SUNRG said:
Your accusation that the competition is not building their 2nd gen. 505.01 oils to also meet BMW and MB specs is demonstrably incorrect.
In the context of showing that AFL is a 2nd generation product, I think it's quite correct.
Motul Specific 505.01 only lists VW and Ford specs, as does
Elf Excellium DID and
Castrol TXT.
It appears that one difference between the gen 1 and gen 2 products is the prerequisite hierarchy - Gen 1 500.00, 505.00 - Gen 2 502.00, 505.00. It appears a second is the inclusion of ACEA Cx and the latest BMW and Benz (229.51). Third is the addition of other viscosity grades in addition to the gen 1 5W-40 restriction.
AMSOIL had the first gen 2 product on the US market from 1 Jan '06 thru the arrival of Elf in
September as I pointed out in
August. I don't think Motul's gen2 product has landed yet.
I look forward to putting VOA and performance side-by-side for the gen2 products.
SUNRG said:
And, where can your assertion that AFL was built on the updated Jul05 50501 spec be confirmed?
In the interest of fairness, prove Motul was formulated to the 2nd gen spec
as you stated. I've already confirmed my assertion to my satisfaction and gave you the opportunity to do the same. I trust that, for now, that will be sufficient.
SUNRG said:
...If anyone can demonstrate knowledge of all aspects of 7/05 50501, then document independant lab confirmation that AFL meets/exceeds all aspects of 7/05 50501 - we can all be objectively confident that the oil was built to this specification.
My focus has been to treat all products equally - that means we subject all products to equal scrutiny - right?
I have talked with the people that managed the reformulation of AFL and know what level of due diligence they went thru to make sure the oil exceeds the specs on the bottle. I say exceeds because AMSOIL corporate mentality is that ties are unacceptable - that means the oil has to outperform everything else in some way. So, knowing the people, talking with them about the reformulation, and understanding their point of view, I have absolutely no trouble at all dropping to a 'lowest common denominator' and being 100% comfortable that the products at least meet the specs on the bottle. I've offered you access to people that can absolutely confirm those facts - and you've not availed yourself to this source of information.
I personally (opinion!) give them an extra couple of points simply because they trail blazed the new spec with a partner. They could have waited until someone else developed an additive package, then simply licensed it. But they were already in the upgrade process for the other specs - from Benz 229.5 to .51, for example.
SUNRG said:
while all aspects of OEM specifications are not common knowledge...
These aspects are not common knowledge to the PUBLIC but they
are common knowledge to the people making the oil and to the labs testing the oil. That's the only way the oil can be produced and tested. I hope this has been sufficiently proven by my earlier contact with Southwest Research Institute, as the only US lab certified by VW to run VW tests - they have the VW specs and test to them daily - and that MUST include ALL the performance requirements.
SUNRG said:
Yes they are - as are all the earlier VW specs. In addition, the ACEA and most of the Euro OEM system is one of self-certification. This, at least for the ACEA side of the issue, is clearly outlined in the initial pages of the ACEA docs.
AMSOIL is bound to the exact same requirements for ACEA and OEM specs as any other company - and they are further saddled with full product liability in probably the most litigious country in the world. This fact alone is even more startling, considering there hasn't been a single challenge to ANY of the company's claims - bottles, datasheets, white papers, comparisons - none.
Remember the Castrol Syntec move to Group III? Remember how many companies were involved in going after Castrol - including Mobil? What's stopping VWAG or VWoA from suing AMSOIL out of existence? Maybe the truth?
These are all from your spreadsheet, except the
AMSOIL and
Bardahl numbers you didn't choose to include.
I'll update this when I see a VOA from the other Gen 2 505.01 products, and when I can find a VOA for the old AFL formula.
'Till then...
Andy