Fuel additives

sgoldste01

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Bob_Fout said:
Same here, I was very impressed with cold starts (0*F and up) and general running with Stanadyne, and with FPPF. Much better than Power Service's additive offerings.
Which Stanadyne product are you running? Lubricity?

And what is FPPF?

Sorry for being a nube, but I haven't even received my new Golf TDI yet, and am trying to do some advance research.
 

sgoldste01

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Bob_Fout said:
Stanadyne performance forumula: http://www.stanadyne.com/view.php?id=74

FPPF, I used their Total Power additive: http://www.fppf.com/totalpower.asp
I found this quote on the Stanadyne Lubricity page interesting:

"Five times more lubricating content than other Stanadyne additives".

If lubrication is the most important thing that Common Rail TDIs need, shouldn't we use the product that provides the most lubrication?
 

pleopard

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They specify that it's for fuels with very low lubricity, i.e. dry fuels. Would it do any harm? I doubt it, but I have no idea. According to Stanadyne, the lubricity formula was the one endorsed by VW with a VW part number (prefixed ZVW). However, I'm not sure this is correct.
 

sgoldste01

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pleopard said:
They specify that it's for fuels with very low lubricity, i.e. dry fuels. Would it do any harm? I doubt it, but I have no idea. According to Stanadyne, the lubricity formula was the one endorsed by VW with a VW part number (prefixed ZVW). However, I'm not sure this is correct.
So why aren't we running Stanadyne Lubricity all year, if VW endorses it, and if lubrisity is the most important factor to fuel system longevity?
 

GTIDan

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sgoldste01 said:
So why aren't we running Stanadyne Lubricity all year, if VW endorses it, and if lubrisity is the most important factor to fuel system longevity?
One reason might be that VW does NOT recommend any added fuel additives for their 09 and 10 TDI motors.
 

sgoldste01

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Is anyone on this forum running Stanadyne Lubricity or Performance formulas in their 2009 or 2010 TDI engines? Does it seem to be helpful (that is, better economy, quieter running, improved power, easier starting in cold temps, no fuel pump problems that you can tells so far, etc)?
 

lad

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Stanadyne says you can mix their products together, so possibly using the Performance Formula with the Lubricity might not be a bad idea
 

DoubleLifeOfVeronique

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I ran the Stanadyne Performance formula this winter in my 09 Jetta TDI and found it made the car run a lot quieter. I got a few miles more per gallon, but it was a pretty brutal winter this year, so the heater was cranked, etc., as well as lousy winter fuel, made for less miles per gallon. I plan on running it only in the winter months.
 

Tin Man

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Newbies....

Please be aware that the only gasoline additive worth its price, Techron, also pollutes/damages engine oil performance, so when used, should be right before an oil change, and only if a problem exists . There is little thought put into possible side effects of aftermarket additives by anyone except automotive manufacturers all of whom specifically do not recommend aftermarket fuel additives (or oil additives for that matter) except Stanadyne for un-winterized diesel during very cold weather to prevent it from gelling.

TM
 

sgoldste01

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Tin Man said:
Newbies....

Please be aware that the only gasoline additive worth its price, Techron, also pollutes/damages engine oil performance, so when used, should be right before an oil change, and only if a problem exists . There is little thought put into possible side effects of aftermarket additives by anyone except automotive manufacturers all of whom specifically do not recommend aftermarket fuel additives (or oil additives for that matter) except Stanadyne for un-winterized diesel during very cold weather to prevent it from gelling.

TM
Surely you can understand the confusion here. Earlier in this thread (or maybe a completely different thread; I've read so many I'm getting them confused) is a Bosch PowerPoint presentation stating, flat out, that lubricity is the most important factor in fuel system wear. We also read that diesel here in the US doesn't have as much lubricity as in Europe. Granted, that presentation was created several years ago (2003?). But it seems to me that, if anything, the move to ULSD here in the US probably made matters worse, not better with regard to lubricity.

Believe me, I would like to be able to just drive up to any diesel pump (preferably the one with the best price in town), fill up my tank, and go without giving it a second thought. But with the factors stated in the first paragraph of this reply, I'm not sure if that would be a safe idea in the long term.

The stations near where I live that carry diesel are BJs, Sunoco, Hess, and Kwik Fill, listed in order from best to worst price. I don't know that any of them are graded as "Premium Diesel", and I don't know if the quality from any of these stations/brands is superior to another.

So my temptation is to buy my diesel from BJs, then add Stanadyne Lubricity to each tank regardless of season.

Or do you have a better suggestion?
 

Tin Man

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Good question.

sgoldste01 said:
Surely you can understand the confusion here. Earlier in this thread (or maybe a completely different thread; I've read so many I'm getting them confused) is a Bosch PowerPoint presentation stating, flat out, that lubricity is the most important factor in fuel system wear. We also read that diesel here in the US doesn't have as much lubricity as in Europe. Granted, that presentation was created several years ago (2003?). But it seems to me that, if anything, the move to ULSD here in the US probably made matters worse, not better with regard to lubricity.
Further analysis of what Bosch seemed to imply and their position on lubricity can be interpreted as concern for FUTURE diesel tech needing better lubricity due to looming stricter pollution standards in Europe. See this thread.

It is arguable whether they also just wanted to avoid the extra cost of making a more durable fuel pump for North American diesel. See the quote from here.

And you have to wonder about TornadoRed's claim that his fuel pump lasted over 300,000 miles because he used additives, but when the evidence for lubricity is looked at (what scant evidence there is available - the aftermarket additive makers are silent here usually) tests show the brands he used DECREASE the lubricity!
Believe me, I would like to be able to just drive up to any diesel pump (preferably the one with the best price in town), fill up my tank, and go without giving it a second thought. But with the factors stated in the first paragraph of this reply, I'm not sure if that would be a safe idea in the long term.

The stations near where I live that carry diesel are BJs, Sunoco, Hess, and Kwik Fill, listed in order from best to worst price. I don't know that any of them are graded as "Premium Diesel", and I don't know if the quality from any of these stations/brands is superior to another.

So my temptation is to buy my diesel from BJs, then add Stanadyne Lubricity to each tank regardless of season.

Or do you have a better suggestion?
There are skeptics and there are believers on this forum. Trouble is, there is little to prove one way or the other. One side trusts the aftermarket claims (and they can be extensive - see the newbie posts above) and the other side may or may not trust anyone, but if they do, they trust the engineers that designed the engines and work for the manufacturers. The manufacturers have the most to lose if their engines fail, even at high mileage. Whenever I ask the question of whether fleet managers of diesel trucks routinely add aftermarket additives, there is silence on these web pages. The answer, of course, is that they don't. Mixing an unknown combo with one that was tailor made by the fuel supplier has unknown results and is more likely to harm than help, many feel.

I personally don't use aftermarket additives but buy mostly brand name fuel which seems to have the best chance of having the right amount of proper additive put in before it reaches the pump.

The chance of my fuel pump failing from lack of proper lubricity may increase, but the cost of fuel additives, the risk of adverse side effects, and the trouble it takes to fuss with it does not seem to be worth it to me. Its sort of like insurance or extended warranties. Most people would say buy them if it makes you feel better. Trouble is, an extended warranty may also make you less apt to care for your item properly! I don't put additives in, so I might just be more careful with the car in other ways. So far, 173,000 miles and counting.

I would bet that the cost of the one fuel pump in the millions of miles it would take to see one extra one fail (surely you don't believe that putting in additives will make the pumps last forever; see "number needed to treat" in the medical literature), vs the cost and fuss of putting in additive is much less. The interest that would have been saved or accrued if I used the money to pay off other things or put in the bank would also count. Wish me luck!

TM;)
 
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Tin Man

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Wal*Mart was quoted by a national reporter a couple of years back as bragging that its customers are not as concerned about fuel additives and that it doesn't apparently put as many into its fuel. I stopped buying Wal*Mart fuel after that.

Kroger has an extra additive at extra cost button on their fuel pumps, with all of the usual claims, around where I live, but it also has a "fuel quality pledge" statement on its pumps. Wonder whether the public has a clue.

TM
 

Bob_Fout

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Tin Man said:
Wal*Mart was quoted by a national reporter a couple of years back as bragging that its customers are not as concerned about fuel additives and that it doesn't apparently put as many into its fuel. I stopped buying Wal*Mart fuel after that.

Kroger has an extra additive at extra cost button on their fuel pumps, with all of the usual claims, around where I live, but it also has a "fuel quality pledge" statement on its pumps. Wonder whether the public has a clue.

TM
Many people just gas n' go, with no real thought about the second most expensive item they'll buy, next to a house. (or 3rd next to a college education).
 

Thunderstruck

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The base fuel does not come from as many places as you might think, so you are dependent on the driver to do the right thing with additives. A number of years ago I was waiting on someone at Speedway, which is a discount kind of station. I watched as the tanker, which had finished filling them, drove down the street to the Shell station and turned in there.
 

Tin Man

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Thunderstruck said:
The base fuel does not come from as many places as you might think, so you are dependent on the driver to do the right thing with additives. A number of years ago I was waiting on someone at Speedway, which is a discount kind of station. I watched as the tanker, which had finished filling them, drove down the street to the Shell station and turned in there.
Its well accepted that usually base fuel is regional, additive is brand specific. I don't know if Shell, for example, changes its additive package to adapt to different regions but I would not be surprised.

TM
 
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Bob_Fout

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Tin Man said:
Newbies....

Please be aware that the only gasoline additive worth its price, Techron, also pollutes/damages engine oil performance, so when used, should be right before an oil change, and only if a problem exists . There is little thought put into possible side effects of aftermarket additives by anyone except automotive manufacturers all of whom specifically do not recommend aftermarket fuel additives (or oil additives for that matter) except Stanadyne for un-winterized diesel during very cold weather to prevent it from gelling.

TM
How is the Techron you buy different from the Techron Chevron adds to its gas?
 

Tin Man

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Bob_Fout said:
How is the Techron you buy different from the Techron Chevron adds to its gas?
Its the same thing. Apparently there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

The additive is designed as a treatment for an engine problem: namely deposits on valves and fuel injectors, or so I am told. It works by dissolving the deposits that are already there. It leeches into the oil, apparently, so the oil needs to be changed soon after.

The Techron already in the gasoline is not as concentrated and effectively prevents deposits on valves and fuel injectors (when the engine gets turned off the fuel evaporates on the injectors) - the premium fuel has more than the regular. Premium fuel is required by law to have enough additive to actually clean the fuel injectors, so usually there is more.

The chemical mechanism of how it works involves metal adhesion of the additive and displacement of the harmful deposits. This is why its important to stay with the same fuel additive since different additives will compete with each other as I understand this and have a lesser effect. Techron like other gasoline additives designed to keep valves and injectors clean actually coats them.

This is what I know from past reading and expert opinion as well as numerous anecdotal reports. I have also found it to be effective.

TM
 
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sgoldste01

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So I was at the VW dealership today to sign the paperwork for the Golf TDI I just ordered. I decided at the last minute that I wanted to add body side molding to my car (there was another customer picking up his TDI that had the molding, and I thought it looked good), so the salesperson took me to the parts department to buy the molding (they will install it before I take delivery).

Anyway, I was looking at the items they had on the shelf and noticed bottles of Stanadyne Performance Formula. I didn't ask about it, but thought it was interesting that the dealership stocks and sells it.
 

Tin Man

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sgoldste01 said:
So I was at the VW dealership today to sign the paperwork for the Golf TDI I just ordered. I decided at the last minute that I wanted to add body side molding to my car (there was another customer picking up his TDI that had the molding, and I thought it looked good), so the salesperson took me to the parts department to buy the molding (they will install it before I take delivery).

Anyway, I was looking at the items they had on the shelf and noticed bottles of Stanadyne Performance Formula. I didn't ask about it, but thought it was interesting that the dealership stocks and sells it.
VW recommends Stanadyne for un-winterized fuel to prevent gelling, so its not surprising.

TM
 

TedKurtz

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VW recommends Stanadyne diesel fuel conditioner

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before. This sounds like a fuel-quality issue. I have the Bentley 2005-2010 Jetta Service Manual. On page 20-4, Fuel Storage and Supply, it says:

"Volkswagen recommends the use of Stanadyne (TM) one shot performance formula all season diesel fuel conditioner. Add 8 oz. (235 ml) per 15 gallons(60 liters) of diesel fuel, directly to diesel fuel tank."

I think I'll do that. I also think I'll replace the fuel filter frequently. Regarding that, on Bentley page 03-32 it simply says replace the filter, and start the engine and check for leaks, with no mention of priming the fuel system. However, on page 20-30, under "Diesel fuel system, priming" it talks about the importance of priming it to avoid fuel-pump damage, and presents an elaborate procedure requiring special equipment to do it. I wonder if simply filling the oil-filter housing with fuel when replacing the fuel filter would be sufficient.

Ted

P.S. Tim Man commented on Stanadyne while I was writing this!
 
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sgoldste01

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For those of you who buy big bottles (for example, half-gallon) of additives, what's the easiest way to get it into the tank? Measuring cup and funnel?
 

itchytweed

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sgoldste01 said:
For those of you who buy big bottles (for example, half-gallon) of additives, what's the easiest way to get it into the tank? Measuring cup and funnel?
I dumped a 32 oz Sta-Bil Bottle and use that to dispense the PS that I use. For every 1/4 tank, I use one full load - even with the little fill tube.
 

Tin Man

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TedKurtz said:
I have the Bentley 2005-2010 Jetta Service Manual. On page 20-4, Fuel Storage and Supply, it says:

"Volkswagen recommends the use of Stanadyne (TM) one shot performance formula all season diesel fuel conditioner. Add 8 oz. (235 ml) per 15 gallons(60 liters) of diesel fuel, directly to diesel fuel tank."

I think I'll do that. I also think I'll replace the fuel filter frequently. Regarding that, on Bentley page 03-32 it simply says replace the filter, and start the engine and check for leaks, with no mention of priming the fuel system. However, on page 20-30, under "Diesel fuel system, priming" it talks about the importance of priming it to avoid fuel-pump damage, and presents an elaborate procedure requiring special equipment to do it. I wonder if simply filling the oil-filter housing with fuel when replacing the fuel filter would be sufficient.

Ted

P.S. Tim Man commented on Stanadyne while I was writing this!
This is news. Trouble is, we haven't heard any direct quote from official VW owners manuals or workshop manuals on this board as I would expect if it was true, by now. Bentley's is, however, a very respected source. GM has had a proprietary diesel additive for a while, so maybe other manufacturers will be getting on board. Don't know.

The accepted way to change the fuel filter is to fill it with diesel or with additive so that air doesn't get into the system.

TM
 
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MacBuckeye

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fuel filter change

"The accepted way to change the fuel filter is to fill it with diesel or with additive so that air doesn't get into the system."
TM

When I watched the serivce tech perform my 20K, I didn't notice anything special when he changed out the fuel filter. I'm almost certain all he did was slide the new filter down in the filter housing, replace all the gaskets, put the cap on, and that was it. No "pre-wetting" so to speak. I have not had any problems with the way he changed it. Getting the air out makes sense, but how crucial is it? Perhaps the fuel system bleeds the air out somehow before it get's to the injectors? Sorry to hi-jack this from fuel additives to fuel filters change, but I'm just piggy backing on previous threads. :D
 

fnord

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sgoldste01 said:
For those of you who buy big bottles (for example, half-gallon) of additives, what's the easiest way to get it into the tank? Measuring cup and funnel?
Agree with itchytweed. I only use sta-bil in the lawnmower can, so I emptied the stabil into another container (well labelled, of course) and put PS into the nifty bottle.

Here's a photo of the stuff so you can see how the bottle dispenses 1 oz with a little strategic squeezin :)
 

nj1266

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GTIDan said:
From everything I've been able to dig up California diesel pretty much fits the definition of premium. I've contacted Conoco/Phillips, Chevron and ARCO and all of them claim their lubricity is at/below or close to the European standard.

For me. VW Say's 'don't use um' and I don't but I do purchase my fuel from any of the above companies.

I live and work in Southern California so my driving is a combination of freeway and city streets with lots of 'rush hour' type driving thrown in. I have just under 6,000 miles on the clock. My last tank of fuel took me 513 miles and required 12.475 gallons. You do the math. (hint, over 40 mpg).

As you can see from my 'fuelly site' I'm inching up the chart and I expect to break into the 37 mpg ladder after my next fuel up.
I live in SoCal too and my commute is from Long Beach to Fullerton and back.

I am still on my first tank of diesel that the dealer filled. I have yet to fill my Golf TDI. I am so confused about all this additive business and the back and forth of using it or not using it.

Which diesel brand do you use the most? Do you frequent the same station? Is it at a major intersection to improve turnover of the diesel?

Thanks
 

sgoldste01

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Perfect

fnord said:
Agree with itchytweed. I only use sta-bil in the lawnmower can, so I emptied the stabil into another container (well labelled, of course) and put PS into the nifty bottle.

Here's a photo of the stuff so you can see how the bottle dispenses 1 oz with a little strategic squeezin :)
Now that bottle looks like a perfect solution. Thanks for sharing it.

Did you do anything special to clean the residual Sta-Bil out of the bottle before putting in your diesel additive?
 

Tin Man

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nj1266 said:
I live in SoCal too and my commute is from Long Beach to Fullerton and back.

I am still on my first tank of diesel that the dealer filled. I have yet to fill my Golf TDI. I am so confused about all this additive business and the back and forth of using it or not using it.

Which diesel brand do you use the most? Do you frequent the same station? Is it at a major intersection to improve turnover of the diesel?

Thanks
Just follow what your owner's manual says. Use only manufacturer approved products. The same goes for engine oil, coolant, windshield washer fluid, etc. and surprisingly, those on this board that would put XYZ into their tank comply with manufacturer specs for other fluids.

If you do choose to use an additive, it looks like it should be Stanadyne. They are a diesel fuel pump producer and apparently VW recommends their products. If it does make a difference in longevity, and you take good care of the car, and you have average luck, the benefit may not occur in your lifetime. It may take 200 people putting in additive at 8 oz a tankful ($$$) 300,000 miles each to save one fuel pump. Or maybe not. We don't have the statistical data to support the additive maker claims as to what extent the benefits are or even proof that the benefits exist.

Most would agree to use a brand name fuel (more likely to have proper advanced additive in it already - and they all are required by law) at a station that has high turnover (less chance of getting contaminated fuel).

All this shouldn't be a big deal. Diesel fuel, even ULSD, is still oil. Unlike gasoline, it lubricates. The reports of fuel pump failures, although common with pre-direct injection modern fuel pumps (and not attributed to fuel but complexity and poor design), are few and far between. Fleet operators of heavy trucks do not generally use aftermarket additives. Its really OK to just enjoy your ride and cash in the savings.

TM
 
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