hard starting ~ cranks forever when >60

Dadwagon · Jun 29, 2018

So I’ve checked out the no starting sticky, but there is nothing on difficult starting that i can find.
Occasionally when overnights are cool, upon start up the engine fires, but quickly stalls (ignites for a millisecond). After that, the starter needs to crank for a solid 15 to 20 seconds before she starts.
It only happens on cool nights
Any help is much appreciated

KLXD · Jun 29, 2018

Idunno much about PD engines but it would help the people who do to help you if you'd give some more info like: New problem? Always been this way? Just got the car? Any recent work?

steve6 · Jun 29, 2018

Is your lift pump working? timing? Cam history?

BobnOH · Jun 29, 2018

Glow plugs. Doing research you'll find it's quite confusing, but you want to get that sorted out.

Vince Waldon · Jun 29, 2018

Is the Check Engine light on and/or have you had it scanned for codes with a VW-specific scanner?

Always a good place to start when diagnosing an issue... systems like the glow plugs for example are well monitored by the ECU and if there's an issue with them there should be a code telling you where to look.

Dadwagon · Jun 30, 2018

Just got the car, it was throwing a cel p0101, caused by worn out ears on turbo hose, changing the cold side turbo hose fixed it. no cel now as it just passed emissions here in ct) no idea if cam has been done, or the last timing belt service, but since it has 409k on the clock, i would assume it has had major service performed,

Not sure how to check lift pump- how do i go about checking?

Glow plugs- i thought they only worked with cold weather, lately its been sweltering here, 90 plus degrees

scooperhsd · Jul 1, 2018

FYI - glow plugs usually come on for a bit until the piston chamber comes up to full temp, to ensure full burn / keep emissions down. In such hot weather, it's usually not very long

Vince Waldon · Jul 1, 2018

Glow plugs run year-round, as posted above... but that said, they aren't needed as a starting assist until freezing or below.. so unlikely to be the cause of any starting issues except in the winter months.

Dadwagon · Jul 1, 2018

Could it be a sticky anti shudder valve? After shutting the car off, i hear a electrical winding sound for about 10 seconds,

Also, how would i check the lift pump? What is the lift pump?

KLXD · Jul 1, 2018

Lift pump's in the tank. Check it by turning on key but don't start it. Should hear it run for a few seconds.

This verifies it's running. Still could be plugged.

PD Rig · Jul 2, 2018

This may help. Has some good suggestions in there.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=323952

AndyBees · Jul 2, 2018

There's an assumption the OP has a PD engine. The 04 has the BEW PD engine. A link to an ALH having starting issues is not going to be helpful.

OP, there is a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) on the BEW engines relating to hard starts due to grounding for the Crankshaft Speed Sensor as well as a Glow Plug recall issue.

The link below has some good info on both topics.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=328868&highlight=pd+start+fix

PD Rig · Jul 2, 2018

AndyBees said:
There's an assumption the OP has a PD engine. The 04 has the BEW PD engine. A link to an ALH having starting issues is not going to be helpful.

OP, there is a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) on the BEW engines relating to hard starts due to grounding for the Crankshaft Speed Sensor as well as a Glow Plug recall issue.

The link below has some good info on both topics.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=328868&highlight=pd+start+fix

My apologies.

I believed the thread I attached to be about the pd engine. The op of the thread had a 2001 pd115 and DanG specifically references the bew engine code and the op's engine of this current thread is a bew.

Regardless, the crankshaft position sensor would be a thing to check on.

AndyBees · Jul 2, 2018

PD Rig ......... my apologies! You are correct ...

Dadwagon · Oct 16, 2018

Hey all
Hoping that revisit this with all of you.
New timing belt is in and the car runs great, but does not like starting in the morning.

Here are some knowns:

Timing torsion value is +2.0
There are no cels
Lift pump is fairly new and I can hear it kick on from under rear seat
Anti shudder valve works properly, closes and opens no problem

Any suggestions? The no starting condition is more often now with new timing belt,

I assume a glow plug problem would trigger trouble light? Is that correct? That’s about the only thing I have not investigated

Please help, winter is coming!

k_pt · Oct 16, 2018

How much pressure do you get on the tandem pump?

If it was glow plugs you would get white smoke coming from the exhaust.

Put clear fuel lines to check the return. That should be #1 mod for all TDIs, specially PDs that often mix fuel with oil on tandem pump and injector seals.

https://image.ibb.co/fqHWJ0/P-20181015-152538.jpg

miltoncf · Oct 16, 2018

Dadwagon said:
I assume a glow plug problem would trigger trouble light? Is that correct? That’s about the only thing I have not investigated

Yes. In my case at 55F overnight the MIL did not come on while the glow plugs are warming up - at which time the glow plug light is on for a second. Cranking the engine was variable for a couple seconds as if "not firing on all cylinders." Afterwards, the MIL is triggered while the engine runs smoothly. Taking it to Autozone for an odp2 hookup returns a generic glow plug fault.

Which makes me wonder: why doesn't the glow plug light return instead (never mind blink when the tail lights go out)? - AND -
why are posters suggesting that you might have a glow plug fault when neither light is on after starting?

Dadwagon · Oct 17, 2018

How can I check the tandem pump? Is that via vcds?

k_pt · Oct 17, 2018

Dadwagon said:
How can I check the tandem pump? Is that via vcds?

Side port.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/PD_fuel_delivery_check.pdf

miltoncf · Oct 17, 2018

This morning the glow plug light did not turn on, implying that none of them warmed up during initialisation. Cranking the engine didn't result in "not firing on all cylinders." So does the computer reprogram itself not to warm any of the glow plugs if a bad one was detected?

Dadwagon · Oct 17, 2018

Yes

Regarding clear fuel lines, is it ok to use steel braided vinyl? I have some left over from a plumbing job,, but I don’t think it’s rated for fuel

BobnOH · Oct 17, 2018

They gotta be fuel rated.

Dadwagon · Oct 20, 2018

would this fuel oil pump inlet fitting work on the side port of the tandem pump (to test fuel pressure)??

https://www.amazon.com/M12x1-5-Adap...ing+with+5/16+hose+barb&psc=1#customerReviews

Dadwagon · Oct 21, 2018

any help on how to source a good fitting for tandem pump pressure test?

k_pt · Oct 21, 2018

I used a turbo oil feed line bajo fiting

Dadwagon · Oct 23, 2018

Ok, so still having really tough starts in the morning, i changed the fuel lines to clear as suggested by k_PT.

This morning i noticed quite a bit of air in the return line- i’d say the line is about 80% air 20% fuel

is that normal??

k_pt · Oct 23, 2018

Dadwagon said:
Ok, so still having really tough starts in the morning, i changed the fuel lines to clear as suggested by k_PT.

This morning i noticed quite a bit of air in the return line- i’d say the line is about 80% air 20% fuel

is that normal??

No. You should get less than 10% air, and just only visible in the first second.

It seems that injectors are injecting just air, and unfortunately they doesn't run with air only.

Tandem pump has a check valve, that prevents fuel from going back to the tank.

You can insert a check valve on the return line or do this test:

"Tandem Pump Wear Test
Restore the fuel filter lines to normal. Now pull off the line marked #3, the return line from the fuel rail going to the thermo-tee filter, and place it in a container. Plug the port on the thermotee. Apply power to the lift pump. You should get no flow or almost no flow, say 25 ml per minute or less. Any more flow and you have an additional flow path due to wear on your tandem pump, or failure of the supply fuel pressure limiter. This flow path can allow the fuel system to drain back to the fuel tank when the engine is off, creating long cranking periods and rough starts. It will also result in reduced pressure at engine operating conditions. Once you start having issues, then the tandem pump will wear faster\as it is cranking with less than optimum lubrication (it has little fuel and much air). If you have the pressure gauge attached to the fuel supply rail port, it should read zero pressure. "

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/PD_fuel_delivery_check.pdf

Dadwagon · Oct 23, 2018

So if a check valve installed in return line fixes the issue, Can i get away without replacing the pump?

Any problems just leaving an inline check valve?

(Car runs like a champ once its started, it just the cold starts that are my issue)

Dadwagon · Oct 24, 2018

Yeah so i was just wondering if leaving a check valve on return fuel line is a viable option to replacing the expensive tandem pump?

k_pt · Oct 24, 2018

Yes, I think so, does the same job ...

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