ALH TDI engine transplant into '84 Vanagon

Andy, great pictures. The longer supplied bolt is to allow you to slide the head back further without dislodging the parts inside. The cooked O ring is odd. That was the easy part of my reseal. I was more concerned about the top and the pin fitting into the slide.

I have my IQ set to stock in the software and used the hammer mod to get rid of my SDS problem. That way, if needed I still have some adjustment within the software.

Not sure why you are having problems with the system losing prime or hard starting. I actually T'd in my espar heater to the banjo bolt on the outlet of the filter. Even with the heater connected, no problems with air/siphon etc. mark

Andy, have you tried playing around with Adaption channel 5 in VCDS? See what it is in your Jetta and compare with the Vanagon. Channel 5 is documented to change the amount of fuel it injects while cranking.

Jon, I just now checked Channel 5 in adaptations ... Start Fuel Injection Quantity is 25.5 mg/str. I haven't checked my car yet.

Today, it was hard to start. And, I got a DTC/CEL. P1246, Needle Lift Sensor (G80), Implausible Signal-Intermittent.

So, that could be the problem or something to do with me being into the IP doing the re-seal.

Has anyone determined what N214 is? I cannot find that in any of the wiring schematics. If you recall, I had a CEL relating to that device.

Well, the start Fuel Injection Quantity is 27.0 on my Jetta. And, oddly, I connected back to the Vanagon with VCDS to check more stuff and noticed that the start FIQ had dropped from 25.5 to 24.0. .........engine temp is 87.3c.....fully warmed-up.

In channel 05 of Adaption, I cannot seem to raise or lower the start FIQ. I did log-in using 12233 then went to Adaption. Seems I can change other things but not the start FIQ in either vehicle.

So, what's the method to change start FIQ?

The timing is about 50% above the center line in the graph ......very acceptable! (correct engine group selected)

Any other thoughts before I have to purchase a new starter .............LOL?

On a subject I mentioned several posts back, the "rattle" in the engine is still there. I've come to the conclusion that it is in the Timing Belt path .......like roller bearings, water pump, tensioner .........? I guess a new TB kit will put that theory to rest.

the needle lift sensor code is troubling....you may want to check all the wiring on number three.....also have you tried unplugging the coolant temp sensor to see if it starts any quicker?....shouldn't be an issue since your coolant temp seems normal but it's worth a shot...is the temp sensor green or black?....

Cts

jimbote said:

the needle lift sensor code is troubling....you may want to check all the wiring on number three.....also have you tried unplugging the coolant temp sensor to see if it starts any quicker?....shouldn't be an issue since your coolant temp seems normal but it's worth a shot...is the temp sensor green or black?....

Click to expand...

Jimmy, when I was doing the conversion, I installed a new green Coolant Temp Sensor. The temp gauge never goes above about the 10:30 position. So, I re-installed the old Tem Sensor....same results. I also checked it with VCDS before switching back. VCDS and ScanGauge show the temp on the road to be at or near 190F, even though the gauge in the cluster shows about 10:30.......not straight up at 190F.

This afternoon, I did a quick pressure wash of the engine (cold engine) and blew it off with compressed air. Then I started the engine and let it idle for half hour or longer. I did stop and start it several times .... rather long cranks each time! The DTC never did come back. This morning it did not start immediately. In fact, it took several attempts and the battery was getting weak. So, I added an extra battery with booster cables and charger to get it started. I'm wondering if the battery getting weak caused the Lift Needle DTC to show up?

Well, this evening, I installed three different batteries and they all started it with long crank intervals. So, I don't think it is a battery or starter issue. Something is going on with fuel injection. I've had old IDI engines to fire-up when they sounded like they were cranking less than 100 rpms ..... catch just about the time I would think the battery was gone!

This machine is not going to whip me

Have you considered a lift pump to keep the IP primed?
It sounds like your IP is having to re-prime itself every start.

Andy two things. For some reason VW put the diesel starter battery back by the engine in the Vanagon, probably for two reasons. The larger diesel battery would not fit under the front seats and less cable run would mean less voltage drop for faster easier starts.

Second, you mentioned the voltage dropping on the pump switch with the key on only. That just does not sound correct. For a test, I would suggest disconnecting the starter from the vanagon's electrical system temporarily and using a second battery for the starter and a remote starter button. This will isolate the starter load from your ECU electronics. Ideally you would have 12.9 volts available to the engine electronics while cranking. Anything less is expected down to maybe 10.6 volts, but that is not so ideal. mark

P.S. I have no check valve or lift/supply pump. Trouble free for 20K miles. Knock wood.

The older diesels were actually harder to crank than a TDI would be, too. They also had a much longer preglow period, and a much less efficient starter motor.

oilhammer said:

The older diesels were actually harder to crank than a TDI would be, too. They also had a much longer preglow period, and a much less efficient starter motor.

Click to expand...

I installed a Tdi 01m starter along with Tdi battery cables and an optima redtop on my TD caddy and it would spin fast enough to skip the glows on cool mornings .... Best mki/mkii starter upgrade ever imho !

oilhammer said:

The older diesels were actually harder to crank than a TDI would be, too. They also had a much longer preglow period, and a much less efficient starter motor.

Click to expand...

All true, but Andy has an unusual problem with his vanagon conversion. Earlier he mentioned the voltage drop at the fuel pump switch. While the 12 foot battery cable may not have any impact on starting, my suggestion was to eliminate starter amp draw as a possibility. I recall him getting power for the ECU etc from the starter solenoid. I could be wrong. Troubleshooting problems sometimes requires a process of elimination to get to the root of the problem. My vanagon was a diesel originally, so the battery is in the stock location. All power for my ECU etc comes directly from the battery positive terminal. I have not had any starting problems. I am also using the original diesel type starter, nothing from the future.

To Andy, which ignition switch actually cranks the engine? The stock vanagon switch can cause all sorts of odd symptoms. If you are using the TDI ignition switch, where does it get it's power? How is it connected to the starter? mark

@ >> Danielg42...... I just did a pump re-seal and installed a in-line fuel check-valve near the fuel tank (see pics back on page 52). Also, when I opened the Injection Pump to do the re-seal, it was "full" of diesel fuel. The vehicle had been sitting over 6 hours. So, in my opinion, the IP is not having to re-prime at each start-up. However, that is a good point for sure.

Yes, Oilhammer, I've started old IDI engines when I never expected them to fire-up.

My set-up is using a Starter from the vintage days of the 1982 Vanagon Diesel era. However, it is a very newly re-manufacted Bosch unit. Before installing, I disassembled it to see inside ......new brushes, very slick amature, etc. Actually, it really spins the engine fast..... the RPM on the tach appears to go above 500!

I think Mark is onto something. I forgot about the voltage drop at the fuel shut-off valve on the IP. That showed up when we were bleeding the fuel lines for the first start-up. I need to re-check that.

The main positive cable from the battery goes directly to the starter solenoid as with OE. I have a main cable going from there to the fuse panel that's normally on top of a Jetta/Golf/NB battery top. The ALT high voltage wire goes to the Fuse Panel like OE for the Jetta/Golf/NB. From there, all the wiring is the same as for the OE of a Jetta/Golf/NB.

The Vanagon "load reduction" relay cuts all power to non-starting circuits during the Starting mode as with OE..... the coil wire circuit is not included, obviously.

The vehicle is Started with the Vanagon ignition switch. The positive wire for the gasser coil provides power to the ALH ignition switch (behind the dash, short run of wire). In otherwords, the Vanagon ignition switch powers the TDI engine ignition switch. Both ignitions have to be ON to start the vehicle.....either will kill the engine if turned off.

Well, today I went to the tire shop and had my new wheels installed.....very pleased with the looks and the handling.

Rims from Van Cafe. Tires are Uniroyal Laredos 215/75/15

The engine started a little better today, with one exception.

Below are a few pics.

Andy - What year is the ECU?

Year model of ECU

rackaracka said:

Andy - What year is the ECU?

Click to expand...

All electricals for the ALH engine, including the Engine are from the same vehicle, 2002, Jetta!

Well, considering all the questions, suggestions and the tons of reading that I have done tonight through Google searches, I've come to the conclusion that my set-up may not be providing sufficient volts to the Engine electrical functions during the starting mode.

Tomorrow, I'll examine various options that I have in mind!

I heard you start up at 'fest, it did seem to crank the engine fast enough (it should crank a TDI faster than the IDI, as it has lower CR and probably less current draw on the glow system).

However, it is 100% normal to see down to 10.5V at the battery during cranking. Rule of thumb for pretty much any car, and ECUs in general start to wig out at about 9.6V.

What I heard sounded like a fuel prime problem.

Battery cable up-grade

Many BMW coupes from round 1990 have the battery in the trunk. They then have a 10-foot long 2-gauge cable up to the engine compartment.
(This is probably twice the cross section of the Vanagon cable)
Some have an additional 12-gauge cable run along side probably for the ECU. My local self-serve wrecking yard has a fixed price of around $3 for battery cables. So my TDI conversion will have one but I may have to shorten it.
It may be help for the starting problem.

if anyone is looking for good long battery cables look no further than jaguar xj6/8 ...they have the batteries in the trunk and have a very fat copper positive going all the way to the engine compartment

Today, around noon, I started the Van. It fired up almost immediately. However, 15 miles later, I made a stop for about 20 minutes. The start-up took about 15 to 20 seconds of cranking.....then bam, it fired-up! It was parked on a level lot and I have a 95% full tank of fuel.

To summarize, here are the things I have done thus far to address the hard starting.

-installed new battery (tried other known strong batteries)
-checked all connections for leaks from the IP to the fuel tank
-re-sealed the IP
-installed a check-valve in the fuel line near the fuel tank
-set Injection Quantity to 4.4
-checked timing (about 50% above center line in graph)
-checked mechanical timing
-re-visited my wiring schematics and compared to actual work
-checked ALT voltage output with VCDS

For those who may have missed it in my comments, when we first got this engine going, it was hard to start, even with the fuel hanging overhead like doing a diesel purge. And, be reminded, the IP did leak fuel at first but quit. Of course, since I did a re-seal, that's a mute point now.

@ >> Jet 02, the Vanagon actually has #10 gauge circuits from the positive post to handle on-board systems. The large positive cable to the starter is for that purpose and charging the battery via the ALT.

I do have an extra full length OE positive wire. However, I'm not sure installing two wires would be helpful since electrical current always takes the path of least resistance. The best effort to address the large positive cable would be to replace it with a larger wire.

I did not have time to do anything to the Van today........took on a radiator replacement job for a New Beetle!

hey Andy do you have another IP to swap out and try?....on my truck I had hard starting issues with an 11mm I had built....finally swapped it out for a 12mm I had also built and the hard starting was solved immediately and completely....

To the above couple posters about trunk mounted batteries: LOTS of cars with engines in the front have batteries in the rear. Many BMWs, MBs, Chrysler LX cars (which are loosely based on an MB platform), Miatas, some GM C & H body cars (later Bonnevilles, for example), Audi 5000s... the list goes on....

So long as the cable is of sufficient size, the location of a battery in an automobile is of no importance as a car, even a big car, cannot possibly have the starter so far away from the battery as to become an issue.

The reason diesel Vanagons got the battery located in the rear had nothing to do with its location relative to the starter. It had to do with the fact that the optional diesel battery simply would not FIT in the forward location, so they made them all rear mount. USA never got the optional big battery factory fitted in our T3s, however. It was typically an option for commercial use and in far northern areas in Europe. It stayed forward mounted in the boxer gas T3s simply because there was no room in the back for it to be placed, plus the battery along with the spare and fuel tank were part of the engineers' efforts to move some weight forward and lower to help the T3's weight distribution (it worked, their curb weight with driver is nearly 50/50, and they handle like a sports car in comparision to even the later T2s, even in crosswinds). The drawback of course was crappy traction when unloaded, something the syncro would address later, but I digress...

You may just have something amiss with your pump itself.

Oilhammer, thanks for the excellent explanation about the battery. I believe that should lay to rest the battery issue. However, as you pointed out, the "big battery" (and most likely correct battery), will not fit in the case under the seat.

Actually, I did purchase one the 94r batteries. It fit the case perfectly tight but was too tall.

Well, I know there will be starting issues with battery size come winter. So, I'm going to look into a second battery location to the right of the tranny. But, I done not believe this will solve the hard start issue that I'm experiencing.

No JimBote, I do not have an extra pump ......well, yes, I can always use the one from the wreck I'm putting back together. But, I'll do a little more circuit checking and follow Mark's advice on a "clear" fuel line before I do any pump changing. And, considering that there is a rattle that may be coming from the TB path, during the TB job will be an excellent time to change the IP.

The standard diesel T3 battery is the same as the gasser T3 battery, a 41. Like I said, we never got the optional big battery option for the diesel T3s here. All the part numbers have been superceded of course, but my best guess is that it would have been equivelent to the 94.

Since yours is a passenger van, you may consider placing one of the long, relatively thin Euro batteries like some of the bigger sedans and Sprinters use beneath your rear seat, with a vent tube hole/grommet through the floor.

But in any case, I do not think the battery is your problem. I've started plenty of ALH cars with very weak/wrong batteries that cranked slow but they still started. ALHs typically start pretty easy if everything else is in good working order.

Another reason I think it is a fueling issue is that while I watched you crank your Vanagon, there was not any smoke coming from the tailpipe. So if fuel was being injected but not combusting for whatever reason, it would have been puffing out some whitish smoke. There wasn't anything. Then when it did finally start, it just puffed a wee bit like normal and took off running fine.

I have seen some VE pumps leak air into the shaft seal when sitting. But once running seal works fine, no fuel wetness. Not easy to swap seal on alh ve as hub has to come off and get re-indexed using plunger lift indicator.

Some of the other seals could do the same: air in while sitting, seal when pressurized.

When you parked uphill, was fuel level above ve pump? Not sure where tank is on vanagon.

Worst case I think would be a whole reseal of pump. All seals.

Maybe try putting a fuel tank on the roof with supply and return connected, then leave overnight and see if start is good.

My alh had a weak batt last winter, it just barely lumped over the comp strokes, but still started in a few turns. So doubt starter rpm is culprit.

Maybe check that crank pos sensor is getting readin when cranking?

The pic below shows my fuel set-up when we first got the engine going. I left that set-up in place for several days.

The engine was a hard starter with the fuel hanging overhead.




Today, I was out and about in the van making several stops, as well as tonight. It did seem to start better, including the first start-up this morning. There was one long start episode.

So, I'm thinking maybe with more use it may improve. However, I do feel that it needs further evaluation to determine if there's anything else causing problems.

@ Ski n NC, there has never been a DTC relating to the crank position sensor. Also, the fuel tank on a vanagon is in the front down low just behind the front wheels.

As I mentioned previously and documented with pics, when I took the IP top off for the re-seal task, fuel ran out. The engine had been sitting over 6 hours. So, unless the top of the IP is supposed to be totally full of fuel at all times, I don't think this is a air leak issue. Also, in the YouTube HowTo about doing a re-seal, in clip 5 or 6, when the dudes from Diesel Geek were priming the IP (suction method) they made a comment that bubbles would keep coming out ......go ahead and start the fuel line bleeding (something to that affect).

It will be after the weekend of October 21st before I can get serious about doing the TB job or any serious things like changing IPs....... l'll be in route to Las Vagas on the 6th and return on the 20th.

Update on starting issues

Update on starting issues

Over the last five days I've used the Van almost everyday. I have experienced several long cranking episodes before the engine would start. However, I did experience numerous shorter cranking episodes with a few almost immediate start-ups. Fuel tank level or how the Van was sitting didn't seem to matter......could not see a pattern.

Anyway, this evening is the first time I've had an opportunity to look into the starting issues.

To my surprise, the Voltage at the IP fuel shut-off valve only hangs at or above 12 volts for a few seconds, then immediately drops in quick stages to 0. Yes, that was puzzling until I checked my Jetta .......same thing! And, the engine fired right up immediately, even though it has been sitting for a week (remember, 312k miles on that IP/Engine).

Anyway, I have a few pics of the voltages for you to look at: (All comments are at the top of each Photo)

In the pic below, the ignition has been turned ON for about 3 to 5 seconds.


In the pic below, the ignition has been ON for about 8 to 10 seconds


In the pic below, the ignition has been ON a little over 10 seconds


In the pic below, the engine has been running about 20 to 25 seconds, at idle.


A multi-meter shows the voltage at the Battery to be 14.2 at idle and so does the little LED meter. I suppose the longer leads to the rear and then back to the middle seat account for the 13.5 volts on the LED meter.

Well, I don't think the starting issue is an electrical problem at the fuel Shut-off valve.

I have another theory: The return fuel line could be siphoning the top of the IP down somewhat. And, as Mark (rsxsr) and others have suggested, there may be a comprised fuel line fitting that allows the siphoning affect that pulls the fuel level inside the IP down rather quick.

So, at Mark's suggestion, a clear fuel line needs to be installed to observe for bubbles........especially at the instant the engine is shut-down!

Watch your that volt meter next time you get a long crank. Watch while cranking.

Second that about temporary clear lines... Do both in and out.

Well, messing around with the "wiring central" under the back seat.......... touching something (wires, which one(s), causes the idle to bump-up a little then drop back..

So, I may have some electrical grimlins playing with me.

@ > Sky n NC, the voltage on the IP shut-off valve begins to climb during the start process immediately but doesn't go above 10 to 10.5..... I just checked that.

I'm going to hook up VAG COM to see if anything shows up there!

Andy - Interesting sleuthing. Hook up a temporary hot jumper lead to the fuel shutoff solenoid and start the van up. If this creates instant starts each time you try to start the car, you know you're on the right track.

I noticed that Air Mass Specified is 370 and actual is 535 .... at idle. Both numbers bounce around a little.

Does anyone see anything wrong with those numbers!