ALH Timing belt/Fuel injection pump replacement: resistence

colorobo2002 · Jun 21, 2017

I'm in the middle of the fuel injection pump replacement. A little background: i'm using the metalnerd tools, and have done and undone the install 3-4 times (the first 3-4 times the timing marks didn't all align, so i had to remove/loosen the belt/2 pulleys and redo).

Here is where I screwed up... on the 4th time, i tried to rotate the engine (with the camshaft locking plate installed AND the car in gear, fuel injection pump locking pin WAS removed). While beginning to rotate the engine, I heard a snap/shearing sound, which i presume was the locking plate, as it is slightly twisted and cracked. Yup, i screwed up, and hoped for the best...

So i removed the belt/pulleys and redid the install, but this time I got a very firm resistence when i tried to rotate the engine (the proper way with no plate and not in gear). I am familiar with how much resistence was present the first 3 times i rotated the engine, so i am confident that the resistence i feel is not normal.

So again, i removed the belt/pulleys and turned each part of the motor individually and they all seem to rotate fine on their own, with no resistence.

Any thoughts of what i have done? Why am i getting this resistence under pressure, when I have removed the cam locking plate, pump pin, and taken it out of gear?

Genesis · Jun 21, 2017

You may have cracked the end of the camshaft and it's binding. Look VERY carefully at the end where the lock plate goes; if you did crack it the break should be visible.

colorobo2002 · Jun 21, 2017

ok, let me look, when turning camshaft on it's own, i turned it nearly 90 degrees with no resistence. i'll check that tonight.

thedude78 · Jun 21, 2017

You know what the funny this is......well not so much funny but I did the EXACT same thing yesterday and this was the result

Needless to say, I learned an expensive lesson. ALWAYS triple check to make sure that you've removed all the locking plates and pins. I feel your pain brother!

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colorobo2002 · Jun 22, 2017

oi vey, I'm sorry you're going through this. Removed the cap on the end of my cam, and the cam looks pretty good. I do have some indentations/chips but I think it should be OK. I don't see any cracks in the cam. I took some pictures, than sprayed it down with some carb cleaner to get a better look, and i don't think it looks cracked. https://d2um9aptpsgwwp.cloudfront.n...humb.jpg.ad7061d9d904058304489c763f6014de.jpg https://d2um9aptpsgwwp.cloudfront.n...4130.jpg.a103d1b616a4c4cdf4c6eb7b1d77d54a.jpg

UhOh · Jun 22, 2017

I'm wondering whether you now have the crank+cam timing way out of whack and you're getting piston-to-valve contact. Not sure if you could actually break the cam further in on the shaft or not: pulling the valve cover would be the best way to determine for sure.

KLXD · Jun 22, 2017

Were you turning it by the crank or the cam or the pump?

colorobo2002 · Jun 23, 2017

i had/have the valve cover off and the motor is all definitely timed correctly. i checked the rest of the visible parts of the cam, and see no cracks (i suspect the end where the lock plate was is the common failing point, as there is less meat around there). i was turning the motor by the cam via the long metalnerd tool that goes on the cam-wheel. after i removed the timing belt, i turned the crankshaft by putting the car in gear and rotating the wheel. but that shouldn't have done anything.

I'm thinking i'll remove the belt again, rotate crank 90 degrees (so all pistons are clearing the valves) and see what happens when i crank the cam. only other think i can think of is to remove the cam (then all valves should seat and clear the pistons) and then rotate the crank to see that i have not bent/stuck a valve. but i really don't think i bent a valve.

Or maybe i'm just being paranoid about when i am getting this resistence while turning. but it feels more like a solid obstruction, rather than just the increasing compression when turning the motor over by hand.

any other ideas?

steve6 · Jun 23, 2017

Uhhh, You cant turn the crank independently(belt off) of the cam with the camshaft still installed. It will touch valves that are open.

wonneber · Jun 23, 2017

With the crank slightly before TDC you could turn the cam as much as you want, valves should not hit.
DO NOT USE THE STARTER to turn the engine.
At this point first I would lock the pump and loosen the 3 adjusting bolts, it should be where it belongs.
Never turn the engine from the cam or pump.
Remove the belt.
Then move the crank back to before TDC. (1/8 turn should be enough)
Go slow, if something hits stop & turn the other way.
Now turn the cam a couple times to check its free. Some tension as the valves open.
Now put the cam lock in, both cyl 1 valves point up.
Pump and cam should be OK now.
Turn the crank back to TDC and put the belt on and tension it.
Snug the 3 pump bolts, tighten the cam fairly tight.
Remove the cam and pump lock.
Now turn the crank slowly at least 2 (or multiple increments) full turns to make sure nothing hits.
You will feel compression as pistons come up, just wait a few seconds.
Turn the crank back to TDC and check is the cam and pump locks can still go in easily.
If it's OK so far REMEMBER TO TORQUE THE BOLTS AND NUTS you loosened.
You could give it 2 last turns to be safe.

Hope I got this in the correct order.

colorobo2002 · Jun 23, 2017

Thanks, that is basically how I have done it based on the FAQ on myturbodiesel...

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KLXD · Jun 23, 2017

Except you said you were turning it via the cam. Like wonneber said, put a wrench on the crank bolt.

When you turn the cam you're putting a lot of tension on the belt it wasn't meant to take in fighting compression at 2:1 ratio. You can see that the tensioner is backing off because of this. Depending how hard you are pushing to fight compression the belt can skip.

colorobo2002 · Jun 23, 2017

Thanks for clarifying guys, I will use the crank to turn the motor. It appeared to me that the write-ups said to turn by the cam using the that tool, thanks for pointing that out.

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KLXD · Jun 23, 2017

Some of them do but they are incorrect.

You'll find you have a much better feel and control.

colorobo2002 · Jun 24, 2017

so i pulled cam and found hydraulic lifters for cylinder #2 don't move, they are partially recessed. all other lifters are springy. I am getting that resistance when i turn the crank while the cam is removed, and the valves should be recessed. i'm thinking i bent some valves, and they are stuck open. reading up on pulling the head, unless someone has some wonderful ideas for me.

Genesis · Jun 25, 2017

Most-likely yes, and the next step is for the head to come off.

wonneber · Jun 26, 2017

Why are you replacing the injector pump?
Was there any issue with the belt before you took things apart?
You didn't crank the engine with the starter after you put things back together did you?

flee · Jun 27, 2017

After the head comes off you can inspect the piston tops for signs of valve contact.
With such a low speed event there is hopefully no lifter bore damage.
Replace the valves and lifters that made contact, clean the head, lap the seats and go!

colorobo2002 · Jun 27, 2017

I replaced the pump cuz it was leaking from the main seals (not the 3 easy ones to replace) now that you mention it... I bought the car from a reputable be shop. The story goes (I called the PO and believe his side) previous shop said they replaced timing belt, but didn't. The belt eventually skipped a few teeth and along with some other problems, wouldn't start. The reputable shop "confirmed engine was ok before proceeding" and advised motor was ok. Customer bailed on the car because of the repairs (he brought it in from out of state and was missing some egr/emissions items) so it needed a few other things. So I wonder if there may have been some damage done to the motor before I got into it.

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Genesis · Jun 27, 2017

Absolutely was and said "reputable shop" either doesn't know what they're doing or intentionally screwed you. It is basically impossible to have a timing belt skip and NOT have valve/piston contact on these cars. Further, in virtually every case when it happens the head HAS TO come off with the valves in question replaced (along with the lifters, obviously) and piston protrusion checked to make sure you didn't bend one or more rods.

The usual outcome if you don't do that is that 10k or so miles later one of the valve stems will fracture and drop the valve in the hole. Most of the time that results in fatal damage to the bore in question and since these engines are parent-bore (not sleeved) the engine is done.

BobnOH · Jun 27, 2017

Yea, what they said.
Pull head
Evaluate lower end
refresh head

colorobo2002 · Jun 27, 2017

Yup, pulling the head...

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flee · Jun 28, 2017

Genesis said:
Absolutely was and said "reputable shop" either doesn't know what they're doing or intentionally screwed you. It is basically impossible to have a timing belt skip and NOT have valve/piston contact on these cars. Further, in virtually every case when it happens the head HAS TO come off with the valves in question replaced (along with the lifters, obviously) and piston protrusion checked to make sure you didn't bend one or more rods.
The usual outcome if you don't do that is that 10k or so miles later one of the valve stems will fracture and drop the valve in the hole. Most of the time that results in fatal damage to the bore in question and since these engines are parent-bore (not sleeved) the engine is done.

Don't make it worse than it is.
This scenario is unlikely to result in bent rods.

Genesis · Jun 28, 2017

You may have missed the part of the description of the events before the owner did the work and had the "while being hand-turned over" contact -- it includes a timing belt incident from the previous owner before he bought it with a shop (turned seller) that said "the engine was ok."

I'm not concerned about the current situation having potentially bent rods. I am concerned that the previous timing belt incident (from before the current owner bought the car) was "fixed" without removing the head -- that is, the belt was replaced and the car put back on the road without investigating whether there was valve damage, and THAT is the root cause of the current owner's problem.

If so then the current owner in fact dodged a bullet as he MAY have caught a hanging valve problem just before it was due to drop a valve into the cylinder while the engine was running, which would have probably destroyed his engine entirely.

Since he's pulling the head anyway at this point checking piston protrusion is a no-brainer -- just to make sure he's not dealing with more than he thinks he is, never mind to make sure he gets the right head gasket when he puts the head back on!

BobnOH · Jun 28, 2017

The past history and even the recent service issue were confusing, I can see how 2 people would read it different.
But back to where we are now. I recommend you get some help and/or "learn up" on working with engine internals. Question and answer on these forums may not be sufficient to get you home. We do have some members who do this type work and they can be very helpful.

flee · Jun 28, 2017

I was referring directly to Genesis' statement that valve-piston contact may have bent one or more rods.
This is seldom the case.

Genesis · Jun 28, 2017

Seldom is true but (1) it does happen and (2) you have to pull the head anyway to fix the valves and you must check piston protrusion to know which head gasket to order so at the same time you get to check for this possibility (rare though it is) "for free."

flee · Jun 28, 2017

Breathe

ALH Timing belt/Fuel injection pump replacement: resistence

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