emissions system is simply trying to cash in on an issue that doesn't impact them and they obviously didn't care about. If you've purchased a tune that willfully altered the emissions of your vehicle, and/or installed equipment in contradiction to federal law, and you did this to increase mpg and/or reduce wear and tear on the vehicle, at the expense of increased pollution, I don't understand how you personally justify demanding VW compensate you for doing the same thing.

Similarly, if you have a custom tune and/or custom equipment, and never intend on receiving an ECU update or increased emissions controls on your vehicle, then it's difficult to understand why you think you'd be entitled to any benefits that are created for those of us impacted by VW's remediation of the issue.

undertaker · Sep 23, 2015

bizzle said:
It doesn't matter what your reasoning is. In order to claim damages from someone, in US civil law anyway, you have to demonstrate harm. If you've tampered with the emissions system then you can't argue VW's shenanigans have impacted you and caused damages. You can't sue or demand compensation for a theoretical harm; if you cared about the pollutants spewing from your car you would have replaced the DPF rather than removing it completely.

Those are the legalities of it.

The ethics of it, this is the part that is my personal opinion, is that anyone who has willfully tampered with their emissions system is simply trying to cash in on an issue that doesn't impact them and they obviously didn't care about. If you've purchased a tune that willfully altered the emissions of your vehicle, and/or installed equipment in contradiction to federal law, and you did this to increase mpg and/or reduce wear and tear on the vehicle, at the expense of increased pollution, I don't understand how you personally justify demanding VW compensate you for doing the same thing.

Similarly, if you have a custom tune and/or custom equipment, and never intend on receiving an ECU update or increased emissions controls on your vehicle, then it's difficult to understand why you think you'd be entitled to any benefits that are created for those of us impacted by VW's remediation of the issue.

with the 4th round of major recalls you don't think vehicle price will suffer because of their unilateral screwup? Friends who know nothing of cars have been calling and texting me saying oh boy, your car is junk. Resale value/desirability of all TDI's will reflect this at a minimum.

bizzle · Sep 23, 2015

undertaker said:
with the 4th round of major recalls you don't think vehicle price will suffer because of their unilateral screwup? Friends who know nothing of cars have been calling and texting me saying oh boy, your car is junk. Resale value/desirability of all TDI's will reflect this at a minimum.

Let's get real here: people deliberately circumventing emissions equipment aren't planning on selling their cars. In fact, most states they *can't* sell their cars.

As a matter of law one can not sue for hypothetical damages.

I've already stated my personal opinion that it's ridiculous for anyone to claim they're entitled to compensation about an issue they clearly didn't care about anyway.

As far as the value of our vehicles, KBB has never been accurate regarding our or any niche vehicle and people teasing you when they had no intention of buying a TDI is not an accurate barometer of our vehicles' values.

av8or · Sep 23, 2015

bizzle said:
The ethics of it, this is the part that is my personal opinion, is that anyone who has willfully tampered with their emissions system is simply trying to cash in on an issue that doesn't impact them and they obviously didn't care about. If you've purchased a tune that willfully altered the emissions of your vehicle, and/or installed equipment in contradiction to federal law, and you did this to increase mpg and/or reduce wear and tear on the vehicle, at the expense of increased pollution, I don't understand how you personally justify demanding VW compensate you for doing the same thing.
Similarly, if you have a custom tune and/or custom equipment, and never intend on receiving an ECU update or increased emissions controls on your vehicle, then it's difficult to understand why you think you'd be entitled to any benefits that are created for those of us impacted by VW's remediation of the issue.

Agree. Well done bizzle.

turbobrick240 · Sep 23, 2015

I'm sure vw justified the testing switch by the fact that the cars increased fuel efficiency is far more beneficial to the environment than the additional NOx is harmful. Have to laugh at all the folks talking sue, sue, sue. Seems to be their answer for everything.

JBell · Sep 23, 2015

Buybacks work off of the purchase price of the car. A "per mile" charge is deducted from the purchase price. Everyone's results will vary based off of their odometer.

tjsadler · Sep 23, 2015

Philth said:
Buybacks work off of the purchase price of the car. A "per mile" charge is deducted from the purchase price. Everyone's results will vary based off of their odometer.

I'm thinking that may or may not apply in this case. In California, for instance, the deduction (in Lemon Law cases) is calculated based on the mileage when the defect first occurs. So if something was defective after 10,000 miles but the mileage at time of buyback is 50,000 miles only the first 10,000 miles are deducted for "usage". This defect was from the factory so the mileage was 0000.0

Dans4 · Sep 23, 2015

Does any one know what the standards are for diesel cars ( numbers) how does this compare to Gas SUVs / Trucks?

I do understand the problem is NOx, to fix NOx you add NH3 (ammonia) to the exhaust stream

I just purchased a JSW a few weeks ago, wish i waited to get a better deal

VeeDubTDI · Sep 23, 2015

Dans4 said:
Does any one know what the standards are for diesel cars ( numbers) how does this compare to Gas SUVs / Trucks?

I do understand the problem is NOx, to fix NOx you add NH3 (ammonia) to the exhaust stream

I just purchased a JSW a few weeks ago, wish i waited to get a better deal

Does this help? The vehicles in question were certified to Tier 2 Bin 5.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/#1

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/weights.htm

VeeDubTDI · Sep 23, 2015

Dans4 said:
Does any one know what the standards are for diesel cars ( numbers) how does this compare to Gas SUVs / Trucks?

I do understand the problem is NOx, to fix NOx you add NH3 (ammonia) to the exhaust stream

I just purchased a JSW a few weeks ago, wish i waited to get a better deal

Also for comparison, see this post by bhtooefr: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4894927&postcount=2573

Dans4 · Sep 23, 2015

VeeDubTDI said:
Also for comparison, see this post by bhtooefr: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4894927&postcount=2573

Looks like VW did not want to add ammonia injection.

Do the 2015s(mk7) not pass the standards?

amstel78 · Sep 23, 2015

bizzle said:
It doesn't matter what your reasoning is. In order to claim damages from someone, in US civil law anyway, you have to demonstrate harm. If you've tampered with the emissions system then you can't argue VW's shenanigans have impacted you and caused damages. You can't sue or demand compensation for a theoretical harm; if you cared about the pollutants spewing from your car you would have replaced the DPF rather than removing it completely.

Those are the legalities of it.

The ethics of it, this is the part that is my personal opinion, is that anyone who has willfully tampered with their emissions system is simply trying to cash in on an issue that doesn't impact them and they obviously didn't care about. If you've purchased a tune that willfully altered the emissions of your vehicle, and/or installed equipment in contradiction to federal law, and you did this to increase mpg and/or reduce wear and tear on the vehicle, at the expense of increased pollution, I don't understand how you personally justify demanding VW compensate you for doing the same thing.

Similarly, if you have a custom tune and/or custom equipment, and never intend on receiving an ECU update or increased emissions controls on your vehicle, then it's difficult to understand why you think you'd be entitled to any benefits that are created for those of us impacted by VW's remediation of the issue.

I'm not going to prolong this back and forth with you, but before I go I will say this -

When I originally bought the car, I believed in the clean diesel mantra. After my DPF died 37k miles into ownership, and with VW not wanting to assist me in the repairs, I decided to eliminate it completely rather than invest more money into a poorly designed system. Why would I buy another DPF unit that may crack again several thousand miles down the road? I needed a car that could reliably get me back and forth during my daily 4 hour round-trip commute.

Believe me when I say that I didn't want to spend a premium on a diesel commuter car in the first place, much less intend to rip out its emissions control devices less than a year into ownership. But, what happened happened, and I got the short end of the stick when trying to deal with VWoA. Despite going against federal law, my actions gave me a car that at least was reliable (potential HPFP kabooms not withstanding).

Now, if VW were to offer a buy back, then I'd be happy to put my faulty DPF back in, along with the rest of the parts that were taken off if that's what it takes to get out of this car. As far as I'm concerned, I lost faith in VW's engineering at 37k miles. If you think that's me "trying to cash in on an issue that doesn't impact them and they obviously didn't care about," then that's your prerogative.

astroboy · Sep 23, 2015

There's a real point in all this that if the fines were not so severe, they MIGHT be able to make it up to us.
Let's face it, this is an awesome car and almost all of us what to just keep driving it.

Slothy · Sep 23, 2015

Amstel78, I completely understand where you're coming from.
I had planned on going stage 2 along with the 2 micron kits next month since I'm on my 3rd DPF and out of warranty, with 70k on the car. It's only a matter of time before this dpf craps out.
But for now I just hope it last long enough till all this has settled and VW announces some kind of action plan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Philpug · Sep 23, 2015

Philth said:
Buybacks work off of the purchase price of the car. A "per mile" charge is deducted from the purchase price. Everyone's results will vary based off of their odometer.

What about a used car purchase? Or I know someone with a salvage title.

bubbagumpshrimp · Sep 23, 2015

astroboy said:
There's a real point in all this that if the fines were not so severe, they MIGHT be able to make it up to us.

Lol. Good one.

If there is a Buyback..What would it take for you get out of your TDI?

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