Where is my oil going? Oil consumption/smoke

jprine

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Location
Chicago
TDI
03 GLS Golf TDI, 04 R32, 05 Passat Wagon TDI
details:
2003 manual, 156k, been using Mobil TDT oil for the last 30k?. Owned the car since 101k
Recently It started consuming allot of oil for the past 6k or so (about 1quart per 2000miles I would guess). It smokes constantly a bit, and smokes allot more when revved up or also allot under high boost in a high gear (WOT in 5th @ 70mpg on highway I can see allot of smoke in the rear view). It has always smoked a little bit after starting (valve seals) but not excessive, and that hasn't gotten any worse. The car drives pretty normal and has normal power (maybe sightly less power). Also the turbo sounds normal.

Did allot of searching on these forums, and it seems like the turbo or maybe the rings are the first things to check. I pulled the lower intercooler pipe and there was no pool of oil inside.. looks normal. Next I took the oil cap off of the valve cover while the car was running at idle to see how much blow by could be felt, and it felt like a ton of air was coming. (Is there a spec for how much crankcase pressure there should be so I can compare a gauge reading to a standard?)

I was going to pull the turbo inlet pipe off the turbo to feel for movement but my mechanic friend talked me out of it saying I'm better off pulling the down-pipe because if the seals are gone on the turbo but not the bearings it could feel normal but still be letting oil out. Also that with the excessive crank case pressure and that the turbo drives normal that he thinks its probably not the turbo anyway?

I will get the harbor fright diesel compression tester when I get a chance.

So is there anything other then bad/suck rings that can be causing my excessive pressure? And if it is my rings I read about treatments that can maybe fix it without having to open up the engine? (autoRX?)

Thanks!
 

Seatman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Location
Scotland
TDI
2014 Skoda rapid elegance 1.6 cr tdi
Just pull the downpipe and see if it's oily down there, it could be dumping the oil into the exhaust. Check for leaks around the bottom of the bellhousing too incase there's a bad crankshaft seal. it could be a leak too after all.
 

DougInFL

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Location
New Port Richey, FL
TDI
2001 Jetta 5-speed (Greasecar), 2002 Jetta TDI wagon auto, 2003 F350 7.3 CC LWB (soon to be Greasetruck)
one quart per 2000 miles?.......I'm burning 1 qt. per 500 miles. Currently reading threads to find out why my boost drops after warmed up. Before warming up to operating temp, she pushes 15-18 PSI.

Bad turbo?
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
My bet is rings.
Unless there is some bad history of wrong oil use, overheated, or total abuse, at 150K miles the rings and cylinders should be almost like new still, unless it had prior been run on grease/veg oil.

When I bought the '03 Jetta the head was off (laying in the trunk) miles were 167K and the hone marks were clearly visible on the cylinders. It seems kind of amazing, really. I don't think it had particularily very good care/maintainance. The original TB was never changed (reason for the head off) and the was a "quick lube" sticker on the windshield, although it did indicate a 5w-40 oil used-for what that's worth.
Oil use with relatively low mileage seems to me to be more a turbo seal or CCV valve clogged up.
Ever do the compression test??
 

Powder Hound

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 25, 1999
Location
Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
TDI
'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
To answer your other question, yes, when you remove the oil fill cap, it seems there is a ton of blow-by coming out. My 4-dr has never been abused (unless you count using non-VW coolant and Redline lubricants, but that's a different argument) and it blew like that when brand-spanking-new. It is completely normal to have a lot of pressure blowing out that cap when you remove it.

I vote with the other guys and think you ought to see if the turbine side of the turbocharger is spewing oil out the exhaust. About the only other likely thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned is the valve stem seals, but they're pretty hard to check without pulling manifolds off and looking deep into the head through the ports.
 

travism

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Location
Indiana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
I am having the same issue, oil changed 5,000 miles ago with syntheic. I checked at 3,000 and it was on the numbers. Just checked today and I'm about a quart low.
 

jonahkuzma

Active member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Location
Traverse City, Michigan
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI GL Platinum Grey
Similar Problem

I have a very similar issue going on.

2003 Jetta GL TDi with 164,XXX...bought it with 141,XXX

Right out of the driveway, had to replace the turbo...just did stock VNT-15 again.

Has always been an oil consumer; my local guru said this was normal, but the amount of oil i was adding each fill-up is not what he meant. I add about 1/4 to 1/2 a quart per fill...approx 650mi. I just noticed about a month ago, that my coolant looked a little low...i fact, there was oil in the reservoir. Replaced the oil cooler, hoping it was that and not something with the head. Oil is still mixing with coolant.

Have you checked your coolant reservoir for oil mix? I am now thinking we have to check the heads. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Jonah
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
More common for the oil cooler to have issues and mix coolant with the oil (or vice versa). O-rings inside it if I recall, keep the two fluids seperate, or at least they are supposed to.
 

jonahkuzma

Active member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Location
Traverse City, Michigan
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI GL Platinum Grey
Those that are burning oil...do you have a chip-tune? Do you drive it hard in the city (shift >3000 RPM's)? Lots of highway driving?

I am running Mobile 1 TDT, have an RC2+ chip-tune, adding 1/4-1/2 quart per tank and driving 85% highway and 15%, fast and hard in the city.
 

MattDaddy56

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Location
Catheys Valley, California
TDI
2002 Jetta
I'm going with Jettawreck. Have you checked the intercooler piping? Mine was doing the same thing and it was the oil seal in the turbo. I had quite a bit of oil in the bottom of the intercooler.
 

josh8loop

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Location
Vero Beach, Fl.
TDI
2002 VW Jetta TDI Manual(performed 01M to 5-speed swap) - 183,000 miles and climbing!
Those that are burning oil...do you have a chip-tune? Do you drive it hard in the city (shift >3000 RPM's)? Lots of highway driving?

I am running Mobile 1 TDT, have an RC2+ chip-tune, adding 1/4-1/2 quart per tank and driving 85% highway and 15%, fast and hard in the city.


I have heard a time or two about others that were using the Mobil TDT and using oil at a high rate. Those guys ended up switching to Rotella T6 full synthetic 5W40 and their consumption went down considerably. Just something to think about if you have made sure things are in good shape mechanically with the motor/turbo.
 
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jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
I have heard a time or two about others that were using the Mobil TDT and using oil at a high rate. Those guys ended up switching to Rotella T6 full synthetic 15W40 and their consumption went down considerably. Just something to think about if you have made sure things are in good shape mechanically with the motor/turbo.
Rotella T6 sythetic in 15w-40??
Another typo error, I think josh meant 5w-40. Myself, I havent had any consumption issues w/M1 TDT, (or any other oil either) but I don't run it too hard. Even with not so good turbo oil seals, if you consistantly run it pretty hard, it keeps the IC and plumbing clean of oil, so it could still be turbo related.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Sounds like bad turbo to me. I would pull the inlet tube off and reach in and see if it is starting to wobble excessively (engine OFF of course).

Pistons rings, outside of WVO tooefage, really don't wear much on the ALHs. Mine at 383k miles still had good looking cylinders.
 

josh8loop

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Location
Vero Beach, Fl.
TDI
2002 VW Jetta TDI Manual(performed 01M to 5-speed swap) - 183,000 miles and climbing!
Rotella T6 sythetic in 15w-40??
Another typo error, I think josh meant 5w-40. Myself, I havent had any consumption issues w/M1 TDT, (or any other oil either) but I don't run it too hard. Even with not so good turbo oil seals, if you consistantly run it pretty hard, it keeps the IC and plumbing clean of oil, so it could still be turbo related.

Yes, sorry 5w40 :). I fixed the post too.
 

jonahkuzma

Active member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Location
Traverse City, Michigan
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI GL Platinum Grey
I do run it hard in the city, but that is only 15% of my driving time. I did replace the turbo, new (VNT-15) June 2011; so I'm hoping my consumption is not turbo related.

Thanks for the info regarding Rotella T6 Josh.
 

jonahkuzma

Active member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Location
Traverse City, Michigan
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI GL Platinum Grey
Big thanks to Frank and Kirk! After much input from veteran TDi members and guru's...my issue is pointing toward inspecting piston rings. We will be doing a compression test (and maybe leak-down test) this weekend to see if rings are suspect.

To be continued...
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Compression test won't tell you the condition of the oil rings. It will tell you the condition of the compression rings. And if the oil rings are bad, the compression will actually be UP, since the oil leaking past the oil ring at the bottom of the piston will better allow the compression rings at the top of the piston to seal up. This is why normal, broken-in TDIs (as well as most any other piston engine) will show better-than-new compression.
 

wingrider02

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Location
MN
TDI
05 Dodge Ram 2500, 2k Golf
The oil ring(s) are just one part of the piston rings. As oilhammer said, if your oil ring is shot, your compression will go up, yet you will consume oil at a much faster rate.
 

jonahkuzma

Active member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Location
Traverse City, Michigan
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI GL Platinum Grey
Thanks for the clarification. So, which out of the 3 piston rings, is the oil ring? Is there a certain way to do a leak-down test in order to test for this possible bad oil ring condition, WITHOUT actually pulling the engine apart and looking directly at a given cylinder or piston? We were going to pull each glow plug, to check for oil at the tips, then if we see oil at a given glow-plug tip, go chasing down that cylinder and examine that pistons rings.

Am I on the right track?

Just out of curiosity, why would the engine compression increase if the oil ring was shot? Thanks
 

Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Location
Wilmington, NC USA
TDI
2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
Each piston has three ring grooves: Top two grooves have compression ring, bottom groove is oil ring. No way to do any sort of leak down or other test to check oil rings. Pulling glow plugs might tell you something, but likely only what you already know (oil is getting in there!!).

Also, with head off and pistons in, you cant see anything there. Can check cylinder wall condition, that's it. You need to drop the pan and pop pistons out.

The oil ring may or may not show any visible problems. But at that point you simply replace all the rings on all the pistons, a light hone on the bores, new rod brg shells and button it back up.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Just out of curiosity, why would the engine compression increase if the oil ring was shot? Thanks
Because the excess oil blowing past the oil ring, which is on the bottom, gets pushed up to the upper two rings, the compression rings, and better seals them. This is why an old-fashioned gasser 'wet test' involves putting a dab of oil in the cylinder, to see if a cylinder with weak compression goes up. This is sort of a farce, though, on any modern engine, since it will for sure go up unless the compression was ZERO, in which case it would most certainly NOT be just rings.

Don't put any oil down a diesel cylinder, however!
 

jonahkuzma

Active member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Location
Traverse City, Michigan
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI GL Platinum Grey
Just curious, about something. Along with this oil consumption issue i have going on...I also recently noticed that I have some oil in my coolant reservoir. I changed the oil cooler, because it is a cheap part and thought it may solve the problem, but did do a complete clean-out of the system to get the oil out. Now it looks very oily again in the coolant reservoir. I know that this is not where my oil is going, but would this symptom help isolate where my oil may be going?

Thanks
 

Dieselmad

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Location
Fochville, South Africa
TDI
Jetta MK4 1.9Tdi,
Take the head off and check the gasket. It could be that the oil is leaking through to the cylinder and into the cooling system. When you took the oil cap of did you smell any exhaust gasses?
 

jonahkuzma

Active member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Location
Traverse City, Michigan
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI GL Platinum Grey
Do not really smell any exhaust fumes when popping the oil fill cap. Taking the head off, to check the head gasket, will be a little beyond my skill set.

I am going to do a full coolant flush to get all the oil out and to see if the oil re-contaminates the coolant reservoir.

I am thinking I may have multiple issues going on...have to start isolating individual problems.
 
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