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TDI Conversions Discussions on converting non TDIs into TDIS. More general items can be answered better in other sections. This is ideal for issues that don't have an overlap and are very special to swaping engines.

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Old February 8th, 2006, 00:50   #1
greg123
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Default 1.9tdi in a 2.5tdi 5cyl

Greetings all, I'm not sure how similar the 1.9tdi and 2.5tdi engines are. I was wondering if the flywheel/bellhousing bolt pattern may well be the same, in which case what would be the feesability of putting a 1.9tdi in a vehicle (A6, Volvo V70) which had the 2.5tdi 5cyl motor in?

I'm after a tuned 1.9tdi for ease of working on and fuel economy, power won't be an issue half the 2.5tdi's are only 115bhp anyhow I can easily tune the 1.9 up past 2.5 levels. Also auto estate 1.9tdi's are rare, but many 2.5's are. So my idea was to pick a nice car such as the ultra safe ane well built Volvo V70, and replace the engine with the 1.9.

However if anyone knows if the engine will mate to the gearbox this will be a 'yes' or 'no' for my idea!

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Old February 8th, 2006, 09:55   #2
karlaudi
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This is a quick reply, so I have not done the research to anwser your question fully, but from memory.

A check of a VW / Audi ETKA parts catalog will provide the need cross referencing infomation and there are plenty for sale on eBay. I brough mine a few years ago on eBay Deutschland and had it sent to me.

I would agree that a 1.9 TDi is less expensive to service than a 2.5 TDi as the 1.9 is a four cylinder and the 2.5 a V6. But the cost of converting to the smaller motor I would think would far out weigh any maintenance savings. Especially when the cost of tuning a 2.5 TDi for improved power and economy is rather cheap from VW / Audi Tuners like Motoren-Technik-Meyer (M-T-M), for example.

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Old February 8th, 2006, 10:32   #3
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2.5 was also an I-5 IIRC.
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Old February 8th, 2006, 11:14   #4
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Yes, the TDI in the 1990 Audi 100 Avant (the first TDI ever) was a 2.5 I-5.

Anyone got a wrecked Audi 100 Avant TDI lying around, and an Audi 5000 (preferably TD) that chewed a timing belt?
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Old February 8th, 2006, 17:51   #5
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I have been told that the bolt pattern on the trans end of the 4 cylinder engines is different than the bolt pattern shared by the 5 cylinder inline and the VR6 engine, so a 1.9 TDI will not bolt up to the five cylinder trans.

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Old February 8th, 2006, 19:08   #6
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I have heard the bolt patterns were different as well, but then again I thought that the diesel vw/volvo 5 cyl. was not a tdi so you probably should not listen to me.
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Old February 9th, 2006, 00:26   #7
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Isn't the diesel in the V70 Volvo's own? In that case you might have less trouble transplanting the lump out of a V40, more chance of looms etc being common.
Early V40s are Renault powered like the 440 I believe, but the latest ones I dunno. Is it Volvo's variant of the Ford/PSA HDI unit?
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Old February 9th, 2006, 11:02   #8
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The 850/V70 had the 140bhp version of the 5cyl VW 2.5tdi. If anyone knows of information how to tune that engine to perform mpg like the 1.9tdi let me know - all my experience has lead me to believe it's at least 10mpg behind (the A4 & A6 have both engines and I'm pretty sure the 2.5 sups a lot more juice for the same driving style). If some chips/advanced timing can yeild a huge improvement I'd be interested.

The 440 was an idi 1.9td, the V40 later had a common rail renault 1.9dci which by all accounts was a cracking motor, liked by the Volvo techs more than the Peugeot 2.0hdi that ford put in it later.

I was particularly interested in the V70 as I like the car, huge - very safe, incredibly well built, no common faults. to the extent the garages call them boring. But I like the VW 4cyl tdi engine for it's performance and the possibility of mating it up to the auto from the 2.5.

But i guess if the bolt pattern is different then it's a no go idea! Maybe an A6 1.9tdi estate, but the boot isn't as big/insurance/no sips etc etc. Also I need an auto.

Any more thoughts appreciated, it's not looking promising so far.

Greg.

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Originally Posted by DPM
Isn't the diesel in the V70 Volvo's own? In that case you might have less trouble transplanting the lump out of a V40, more chance of looms etc being common.
Early V40s are Renault powered like the 440 I believe, but the latest ones I dunno. Is it Volvo's variant of the Ford/PSA HDI unit?
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Old February 9th, 2006, 11:07   #9
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The maintainence isn't so much of an issue, the 2.5 is just not as friendly to work on with it's twin belts special tools and hard to set timing etc, as well as being knuckle skinning due to width. But I'd put up with it if I could get the economy. I'm interested in the tuning - do you have any experience in 'working' the 2.5?

Greg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlaudi
This is a quick reply, so I have not done the research to anwser your question fully, but from memory.

A check of a VW / Audi ETKA parts catalog will provide the need cross referencing infomation and there are plenty for sale on eBay. I brough mine a few years ago on eBay Deutschland and had it sent to me.

I would agree that a 1.9 TDi is less expensive to service than a 2.5 TDi as the 1.9 is a four cylinder and the 2.5 a V6. But the cost of converting to the smaller motor I would think would far out weigh any maintenance savings. Especially when the cost of tuning a 2.5 TDi for improved power and economy is rather cheap from VW / Audi Tuners like Motoren-Technik-Meyer (M-T-M), for example.

Regards
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Old February 9th, 2006, 12:45   #10
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(Another quick reply....)

To all the other posters, as stated in another thread I saw the Audi 5-cylinder 2.5 TD first hand at the 1991 Frankfort Auto show, but if I remember correctly it an electronically control indirect injection motor rather than the current "Common Rail" / PD etc. direct injection motors. I believe no one, like "tuners" Oettinger, Abt, M-T-M etc. ever really did in development work on this familly of motors which date back to the late-seventies. But I could be wrong on this for sure.

The current 2.5 TDi is a V6 (90 degree?) instead of narow angle- inline (15 degree ?) VR6 of which no diesel version has been put into production.

As for experience with a 2.5 V6 TDI ? I have no direct experience since Audi has been unable or unwilling to bring their fine family of diesels into the States, except in limited numbers as fitted to VWs. And of those, they are the "basic versions" of the 1.9 / 2.0 TDI 4-cylinder motors.

What little I know of the 2.5 V6 TDi is what I have learned through Audi Driver and VW Driver Magazines which, as I am sure you know, originate in the UK. (I would still check with the various tuners both in Germanny and the UK though.)

And I have yet to convince my French father in-law to switch from Renaults to either a VW or Audi. Unlike my wife! So no experience there either.
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Last edited by karlaudi; February 9th, 2006 at 12:56.
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Old February 9th, 2006, 16:52   #11
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The Audi 100 Avant TDI had a 2.5L 5-cylinder TDI engine.

It *WAS* direct injection, being a TDI, but used a Bosch VE (distributor) pump, much like the 1970's diesels (actually, the 51 Diesel Beetle prototype used a VE pump, for that matter...) - and just like your Golf, which is one of the later VE-TDIs.

Pumpe-Duese didn't appear until 2000 in Europe and 2004 in the US, after all.

Oh, and there's several different 2.5L TDIs.

The 2.5L I-5 VE-TDI was first.

Then there were 2.5L V6 VE, PD, and CR-TDIs (yep, Audi uses CR now).

Oh, and can't forget the 2.5L R5 (think I-5) PD-TDI. Half of a V10 TDI.
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Old February 10th, 2006, 00:17   #12
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The 5 cylinder was a “direct injection” TD in 2.5 liter form from 1989 to 1994 (in that there is a chassis split) and was Audi’s first TDi motor. [When I saw it at Frankfort, in 1991, I was unable to get any literature and was unable to get any one to point out the features of the motor as well. The 2.0/2.4 version 5-cylinder motors are indirect injection.

My EKTA is current to 2001 for European models and checking everywhere else I see no record of PD’s ever being used on any VW/ Audi motor bigger than 4 cylinders except for the 2.5 L R5 TDi used, apparently in the European Market Touareg and T5 Multivan/Commercial. I believe it is use in Marine applications as well. The “R” in R5 being the German acronym for inline.

The 2.5 L R5 TDi should not be confused with the 150/170 hp 2.3 L VR5 or the 150 2.5 (US Market only) inline 5-cylinder gasoline motors in both design and design origins.

Because “Common Rail” is most closely associated with direct injection diesels I tend to use it with all VW/ Audi TDi’s whether they use VE pumps, or rotary vane pumps, or PD ‘s, as short hand, especially with those I know who are not VW / Audi focused, like I am, in discussions outside this forum. Otherwise it just gets too confusing.

Thanks again!

Best Regards!
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Last edited by karlaudi; February 17th, 2006 at 16:22.
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Old February 12th, 2006, 19:43   #13
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I wouldn't discount the 2.5 I-5 as anything but the very best of VWs technology. If you watch Kleinschmidt or whoever in a PDK Touareg, you are watching the 5 cyl, NOT the V-10 TDI. In other words, VW Motorsport is one source for 2.5 tuning info, and I should imagine the chip tuners know the engine as well.

Karl: Please don't refer to the VW engines as common rail, since they are anything but. The current PD engines are unit injectors (an evolutionary dead end since they cannot accomodate dissolved/released air in the fuel). The new Audis are indeed CRTDIs - which means that the fuel pressure is boosted to delivery pressure in the "common rail" and the injectors (peizzo-electric ones) are on-off valves (with incredibly fast response times in this case).
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Old February 13th, 2006, 00:53   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Dolan
I wouldn't discount the 2.5 I-5 as anything but the very best of VWs technology. If you watch Kleinschmidt or whoever in a PDK Touareg, you are watching the 5 cyl, NOT the V-10 TDI. In other words, VW Motorsport is one source for 2.5 tuning info, and I should imagine the chip tuners know the engine as well.

Karl: Please don't refer to the VW engines as common rail, since they are anything but. The current PD engines are unit injectors (an evolutionary dead end since they cannot accomodate dissolved/released air in the fuel). The new Audis are indeed CRTDIs - which means that the fuel pressure is boosted to delivery pressure in the "common rail" and the injectors (peizzo-electric ones) are on-off valves (with incredibly fast response times in this case).
Thanks Pat for the perspective, but I know what PD’s are and why VW/Bosch are dropping them. I learned about piezo-electric injectors in my VW Driver and Audi Driver Magazines before this development was mentioned here in the TDi Club forum.

As I said I use the term “common rail” as short hand for this reason. Outside this forum, outside the USA for that matter, the most common term associated direct injection diesel engine technology, regardless of what fuel system is actually used, is “common rail.”

Quick! How many tdi engines have been using common rail over the last ten years and who makes them. Well, I do not know off the top of my head, but if I check every issue of the British magazine CAR I have (I still have almost every issue since I saw my first copy in 1983.) I am sure I will most likely find more brands of tdi diesels fitted with common rail than not, given the development of tdi technology outside the VW/Audi Group. (Otherwise I have been reading wrong all these years and I never claim to be perfect.)

If I said, “Super 90” what is the first thought that comes in your head? I would hazard to say if you have heard the term before, it is in association with Porsche.

Correct?

Or did you say Audi.

Most people, who would know, would say Porsche and would be correct. I have found few who know, even at Audi Dealers, that the first Audi ever sold in the USA was called a “Super 90.” It was a “Super 90” because it required Premium gasoline (95 –98 RON) and produced 90 hp DIN. And to describe the Super 90 fully, I would have to explain the basis of the Super 90 and how it fit into a model lineup that was all the same except the models were delineated by the engine horsepower, not engine displacement (but was related) and trim levels. Yet, in point of fact, it is even more detailed than that.

My point here is that, as I stated originally, I use term “common rail” as short hand, so that every discussion, especially outside this forum, is not a full blown technical dissertation when the basics of TDi Technology are that Direct Injection Diesels require [ever] higher fuel system pressures with more precise and adjustable injection times in a drive to produce greater power and torque over a specific RPM range with ever increasing regard to fuel consumption and emissions in which “common rail” fuel systems are the systems of choice for these on going developments in passenger cars. This was true very early on in the growth of TDi technology, especially outside of the VW /Audi Group.

As for performance tuning of either a first or second-generation Audi 2.5 L 5-cylinder diesel let me address the first generation motor, first.

As this motor was converted to direct injection rather late in its production life, I do not doubt that there is little, if any, performance tuning available for this motor, nor do I ever recall there ever being any.

In the heyday of the 2.2/2.3 L 5-cylinder gasoline motor very little was offered in the area of engine tuning, be it a 20V or 10V Turbo, or normally aspirated motor. In 1991, at the Frankfurt Auto Show the premier VW / Audi tuner, Abt, offered no engine enhancements, of any type, outside of a post catalyst exhaust for the then current production type 89 80/90 model Audis, for example.

With respect to the 2.5 L R5 5-cylinder motor running in VW Motorsport supported Touaregs. If past patterns follow, with VW and Audi racing cars over the past 31 years, very little of the motor, outside of the short block, will resemble a production [second generation] 2.5L R5 5-cylinder.

Of the two preeminent VW/Audi tuners, Abt Sportline and M-T-M (Motoren-Technik-Mayer), only Abt offers performance modifications for the 2.5L R5 5-cylinder in the form of “chip tuning” (128 @ 3500 rpm to 152 @ 3800 DIN). M-T-M’s sole focus is on the V-10 TDi.

I drove a few of the original Audi 5-cylinder diesels sold in the USA when they were current models [and I serviced VW's and Audis for a living] and I loved them. I very much enjoyed the gasoline versions, especially in the type 85 and type 89 quattro’s I’ve owned too.

But I must say I still believe, given all our discussions so far, that the conversion of 1.9 TDi to either a 2.5 V6 TDi or 2.5 R5 TDi is not the best option given the tuning developments that already exists for VW/Audi models of A4/A6 already equipped with either the 1.9 or 2.5 TDi’s from the factory.
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Last edited by karlaudi; February 17th, 2006 at 16:23.
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Old February 13th, 2006, 01:41   #15
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For what it's worth having qualified as a mechanic some 16 years ago and spending many hundreds of hours working on customers cars and mixing with others in the trade, Common Rail is NEVER used as a 'shorthand' in the UK. Common Rail means it's a common rail fed diesel. If people are using a generic term for a diesel engine, they will just say 'diesel'. With modern engines if a shorthand is uses, it's likely to be DI for a modern motor which is Direct Injection (this could be PD, pump or CR). Most certainly CR is never used in connecetion with a PD motor such as the Land Rover or VW engine, or a pump motor (be it a di or an idi pump motor).

Generally, when you have a fork and a spade, it's best not to call them both spades as people get confused ;-)

Oh and on the subject of the 5-cyl motor, water pump breaking and breaking cambelt, pump timing and cambelt replacement issues combined with 10mpg less than a 1.9tdi running at a similar power level would suggest to me it's not the best of VW. The fact that it can be developed for extra power isn't really the point. Yet to find anyone that can demonstrate outstanding fuel economy from the 2.5. In fact I have yet to see anyone beat my Montego of old, 2.0 turbo DI engine and when doing a motorway run between 85 and 100mph it would return the same as in mixed town driving, 55mpg. Never beaten that yet. Some people got 70 out of them, not me - heavy right foot. Checked over many tanks of fuel, it was always consistant.

I don't really understand why these obviously better modern cars are so poor on fuel. Hired a Ford Fiesta 1.4 diesel, did about 400 miles, brimmed the tank again and it had done 38mpg. CR engine. And I never got above 85mph on that trip - awful economy, my Passat 1.8 Estate used to do 38mpg on a run and the Fiesta is about half the size, diesel, modern, 1.4 engine computer controled. Hire place said they were all the same - awful on fuel!

Greg.
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