1998 Jetta TDI won't start at ALL!

Hey guys,

I was leaving my school (NJIT) at around 3:00PM to go home and after about 10 minutes of driving through Newark to reach the 280 West exit, it stalls. I was like, "Um, ok....." so I attempt to restart it but it won't start at all. I hear the starter cranking away yet it's not enough to start the car. Oil level is fine...actually, it was just replaced last Wednesday by my dad. Funny thing is (and I'm actually glad that it happened) my brother was leaving Rutgers and also going towards the 280 West exit. I just saw him drive past my car and I called him to come on over and give me a boost (thinking my battery died). When we connected the jumper cables and started the car after waiting 10 minutes for it to charge, the car STILL won't start! Like before - it turns over but won't start. So I left my car parked there and my brother and I went home.

It has 160,000 miles on it with the oil filter changed just recently, the fuel filter about 2 months ago, and the timing belt was changed at 108,000 miles.

So what could've happened? Could it be the fuel filter? Relay 109? Timing belt? Air leak in the fuel lines? How would I check these things?

If I come back there tomorrow, what can I do to start the car?

It really sucked to have to drive back home with my brother's car Please respond ASAP!! I'm going to start searching for "no start" issues and see what I can come up with. If I do come back tomorrow, at least I'll be prepared to actually check and see what's wrong. Thanks for the help in advance!

~Tony

How did it "stall"? did it lose power and cease running during a brief period of about 10 seconds? Or did it immediately, without hiccups or other warnings, begin slowing as if the engine were switched to OFF?
Immediate loss of power, and the subsequent inability to re-fire the engine, even for a moment, on the bits of fuel still in the pump make me think the problem is NOT the fuel filter and NOT air in the lines.

Relay 109? Maybe, or something else electrical in nature if the cessation was sudden and immediate. Maybe the fuel shut-off solenoid on the pump, maybe the three pin electrical plug to the fuel pump, maybe a broken wire, maybe...
Timing belt? Possible, and if so the damage is already done, so further testing can't make things worse.
Loosen one of the pipe nuts at the top of an injector. Operate the starter motor. Check for fuel weeping at the loose nut. No fuel? Check the electrical supplies to the pump.

Relay 109 most likely. I'd be $10 with even odds (I'd guess 2-1 it is the 109) Does the glow plug light come on when you turn the key? Go back, and if the car is still there, take a look. Get a 109 before going - it's a quick job to change if you have a flashlight to see into the relay panel.

Lug_Nut said:

How did it "stall"? did it lose power and cease running during a brief period of about 10 seconds? Or did it immediately, without hiccups or other warnings, begin slowing as if the engine were switched to OFF?
Immediate loss of power, and the subsequent inability to re-fire the engine, even for a moment, on the bits of fuel still in the pump make me think the problem is NOT the fuel filter and NOT air in the lines.

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It immediately stalled, almost as if someone switched the engine to "OFF." No warnings, hiccups, noises, or any signs of any kind.

Lug_Nut said:

Relay 109? Maybe, or something else electrical in nature if the cessation was sudden and immediate. Maybe the fuel shut-off solenoid on the pump, maybe the three pin electrical plug to the fuel pump, maybe a broken wire, maybe...

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It's not relay 109. As rdkern mentioned, if the glow pluglight isn't on then the relay is gone. The glow plug light goes through its usual ritual when I start the car - turns on and goes out after about 10 seconds or so.

Yeah, I think it's an electrical problem with the pump...but which pump are you talking about: the fuel pump or injection pump? Where is my fuel pump on my car?

Lug_Nut said:

Loosen one of the pipe nuts at the top of an injector. Operate the starter motor. Check for fuel weeping at the loose nut. No fuel? Check the electrical supplies to the pump.

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And I think it could also be an air leak in the fuel lines. Once my dad came home, he checked to see if the fuel filter was receiving fuel as I cranked away. Nothing. We cracked one injector with the same procedure. Nothing as well. So the car isn't getting ANY fuel. Could it be a problem with my fuel pump?

Let me mention this last thing before you guys respond. I went over to Greg's place to get my car scanned since I had the "flashing glow plug light" problem. I also checked my IQ settings and tweaked it a little. Yet we couldn't save this setting (probably a bad connection on his end), so when we exited the menu with the blocks and re-enetered it, the number changed to something different. This number is neither the stock number or the number we tried saving - it's a totally different number the ECU made up. Yet this number was in a good range of where the IQ setting should be so we left it alone. Could it be that the ECU is randomly changing this number and went "out-of-range" at the time the car stalled? In other words - is the timing is off?

prime the filter again. put hose back

the line that goes back towards the filter (return line) start priming the pump again. put hose back

loosen the 17mm nuts on the top of the injectors, and then crank until you get fuel at the injectors, tighten

then try to start... with a jumper box...

tmoya4646 said:

Yeah, I think it's an electrical problem with the pump...but which pump are you talking about: the fuel pump or injection pump? Where is my fuel pump on my car??

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Your profile makes no mention of you having added a lift pump, so your fuel pump IS your injection pump.
Your pump is that big silver thingy hanging off the front of your engine. It has four metal pipes off one end of it that send (or should send) highly pressurized fuel to the four injectors. Oh, come on, I'm yanking your chain... Yeah, it isn't running right now, so you're depressed, but it isn't the end of the world.

If you have a small vacuum pump, the type used for brake bleeding, remove the fuel tank to fuel filter hose at the fuel filter. See if the hand pump can suck fuel from the tank.
Reconnect that hose and remove the filter to injector/fuel pump hose at the filter. See if the hand pump can suck the fuel through the filter.
Reconnect that hose and remove the injector and pump return hose from the "T" fitting on the filter. See if the hand pump can suck fuel through the injector pump.
Reconnect that hose. You've now, if you've been suckcessful, removed the majority of air from the fuel system, (except for the pipes to the injectors), enough that you'd normally be able to start the engine without entrapped air issues. Leave the nuts at the injector end of the high pressure pipes loose by just one full turn to aid in bleeding air from them. Tighten the nuts once fuel begins to weep. If it still doesn't start, you've other problems.
If your attempts at drawing fuel have failed at any one of these steps, you then know where a fuel blockage exists.
I don't think ECU timing range adjustments are sufficient to render the engine totally inoperable. Mechanical timing is off? Definitely. Electronic timing adjustments? Less likely.

can I poke a little humor into this??

Being from NJ, and being to NJIT a few times... this may be a moot point as the car might not be around much longer hehe...

seriously though, sorry about this. I will be watching to find out what it is as I have a 98 as well

I actually had a similar problem just last week. My fuel line between the tank and filter was clogged. I blew it clear with compressed air, reprimed the IP and all was well again.

Wow this is crazy. So me and my dad checked up on the Bentley manual this morning and came across a procedure in testing the fuel pump. It mentioned the 87 terminal on the fuel pump relay, so we decided to check relay 109. Thinking this was the problem, we bought a new one from the stealership for $34 (yes, I know, they usually cost around $10 online but we needed to see if it'll work). Turns out it didn't work. Cranked up the engine with no luck. We even changed the fuel pump fuse yet it still wouldn't start.

Then my dad had a hunch in checking the connection going to the fuel pump. He disconnected the switch and connected a wire from the fuel pump switch to the positive end of the battery in place of it. Cranked up the engine and it actually started!! So we concluded that there was either a short somewhere in relation to the connector switch (that was now disconnected), the switch was bad, or the fuel pump isn't getting enough power for it to start up properly. So we took the car for a spin to see if it had sufficient power. 30 seconds of driving down my street - the car stalls. My dad comes on over and checks the wire connection and its fine. Only now it won't start even with the wire in place! So we tow it back to my house and are still puzzled about what's going on.

So it could be that the fuel pump has gone bad, the switch going to the fuel pump is bad, or there's a short somewhere in the switch line. OR it could be something with the timing, but I'm not sure about that. Hopefully it is the timing so we could just change its setting and be done with this issue. However, even if we wanted to change the setting via VAG-COM, the car would have to be running in a warm state.....but the timing is supposed to start the car in the first place so I don't know....Hopefully when we get VAG-COM over here, we can try connecting the wire up and start the car temporarily again.

I'm stumped right now. Any insight guys? My dad's actually considering getting me a 2000 red Chevy Cavalier for $3000 cause he's fed up with the car. Even if it is a manual, I like driving the TDI!!

UPDATE: Found out we have a spare fuel pump in the attic from the last engine (blew because previous owner had put gasoline in the car- so we took out that engine and replaced it with the engine that's in my car now). Should I see if this pump would aid in starting the car?

It's probably not the pump, I would guess the ECU might be bad if you're not getting supply voltage to the fuel cutoff solenoid.

I would still try re-bleeding the pump as listed above.

I would see if you get any voltage at the cutoff solenoid from the ECU (should be about 3 seconds worth of 12v, then off).

show him the crash tests from the crappyliar... that changed my parents mind...

alphaseinor said:

It's probably not the pump, I would guess the ECU might be bad if you're not getting supply voltage to the fuel cutoff solenoid.

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Yeah, I'm thinking this is the problem. I guess I could only check up on the setting because I can't start the car to actually change this setting.

alphaseinor said:

I would still try re-bleeding the pump as listed above.

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Yes but it easily started a couple of times before. I think it's an electrical problem rather than an air leak problem in the fuel lines.

I'll try and see if the old fuel pump works. If not, then it has to be a timing issue or the switch has gone bad. If I try starting the car now, the time and miles on the dash slowly fade away - is this normal when you try to crank the car repeatedly?

tmoya4646 said:

I'll try and see if the old fuel pump works. If not, then it has to be a timing issue or the switch has gone bad. If I try starting the car now, the time and miles on the dash slowly fade away - is this normal when you try to crank the car repeatedly?

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It is if your battery sucks.

I'm going to go with it's a timing issue. Loose belt, jumped tooth, etc. The jumping of the solenoid could have been a fluke and it might have started anyway if you just happened to try it at that same time. If something is repeatable, then maybe.

Out of every thread I've seen on this board, I think Paramedic is the only person who said he's actually seen a bad ECM.

Please have your dad get rid of the car. We're also tired of you messing with it. I'd love to have a back up car.

darkscout said:

Please have your dad get rid of the car. We're also tired of you messing with it. I'd love to have a back up car.

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Seconded

All in favor?

darkscout said:

It is if your battery sucks.

I'm going to go with it's a timing issue. Loose belt, jumped tooth, etc. The jumping of the solenoid could have been a fluke and it might have started anyway if you just happened to try it at that same time. If something is repeatable, then maybe.

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The timing belt looks to be in good condition - stable, sturdy, and "on track." We jumped the solenoid at least 4 times and each time we hooked up the wire, it started the car. Yet I don't know why it wouldn't work after driving it around. Still, I think something went wrong when Greg and I were changing the IQ settings. The number is probably so out of range right now that the car won't even start. That or a bad fuel pump with its bad solenoid. Gonna keep working on it - and it's not like I need the car running right away, so there's no rush as of now.

tmoya4646 said:

I'll try and see if the old fuel pump works. If not, then it has to be a timing issue or the switch has gone bad.

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Do you have all the tools to do a replacement timing belt? Oh and you'll need a new tensioner too. And not to say it doesn't happen but solenoids don't fail very often considering how simple they are (Large coil, chunk of metal). Your o-ring MAY have slipped down, which I had happen. It interferes with the normal operation. If your slipped bad enough that could be the cause. A strong 12V and unlimited amps may be enough to pop it open. You should be able to test it in VAG-COM by cycling it.

darkscout said:

Do you have all the tools to do a replacement timing belt? Oh and you'll need a new tensioner too. And not to say it doesn't happen but solenoids don't fail very often considering how simple they are (Large coil, chunk of metal). Your o-ring MAY have slipped down, which I had happen. It interferes with the normal operation. If your slipped bad enough that could be the cause. A strong 12V and unlimited amps may be enough to pop it open. You should be able to test it in VAG-COM by cycling it.

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Alright cool. I'll test the old fuel pump just in case I do have a failed solenoid. If not, then it's off to check on the o-ring and a possible timing belt replacement. In testing the o-ring via VAG-COM, where and in which category can I cycle it? If I have VAG-COM available, I might as well check the IQ setting with the engine off. Hopefully it'll allow me to do this because I should be in a range of about 3.0 - 5.0 mg/R, around the default value of 32768.

tmoya4646 said:

Alright cool. I'll test the old fuel pump just in case I do have a failed solenoid. If not, then it's off to check on the o-ring and a possible timing belt replacement. In testing the o-ring via VAG-COM, where and in which category can I cycle it? If I have VAG-COM available, I might as well check the IQ setting with the engine off. Hopefully it'll allow me to do this because I should be in a range of about 3.0 - 5.0 mg/R, around the default value of 32768.

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IQ is dynamic. You check it with the engine running.

There should be a test where it will cycle a ton of things. I forget what it's called. If you do it with the car running it'll kill it. If it's not running it'll just cycle through all your solenoids.

If you want to look at the o-ring just get a wrench and pop the top off. Should take 10 minutes at most.

Change the solinoid from the other pump, see if that helps. If it does not with a regular hookup try the direct to the battery. Easy thing to do, will eliminate that problem from the puzzle, and might even be the culprit. If the timing had skipped you probably would not have been able to do the restart. I have heard of the tensioner becoming loose and changing the timing, so you could maybe check that. Fuel solinoid or something close to that sounds to be your problem. If you want, take the inlet and outlet hoses from the pump directly and feed them fresh fuel. That would also eliminate the tank, lines, and filter from the mix.

Benjamin

Thanks guys. I checked the voltage on the pins with the ingnition on and everything checks out fine - around 12V. We're going to exchange the injection pump with the old one tomorrow morning since my dad's at work right now. I cracked open all the injectors and started cranking away. I had fuel come out so I know fuel is getting to them. I also don't see any air bubbles in the clear line to the pump and it's full of fuel. Relay 109 was replaced and the fuel pump fuse as well. So I think my timing is off - either the timing belt or the IQ setting.

Don't know if it's normal or not, but whenever I turn the key to its "on" position, there's this sort of humming noise coming from the fuel pump. Then after about 10 seconds or so, it makes a "click" sound and then there's no noise afterwards. Is this a bad sign of a bad fuel pump? Normal start-up noises?

I've read up on similar issues on this site and some people have had IQ setting problems - meaning the number would jump as high as 9 mg/R on its own. So I don't know if I should get a hold of VAG-COM first, scan it, and check for codes....or if I should just replace the pump with the old one to see if that works. Right now I'm prepping the tools needed to take out the fuel pump for tomorrow morning.

Alright, all the grounds seem to be ok. I guess if this fuel pump swap doesn't work tomorrow morning, I'll need to change the timing belt. If not that, then I'll try and get a hold of another ECU and see if it actually starts. Fuel is getting through the system, so it's an electrical or timing problem. Replacing the fuel pump couldn't hurt either - at least I have an old one to test it out. I've got nothing to lose.

Alright, all the grounds seem to be ok. I guess if this fuel pump swap doesn't work tomorrow morning, I'll need to change the timing belt.

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We've been trying to tell you that the IP swap requires a timing belt job. Which require full timing belt tools. You can't just "swap the IP" and NOT DO THE TIMING BELT. At the very least YOU WILL NEED A NEW TENSIONER. LOOK AT THE PUMP. SEE THAT BLACKISH PIECE OF RUBBER. THAT IS YOUR TIMING BELT. The tensioner is one time use. You tension it, it's tensioned. No going back.

Actually. I apologize for the above. Please enlighten us as to how you plan on replacing your IP. Pictures are a bonus. I haven't seen a good disaster thread in a while.

but whenever I turn the key to its "on" position, there's this sort of humming noise coming from the fuel pump.

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Are you sure the PO didn't install a lift pump? There should be NO humming when you turn the key (unless you have a gasser or a PD). There is no electric pump of any sort on the TDI. The IP is mechanically driven and electronically controlled. No spinning = no running pump. Plain and simple. Where is the 'humming' sound coming from? Can you place your hands on stuff and have someone keyon/keyoff and feel with your hands what is 'humming'? My money is on the solenoid. PULL THE DAMN SOLENOID OUT AND MAKE SURE THE O-RING IS IN THE PROPER POSITION.

Swapping an IP isn't a trivial task it's more involved than a timing belt (when was yours last done?) since it is basically a timing belt AND an IP swap. If you want to just get whilly nilly about replacing stuff. Bleached has full AHUs for sale. I'll take your old one as a core and just drop the new engine in. It should actually be easier. All you need to do is a few bolts and the fuel lines.

IQ != Timing. IQ= Injection Quantity. If your timing is off it's because of something else. Jumped tooth, Loose belt, Loose bolt etc.

So I don't know if I should get a hold of VAG-COM first, scan it, and check for codes....

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Wait. You mean you haven't done this yet? You haven't scanned a single thing and you're ready to start swapping small components such as the IP?

Does anyone know how to get a hold of the NJ TPS (TDI Protection Services)? Someone needs to evaluate this car's current situation and see if it needs to be placed in foster care.

He also seems to be replacing the IP with one that had GAS go through it.Don't swap pump out!!!If anything,swap the fuel pump solenoids(the round thing w/ 1 wire coming from top of it,above the injection lines)-it's either a 22mm or 24mm nut(those were 2 sizes on Craftsman open end wrench I bought).I didn't know the tensioners on A3's were one time use.Take pump off= removing TB.The only thing I can think of "humming" on the IP would be the black box on it-and I think that is not to be removed except by a rebuilder.I say he should pm Hevster1.............

Go take your car to the dealer.

It'll be better service, and cheaper, than what you're doing.

tmoya, how much you want to sell it for? i'll be on the east coast soon and can easily tow it home. You'll never have to think about it again. If you do want to sell it to me though, DON'T TOUCH IT. NOT EVEN WITH A 100' POLE. LEAVE IT ALONE, for the love of tdis, PLEASE.

Sooo-did you get it going yet?

Yes, it's fixed now. So no, the car isn't for sale.....

Turns out the ECU went bad, so we had to replace it with a new one from the dealer. We didn't swap out the fuel pumps - we just changed over the solenoids but it didn't start regardless. So we figured it could've been the timing belt (loose tensioner, skipped thread, etc.) but I urged my dad to check the ECU first. I told him about the VAG-COM GtG at Greg's and how we cleared the codes, so he went along with it. So we went to the dealer and they, thankfully and graciously, had a spare ECU we could try out on the car. Popped it in - started right up! Amazing how slim my chances were of a bad computer module...but at least it wasn't the timing! hehehe

Actually, now that we got out of that ordeal, my dad's thinking of getting me a new car anyways. He wants to use the TDI to go to work instead of the Montero (wastes gas like CrAzY!!!) so we went back to the dealer to look at some used Volkswagens. I wanted to go with VW again cause I like their comfortability and reliability. Unfortunately they didn't have ANY diesels in stock (god damn...) so we looked at a Jetta Wolfsberg 1.8T and a GTI 1.8T, all with about 25MPG. Such a downgrade from the TDI.....so we left without making a deposit on any of them in hopes of finding some better deals/TDIs over the internet.

So I know this is off-topic, but do you guys know of any cars in need of selling? Especially if they're TDIs? Or maybe manuals? Or even GTIs? Budget we'd like to keep is at $15,000 or lower cause I intend on paying it off at around $300 monthly. If it's around $4,000, and in good condition with low miles - that's even better. Any opinions/deals out there? Thanks for the help with the car and thanks in advance for the suggestions! You guys are always a pleasure to come to for help.

~Tony

Get a Corolla.

Idiot-proof, and can approach 40 MPG with a manual.

Post a WTB in the vehicle section-man,you're lucky the dealer would let you try the ecu out-usually w/electrical it's no returns.I would say don't worry about getting another vehicle-keep driving the 98.I think the 98's tend to be more reliable than the newer ones,but thats my opinion as I do not own a newer TDI.I think an 03 TDI would be a good bet-last year before they put PD engines in them and most bugs in A4 platform had been worked out,IIRC, and you should be able to pick up a decent one for under $15k.If you find an 04 or newer(not likely for $15k),make sure you have history of oil changes and that proper oil was used!There are a few discussions here about that topic...But,if I were you-keep the 98-send that "spare" injection pump to DIS on west coast for rebuild(you did say GAS had been run through it,not good).Also-stay away from automatics!!!

Indeed...I hate automatics now lol. Manuals are the way to go! We're gonna keep looking online to hopefully find another TDI for me to use. My dad's so pissed at the Montero right now hahaha. He complains about the 15MPG he's getting - I don't blame him

Anyways, I'm off to AC. I'll get back to this subject after I win some money Later!

~Tony

tmoya4646 said:

Amazing how slim my chances were of a bad computer module...but at least it wasn't the timing!

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Did the 'new' ECM have your Aligator chips in it? Are you sure they were perfectly seated in YOUR ecm? Given that they're socketed AND you replaced them yourself. I'll still hold out that it's not the ECM.