506.01 0W-30 vs Other 5W-40 PD Oils
- Thread starter Kier
- Start date
DesertV10
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- TDI
- 2006 V10
And you have successfully demonstrated this to the dealers? There is another thread about a dealer claiming to void warranty by using owner supplied 506 01 oil instead of 505 01. I'm not defending that dealer but the situation happened. Until the dealers get with the program it seems we are stuck.
OR we do our OWN oil changesDesertV10 said:
thread on the VOID http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=152027&highlight=owner+supplied+506+01
-
tditom
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Location
- Jackson, MI
- TDI
- formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Do yourself a big favor and research 505.01 vs. 506.01 attributes. You won't take long to come to the conclusion that the latter is the only oil for your very expensive tdi. The other thread you referenced was for the 1.9L tdi, not your exotic engine. I've not heard of the dealers insisting on Touraeg owners using 505.01. If this is the case, I urge you to contact VAG and have them set VWoA (and the N. American dealership network) straight on the requirements for your engine. This is serious stuff!!DesertV10 said:
tditom said:Do yourself a big favor and research 505.01 vs. 506.01 attributes. You won't take long to come to the conclusion that the latter is the only oil for your very expensive tdi. The other thread you referenced was for the 1.9L tdi, not your exotic engine. I've not heard of the dealers insisting on Touraeg owners using 505.01. If this is the case, I urge you to contact VAG and have them set VWoA (and the N. American dealership network) straight on the requirements for your engine. This is serious stuff!!
Agreed http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1458192#post1458192
-
Kier
Veteran Member
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- Location
- Trenton NJ
- TDI
- 2006.5 Jetta Limited Diesel Edition, DSG, Reflex Silver/Anthracite
BEWARE! I would watch them carefully and make sure they don't put any additives in your engine along with the oil. They have been know to throw a bottle of their oil additives and charge you extra. I would also clearly state that they are not to overfill your engine when they add the oil. They do a high number of oil changes every week and could care less if the quality of your oil change is good or bad.tditom said:
DesertV10
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- TDI
- 2006 V10
Tom, Take it easy. Let's look at the history of the V10 TDI. I believe it went into production in 2003 for sale in 2004 models in Europe and other countries. That means development took place starting at least a couple of years before 2003. I believe I read, could be wrong, that the 505 01 spec was published in 2000. The 506 01 came later after the development of the V10. I don't think you can say the manual printed in 2005 is wrong to specify 505 01, just as I said before, outdated. It was the spec at the time and the engine will be fine with it. I have several friends with 2004 models and their engines aren't having any problem with 505 01. Is 506 01 better? It probably is, oil standards are always improving. Also we are on a relatively short fixed oil change schedule, not the extended drain interval so 505 01 probably holds up fine. I'm just not going to pick a fight with my dealer at the moment. VAG will eventally set VWOA straight.
wny_pat
Top Post Dawg
505.01 was created in 1998.
506.01 was created in 2001.
506.01 is required for the V10 TDI regardless of what the owners manual says. They made a mistake in printing it, just like they did in the PD manual when it first came out here in the U.S. The biggest problem is that VWofA seems to be on their own page when it comes to oil. They don't care what their parent company says. This issue has the possible makings of a great lawsuit someday.
506.01 was created in 2001.
506.01 is required for the V10 TDI regardless of what the owners manual says. They made a mistake in printing it, just like they did in the PD manual when it first came out here in the U.S. The biggest problem is that VWofA seems to be on their own page when it comes to oil. They don't care what their parent company says. This issue has the possible makings of a great lawsuit someday.
raybo
Veteran Member
It is possible that because 506.01 is an "energy conserving" oil and 505.01 and the newer 507 oils are not, that VW felt that any improvement in the Toureg MPG rating would be helpful - that it might reduce complaints.
Ray
Ray
dieseldorf
Top Post Dawg
DesertV10
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- TDI
- 2006 V10
Thanks for the correct dates, wny pat. Like you said, it will interesting someday to see if VW printed manuals incorrectly year after year. Does anyone have a manual from a 2007 (mine is a 2006) to see what those say? I did look at some of the German oil websites and they seem to sell both types for the Pump Duse engines without mentioning the V10 specifically.
mine is an 2007 OM but it was printed in 04/2006. For the V10 -- Book 3.3, page 38. Page 39 states that "although other brands have the same viscoity rating (5w-40), they do NOT conform to the (minimum = mine added) rating of the 505.01."
leicaman
Top Post Dawg
I would suggest you contact VWOA and or VAG to really get something in writing of some kind on this one.
SUNRG
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
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- Location
- Roanoke, VA
- TDI
- None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
[the following is strictly my opinion] - the V10 will be 100% fine using 505.01 at 10k OCIs. you will enjoy increased performance if 506.01 is used. i think 506.01 is exclusively prescribed for the V10 to mitigate its fuel thirstyness. cheers!
tditom
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Location
- Jackson, MI
- TDI
- formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
But Rob, these certainly don't read like its only an option:SUNRG said:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/529/39688taschenkarte.jpgMotul Specific said:
Is there something about the longer camshaft used in these motors that make 506.01 a REQUIREMENT?
dieseldorf
Top Post Dawg
I will speculate, along with eveyone else, that they (VAG) want the most robust oil available due to the fuel consumption (litres/hour) and related soot-loading of the engine oil.
Why doesn't someone drop a note to the nice folks in Germany and ask why 505.01 is not recommended?
You do not need to waste your time querying VWoA. You will never get an appropriate response from them as they are not familiar with the product (Touareg V10).
Why doesn't someone drop a note to the nice folks in Germany and ask why 505.01 is not recommended?
You do not need to waste your time querying VWoA. You will never get an appropriate response from them as they are not familiar with the product (Touareg V10).
Last edited:
will be calling VW-AG today regarding this 506.01 for the V10 TDI (with &/or without)DPF
cf. VAG Deutschland Contacts
http://www.volkswagen-ag.de/english/docs/7-ContactUs.html
-
Customer Inquiries
Company and Product Information
Tel:
or
E-mail: 00 800-VOLKSWAGEN
00 800-8 655 792 436
+49 (0)1802-VOLKSWAGEN
+49 (0)1802-8 655 792
dialogcenter@volkswagen.de
or for Car Service: Tel:
or 00 800-VWSERVICE
00 800-897 378 423
+49 (0)1802-VWSERVICE
+49 (0)1802-897 378 423
cf. VAG Deutschland Contacts
http://www.volkswagen-ag.de/english/docs/7-ContactUs.html
-
Customer Inquiries
Company and Product Information
or
E-mail: 00 800-VOLKSWAGEN
00 800-8 655 792 436
+49 (0)1802-VOLKSWAGEN
+49 (0)1802-8 655 792
dialogcenter@volkswagen.de
or for Car Service: Tel:
or 00 800-VWSERVICE
00 800-897 378 423
+49 (0)1802-VWSERVICE
+49 (0)1802-897 378 423
Last edited:
dieseldorf
Top Post Dawg
the 506.01 oil requirement is mandatory with or without extended drain interval AND with or without DPF.
Go back and look at the chart - - it's quite clear.
Go back and look at the chart - - it's quite clear.
Last edited:
wny_pat
Top Post Dawg
I think I already know what their answer will be. They will reply something like "since 506.01 is not widely available in North America........".
But we know where to find this "not widely available 506.01"!
But we know where to find this "not widely available 506.01"!
So are we going to get the LETTER "text" that Elf mentioned they had from VAG ?
Just to confirm and for you to understand our products don’t comply with VW specs we went through all the testing that VW requires for each one of our products. We have letters from VW for each one of our products confirming this (attached letter from VW WOLFSBURG for EVOLUTION CRV 506.01) cf. Voided warranty using 506.01 oil
This would be great.
Still trying to get through to VAG in DE
Just to confirm and for you to understand our products don’t comply with VW specs we went through all the testing that VW requires for each one of our products. We have letters from VW for each one of our products confirming this (attached letter from VW WOLFSBURG for EVOLUTION CRV 506.01) cf. Voided warranty using 506.01 oil
This would be great.
Still trying to get through to VAG in DE
DesertV10
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- TDI
- 2006 V10
I'm thinking that with the new V10s the first two oil changes are only 5k miles apart (5k and 10k) that if only 505 01 oil is used it should be OK for the 5k. By the time the 10k comes up hopefully VW will have resolved this question, but that could be wishful thinking since this has gone on since 2004.
506.01 -- It is!!!
I have some info from ELF. I contacted Elf today and was given this info:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
First the email exchange:
Hi C,
First thank you for using ELF EVOLUTION CRV 0W30 it is an excellent choice, without doubt the best product available on the market today for VW TDI engines.
The 506.01 is a more recent spec than 505.01 (505.01 created in 1998 – 506.01 from 2001), 506.01 goes through much tougher tests than 505.01 (3 VW tests for 505.01, 11 tests for 506.01).
Below is an email exchange from the beginning of 2005 with VW Team leader Powertrain in Detroit, when customers like you in the US, were starting to require the best product available: ELF EVOLUTION CRV 0W30 506.01
QUESTION: From TOTAL USA to VW Team leader Powertrain:
Hi,
We are continuing to get now more requests for our 506.01 0W30 oil, mostly from PD TDI fans who know it is the oil recommended in Europe. We are reluctant to serve these requests as the 505.01 is recommended at this point in North America, but not the 506.01.
What would be the attitude of VW of America regarding warranty for someone using the 506.01 oil?
Can I send you some samples of ELF CRV 506.01 for reference (attached is a technical data sheet)?
RESPONSE: From VW Team leader Powertrain to TOTAL USA:
Hi Hervé:
Since we do not have variable oil-change intervals in North America we do not require customers to use 506 01 oils (availability is also an issue). If customers want to use it but adhere to our recommended oil-change intervals it should not be a problem if the engine require some warranty work. However, they should keep all receipts and document the date and mileage of the oil changes. Also, for warranty and extended warranty issues VW requires that the vehicle maintenance is performed by a state-licensed facilities, so this might pose a problem for the "do-it-yourselfers" customers. I hope this answers your questions.
Regards
VW Team leader Powertrain
As you can see VW USA will have a hard time refusing any Warranty because a customer is using a product better than what is required, again 506.01 is the stronger and better product than any 505.01 on the market.
Just to confirm and for you to understand our products don’t comply with VW specs we went through all the testing that VW requires for each one of our products. We have letters from VW for each one of our products confirming this (attached letter from VW WOLFSBURG for EVOLUTION CRV 506.01)
Attached are 2 document, one presenting the evolution of VW specs since 1997 and a document presenting the different test 505.01 and 506.01 needs to go through.
If you would like to talk about this in greater detail give me a call. You should also ask your VW dealer to check with VW Headquarters to confirm this. It should clarify the situation very quickly.
I hope this is helpful.
My best,
---------------------------------------------------------
Herb KAEMMER, Marketing Manager
Automotive Division
TOTAL Lubricants USA, Inc.
5 North Stiles Street, Linden, NJ 07036 USA
877.353.6457 (877.ELF.OILS)
Direct Line: 908.374.5057 FAX: 908.374.5230 herb.kaemmer@total-us.com
www.ElfMoto.com www.elf.com
The information contained in this e-mail is intended only for the personal and
confidential use of the recipient(s) named above. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify me immediately.
From: . : Logismoi : .
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:04 PM
To: Herb Kaemmer
Cc: . : Logismoi : .; Laurent Siret
Subject: VAG 506.01 Spec Oil
Importance: High
Elf Moto Division
TOTAL Lubricants USA, Inc.
5 North Stiles Street
Linden, NJ 07036
USA
908.862.9300 Phone
908.862.6885 Fax
Herb Kaemmer
Marketing Manager
herb.kaemmer@total-us.com
908.374.5057
Dear Sir,
I am an owner of a 2007 VW Touareg V10 TDI. There has been some confusion regarding the
SPEC Oil that is required by the Pumpe Duse TDI engines. We buy these engines for a reason.
There was mention that ELF has "approval" from VAG (Wolfsburg) to formulate an oil
that is 506.01 Elf Evolution CRV 0W-30 for the VW TDI PD engines.
I only would like to confirm that VAG did in fact APPROVE of the Elf CRV product for the
PD VW's.
Please reply ASAP.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Happy Owner of a
VW V10 Twin Turbo TDI
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We need a translator here:
VW 505.01 – 506.01 SPECS.
The level of specification for VW506.01 is very high, by far higher than the technology VW505.01.
Indeed VW505.01 is a spec from 1998 for standard drain intervals of 15000km, this product is today becoming an old technology that corresponds to driving constraints and engine technology of the past.
VW 503.00/506.00/506.01 on the other hand, is a recent spec 2000:
-Drain intervals of 30 000Km gas Engines
-50 000Km diesel engines
-Fuel economy (mini 2% shown on cycle MVEG)
-Compatible with the common rail (for the V engines) and especially the pump duse engine.
See below a comparison between the spec, it will show you that:
-The VW505.01 is largely below:
. No constraint in volatility, that doesn’t help oil consumption
. No constraint of stability with shearing (what presents a risk in wear).
Moreover in the VW 503.00/506.00/506.01 to pass some ultra critical tests such as VW RNT, which is very famous with manufacturers (supposed to be the most severe test of wear) a very robust additive package is necessary
The others very critical tests are the fleets and durability tests, they are a lot longer and a lot tougher than the 505.01 tests.
For your information and your dealer info:
VW 505.01 goes through 3 VW Tests
VW 506.01 goes through 11 VW Tests, as shown below:
pdf file:
ELF EvolutionCRV 0W-30 Results
Power Point Presentation:
VW_specs -_RNT_Test_2005.ppt
=====================================================
Hope this info helps us all!
Logismoi
I have some info from ELF. I contacted Elf today and was given this info:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
First the email exchange:
Hi C,
First thank you for using ELF EVOLUTION CRV 0W30 it is an excellent choice, without doubt the best product available on the market today for VW TDI engines.
The 506.01 is a more recent spec than 505.01 (505.01 created in 1998 – 506.01 from 2001), 506.01 goes through much tougher tests than 505.01 (3 VW tests for 505.01, 11 tests for 506.01).
Below is an email exchange from the beginning of 2005 with VW Team leader Powertrain in Detroit, when customers like you in the US, were starting to require the best product available: ELF EVOLUTION CRV 0W30 506.01
QUESTION: From TOTAL USA to VW Team leader Powertrain:
Hi,
We are continuing to get now more requests for our 506.01 0W30 oil, mostly from PD TDI fans who know it is the oil recommended in Europe. We are reluctant to serve these requests as the 505.01 is recommended at this point in North America, but not the 506.01.
What would be the attitude of VW of America regarding warranty for someone using the 506.01 oil?
Can I send you some samples of ELF CRV 506.01 for reference (attached is a technical data sheet)?
RESPONSE: From VW Team leader Powertrain to TOTAL USA:
Hi Hervé:
Since we do not have variable oil-change intervals in North America we do not require customers to use 506 01 oils (availability is also an issue). If customers want to use it but adhere to our recommended oil-change intervals it should not be a problem if the engine require some warranty work. However, they should keep all receipts and document the date and mileage of the oil changes. Also, for warranty and extended warranty issues VW requires that the vehicle maintenance is performed by a state-licensed facilities, so this might pose a problem for the "do-it-yourselfers" customers. I hope this answers your questions.
Regards
VW Team leader Powertrain
As you can see VW USA will have a hard time refusing any Warranty because a customer is using a product better than what is required, again 506.01 is the stronger and better product than any 505.01 on the market.
Just to confirm and for you to understand our products don’t comply with VW specs we went through all the testing that VW requires for each one of our products. We have letters from VW for each one of our products confirming this (attached letter from VW WOLFSBURG for EVOLUTION CRV 506.01)
Attached are 2 document, one presenting the evolution of VW specs since 1997 and a document presenting the different test 505.01 and 506.01 needs to go through.
If you would like to talk about this in greater detail give me a call. You should also ask your VW dealer to check with VW Headquarters to confirm this. It should clarify the situation very quickly.
I hope this is helpful.
My best,
---------------------------------------------------------
Herb KAEMMER, Marketing Manager
Automotive Division
TOTAL Lubricants USA, Inc.
5 North Stiles Street, Linden, NJ 07036 USA
877.353.6457 (877.ELF.OILS)
Direct Line: 908.374.5057 FAX: 908.374.5230 herb.kaemmer@total-us.com
www.ElfMoto.com www.elf.com
The information contained in this e-mail is intended only for the personal and
confidential use of the recipient(s) named above. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify me immediately.
From: . : Logismoi : .
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:04 PM
To: Herb Kaemmer
Cc: . : Logismoi : .; Laurent Siret
Subject: VAG 506.01 Spec Oil
Importance: High
Elf Moto Division
TOTAL Lubricants USA, Inc.
5 North Stiles Street
Linden, NJ 07036
USA
908.862.9300 Phone
908.862.6885 Fax
Herb Kaemmer
Marketing Manager
herb.kaemmer@total-us.com
908.374.5057
Dear Sir,
I am an owner of a 2007 VW Touareg V10 TDI. There has been some confusion regarding the
SPEC Oil that is required by the Pumpe Duse TDI engines. We buy these engines for a reason.
There was mention that ELF has "approval" from VAG (Wolfsburg) to formulate an oil
that is 506.01 Elf Evolution CRV 0W-30 for the VW TDI PD engines.
I only would like to confirm that VAG did in fact APPROVE of the Elf CRV product for the
PD VW's.
Please reply ASAP.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Happy Owner of a
VW V10 Twin Turbo TDI
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We need a translator here:
VW 505.01 – 506.01 SPECS.
The level of specification for VW506.01 is very high, by far higher than the technology VW505.01.
Indeed VW505.01 is a spec from 1998 for standard drain intervals of 15000km, this product is today becoming an old technology that corresponds to driving constraints and engine technology of the past.
VW 503.00/506.00/506.01 on the other hand, is a recent spec 2000:
-Drain intervals of 30 000Km gas Engines
-50 000Km diesel engines
-Fuel economy (mini 2% shown on cycle MVEG)
-Compatible with the common rail (for the V engines) and especially the pump duse engine.
See below a comparison between the spec, it will show you that:
-The VW505.01 is largely below:
. No constraint in volatility, that doesn’t help oil consumption
. No constraint of stability with shearing (what presents a risk in wear).
Moreover in the VW 503.00/506.00/506.01 to pass some ultra critical tests such as VW RNT, which is very famous with manufacturers (supposed to be the most severe test of wear) a very robust additive package is necessary
The others very critical tests are the fleets and durability tests, they are a lot longer and a lot tougher than the 505.01 tests.
For your information and your dealer info:
VW 505.01 goes through 3 VW Tests
VW 506.01 goes through 11 VW Tests, as shown below:
pdf file:
ELF EvolutionCRV 0W-30 Results
Power Point Presentation:
VW_specs -_RNT_Test_2005.ppt
=====================================================
Hope this info helps us all!
Logismoi
AndyH
Registered Vendor , w/Business number
Analysis/Questions...
- Where did you ask the question about what oil to use in your V10 TDI? You said you owned a Touareg, but asked if CRV was certified by VW?
- We have learned that 505.01 has been updated as recently as July 2005. That makes it newer than 506.01?!
- The volatility comment is misleading. 505.01 clearly is built on 502.00, 505.00, and underpinning ACEA specs and it inherits their properties unless modified. 502 and 505 both allow 15%. That 2% isn't much.
- Until someone convinces VWoA to recognize 506.0x, 'best product' is empty sales language -- the folks that hold the warranty purse strings don't agree.
- VW doesn't say 506.0x is better - the oil company does.
- 506.0x is only fuel saving because it is compared to 15W-40 reference oil in the testing. Anyone's 0W/5W-30 will save fuel under those conditions. Note that, according to Afton Chemical, 506.0x doesn't require the PV 1451 Fuel Economy test.
- 505.01 has a MINIMUM HTHS requirement, while 506.0x has a MAXIMUM. 505.01 doesn't have to be required to 'stay in grade' because some normal shear in service will still leave it in stronger shape than 506.0x in service.
edits: Finished fuel economy thought...added chart. bloody senior moment...
- Where did you ask the question about what oil to use in your V10 TDI? You said you owned a Touareg, but asked if CRV was certified by VW?
- We have learned that 505.01 has been updated as recently as July 2005. That makes it newer than 506.01?!
- The volatility comment is misleading. 505.01 clearly is built on 502.00, 505.00, and underpinning ACEA specs and it inherits their properties unless modified. 502 and 505 both allow 15%. That 2% isn't much.
- Until someone convinces VWoA to recognize 506.0x, 'best product' is empty sales language -- the folks that hold the warranty purse strings don't agree.
- VW doesn't say 506.0x is better - the oil company does.
- 506.0x is only fuel saving because it is compared to 15W-40 reference oil in the testing. Anyone's 0W/5W-30 will save fuel under those conditions. Note that, according to Afton Chemical, 506.0x doesn't require the PV 1451 Fuel Economy test.
- 505.01 has a MINIMUM HTHS requirement, while 506.0x has a MAXIMUM. 505.01 doesn't have to be required to 'stay in grade' because some normal shear in service will still leave it in stronger shape than 506.0x in service.
edits: Finished fuel economy thought...added chart. bloody senior moment...
Last edited:
tditom
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Location
- Jackson, MI
- TDI
- formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Andy-
I'm not sure I understand the reason behind your questions regarding 506.01 meeting the 505.01 requirements.
The chart in German shows that the 506.01 oil is intended for "long-life service" on the PD motors. The 505.01 is for normal drain intervals. Isn't it implicit that 506.01 is equal to or better than 505.01 because it lasts up to 3x as long when used in the same engine? Do you disagree? If the answer is yes, please explain the chart to me. TIA.
I'm not sure I understand the reason behind your questions regarding 506.01 meeting the 505.01 requirements.
The chart in German shows that the 506.01 oil is intended for "long-life service" on the PD motors. The 505.01 is for normal drain intervals. Isn't it implicit that 506.01 is equal to or better than 505.01 because it lasts up to 3x as long when used in the same engine? Do you disagree? If the answer is yes, please explain the chart to me. TIA.
tditom
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Location
- Jackson, MI
- TDI
- formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Logismoi-
I still have the same question as the other thread that contains the response from the Elf distributor- Is the following sentence confusing to anyone else but me? (bold & red for emphasis)
The letter simply states that the Elf product meets the 506.01 requirements and can be labeled as such.
Questions:
Where did the text after the acceptance letter come from?
Any luck getting through to someone at VAG?
I still have the same question as the other thread that contains the response from the Elf distributor- Is the following sentence confusing to anyone else but me? (bold & red for emphasis)
Is this just a carelessly typed sentence?
The letter simply states that the Elf product meets the 506.01 requirements and can be labeled as such.
Questions:
Where did the text after the acceptance letter come from?
Any luck getting through to someone at VAG?