2005 BEW PD lift pump operation and internals

halocline · Feb 6, 2011

My friend sent me this pdf. It's got a description of Gates fuel lines, one that's reinforced and gas/diesel resistant inside and out. Its SAE30R10. I have no idea what the price would be, or if it's flexible enough. Maybe someone else is familiar with it.

http://www.gates.com/common/downloads/files/Gates/brochure/TechTipsForm.pdf

Edit: looks like its about $20/ft sold in 1 foot lengths here:
http://www.frsport.com/Gates-27093-...Hose-For-In-Tank-Lines-SAE-30R10_p_15937.html

DanG144 · Feb 6, 2011

That might be very good hose. I would like to see it in longer lengths, as 12" may not be long enough to route with no kinks.
At $20 to $22 per foot that is still pretty expensive.
I use about 3ft in my routing, and two of the lengths are over 12" long. I do not know if this hose could be routed more tightly or not.
I do not think the hose clamps I use would fit over that hose, you would have to get larger ones.
It does look as if it is better hose for the application.

halocline · Feb 7, 2011

I think I'll try this stuff:
http://www.dudadiesel.com/viton.php?affiliate_pro_tracking_id=17:18:US

Looks like the wall thickness is about 3/32. Dan, I'm happy to order a little extra if you want to try it.

DanG144 · Feb 7, 2011

Now that does look very interesting. The embedded reinforcing fibers may allow greatly reduced bend radius without kinking. The price is not outrageous, though it is ten times what I pay for the PE hose.

I need to order some more material and will order some for myself.

Thank you for sharing the research and time you spent on this

dieseldigger · Feb 11, 2011

I have an 06 that was running rough. Thought it was bad fuel due to bacteria. Fuel is black, but shocked it with biocide. Now it starts, runs for a few seconds then quits. Will do that over n over. Pulled filter out, changed it and cleaned up canister, cycled key and pump is putting out fine. What do you think is causing this? When it starts it runs fine for a few seconds so it can't be the fuel quality?

DanG144 · Feb 11, 2011

It sounds as if it may be the immobilizer, it does this, but should cause a symbol to light on the dash and throw a code.

It is also possible you put the fuel hoses on wrong. It will do exactly this if the fuel hoses are installed backwards.

halocline · Feb 11, 2011

I got the 5/16 viton hose from dudadiesel today. It looks pretty rugged, has some stiffness but can be easily bent in a fairly tight radius. When I get the new pump and put it together I'll try to take a photo or two.

DanG144 · Feb 11, 2011

I just ordered mine today, and my latest new pump yesterday. So I am a few days behind you.

I keep a spare pump around for my car, but it ends up being the regional spare. This is about the 6th one I have had.

DanG144 · Feb 14, 2011

The dudadiesel fuel hose was delivered today. It does bend very well without kinking. My pump should be in this week, so maybe by next weekend I will be able to see if it will bend tight enough to use short lengths of hose for the mod.

Excellent find, halocline.

halocline · Feb 18, 2011

I just finished the LCR mod on my new lift pump with the 5/16" viton hose from dudadiesel and the check valve/barb from Mcmaster Carr that Dan recommended. I was able to rout the hose just like LCR's original mod with the green 1/4" viton hose. It's tight, especially getting the check valve to sit with the lower barb heading down into the canister. Given how tight the original hose is, I hope the viton doesn't slip off the barbs.

So far I've only driven a couple of miles to fill up the tank, but it's running great and I ran it for a few minutes with the fuse 28 out.

WILYDIESEL · Feb 27, 2011

Fuel problem

DanG144 said:
The dudadiesel fuel hose was delivered today. It does bend very well without kinking. My pump should be in this week, so maybe by next weekend I will be able to see if it will bend tight enough to use short lengths of hose for the mod.

Excellent find, halocline.

Howdy, just been reading your threads and thought you might be the guy that would know where you can find a fuel pump relay on a 05.5 pd brm Jetta. I replaced my lift pump when the car quit running while driving. Started up but I did not hear the pump running. Ran it the next day and under heavy acceleration it died. Thought maybe it was a bad pump so got another one from Bora parts and still no sound from the pump. Pulled the filter head off and no fuel present. Left the top loose and turned the key twice and no fuel.
So, now I checked the fuel pump fuses and both are good for the third time. Went to the dealership and they said it has a pump relay no. 449 and is located at KL30. No one at the dealership on Sat. knew anything about it, so, kinda stuck. Have you any ideas? Thanks.

PDJetta · Feb 27, 2011

Check for power at the pump plug just to make sure there is no power. The pump only gets power for a second or so when the key is turnd on, unless the engine starts, so watch the test light/meter when you turn the key on. The two larger terminals in the 4-prong pump plug (at the pump) provide the power (the other two are for the fuel level sender).

I think the fuel pump relay may be the same relay used elsewhere on the relay panel, so if you identify it, it may be possible to swap it out with a like one of the same part number.

My Bentley lists it as relay 409, location #4 (top row, 4th over from the left) on the relay panel. Bentley states there is an auxilary relay panel ABOVE the relay panel, so it must be the lower relay panel. This is above the pedal cluster behind the covers, I think. This is for my 2004 PD BEW. BUT my Bentley also states the glow plug relay is there, but I know for a fact that it sits in the cowel area, so what Bentley states may not be correct. Just one of the many Bentley inconsistencies/errors I have found.

--Nate

DanG144 · Feb 27, 2011

Nate, the 05.5 will not even be close to the same.

Wiley,
I will try to look it up tomorrow.
Dan

gula47 · Mar 27, 2011

Using the pump on a 2006

I was told that using the MK4 PD pump (no suffix) is better on my MK5 PD (2006 Jetta). Bora parts sent me one and when I installed it I noticed that my fuel pump has a 3 pin connector for the fuel level sender (5 pins total). Is there an easy way to take care of this? Or is the swap not as easy as I heard?
Thanks

DanG144 · Mar 27, 2011

I have not heard that. In fact, it seems that the MkV pump is tougher than the Mk IV pump. At least, I have replaced a dozen MkIV pumps, but never a Mk V one.

I do not know how to do the wiring swap, sorry.

PDJetta · Mar 28, 2011

Speaking of replacing the MKIV PD TDI lift pump, has anyone here had to replace theirs twice? In other words, I wonder if the replacement lasts longer than the original.

I think I had the first lift pump failure on this list. Mine was so early it was warrantied by VW (at 46,000 miles). I now have 83,000 miles on the replacement pump and have been riding around with a spare lift pump in my trunk. I am wondering if I should just replace the "replaced" lift pump soon. My original failure was without warning and the engine just quit and luckily I had a place to coast off of the road. It would not restart. Towed to VW and fixed under warranty. I do not want to go through that again. Opinions?

Thanks.

--Nate

halocline · Mar 28, 2011

Why don't you do the mod on your current lift pump? You could then run your car with a failed pump. I replaced my dead pump and I barely notice the difference. When I pulled the fuse to make sure the car would run with the new pump dead, it worked great. I used the dudadiesel hose and the check valve from mcmaster-carr.

scotclayshooter · Apr 9, 2011

My replacement used pump was not having much output so I searched for while and bought a brand new one on ebay for £15.77 delivered! Result!

Ok this may help someone it was an original VDO and new BUT the part number was for a VW Polo TDI started with 6Q0 instead of 1J0 but the rest of the part number matched 919 050A, Well it fitted it wired right up and the car is running perfect now bit better than paying £300+ and the other ones are easier to find.

Dimitri16V · Apr 10, 2011

check it by pulling the fuse, if the car still runs, you will be OK.
mine does .

cactus13 · May 15, 2011

Dan, thank you for the detailed posts regarding the lift pump. Car here is a 2004 Beetle TDI. I have all the symptoms, pump puts out 1.5 liters/min. from the filter out port, (#2 in post #39).
I have read all of the posts and can't seem to find any info on splitting the canister open and getting to the screen to check for clog.
Can you tell me how do I pull it apart with out damage? It pulls about 3/4" apart then it seems like to much force to pop something loose.
In one post where you refer to the person disassembling the canister without cutting the hose you refer to a long pick. Is there a release for the eductor or something?
Thanks for your help.

JB05 · May 15, 2011

I took apart two of these pump assemblies and both screens were not clogged. The motor of the pump itself was in need of cleaning; the commutator was all gunked up. Cactus, your flow rate seems to be right where it should be. What symtoms are you experiencing? Another quick test would be an amperage draw which should be ~4 amps. with the engine running. I'm sure Dan would be of more help.

cactus13 · May 15, 2011

JB, my symptoms were stalling at idle or low rpm's. If I kept the rpm's above 2000 - 2500 the car ran fine, in fact I drove it home 30 miles. If I got to alight and didn't get into neutral and rev it it died and would restart with a little bit of cranking. Seems like the condition described in this post where the tandem pump was sucking fuel when it got enough revs to create the necessary vacuum.
I was under the impression that proper flow was 3+ liters/ minute. Did I get that wrong? I measured this on the outlet side of the brand new fuel filter.
Any way is there a special tool or trick to separating the upper part of the pump from th canister? Seems to me it would be good to eliminate any possible blockage.
Thanks

DanG144 · May 15, 2011

Yes, the output flow is normally about 3.8 lpm.

DanG144 · May 15, 2011

If you look at the pictures in post #1 and post #2 closely you can see there is a catch at the bottom inside edge of the eductor that needs to be lifted up at the bottom in order to remove the eductor.

If you take a very long pick you can stick it down through the clip and release it.

Otherwise you have to cut the hose to get it off.

Typically the low flow is due to a dragging motor, not a clogged screen. But the screen can clog.

cactus13 · May 16, 2011

Thanks for the reply Dan. I might try to make something that will reach down there. One last question, I remember either a post in this thread or a link to another thread led to a parts source to buy the grey and white replacement lift pump. A lot of searching and I can't find it again. Do you remember where that link was or who it was that sold the unit for about $200 back in 2008 or so? The best price I can find currently is IDI parts for around $239....

Thanks again for so much valuable and detailed info.

DanG144 · May 16, 2011

Try boraparts.com.

andreigbs · May 16, 2011

Just replaced my lift pump this weekend, with the help of this thread (thanks Dan!), now TDI fires up quickly, idles smoothly and doesn't drop idle speed slightly when coming to a stop, as it used to do. Also got my top-end power back, whereas it would cut out intermittently above 4k rpms.

Got it from Boraparts, thanks Aaron! Installed in 30 minutes, no mess (tank was so low my fuel light had come on), and it drives smoother than it has in awhile.

Also, some of the idle vibrations are gone. I think the rest may be due to a dying DMF, we'll see.

cactus13 · May 31, 2011

Hello fine folks at the TDI club. It looks like I have to ask for help on the next round of trouble shooting. After following all the test procedures in this thread Still no success. Here's where I'm at:
New lift pump modified a la DanG and LCR. No luck. New Tandem pump
(after testing flow thru return line), still same problem. Pulled EGR, cleaned and reinstalled, also ran it with EGR unplugged. Pulled shutdown/anti-shudder valve connector, no difference.
FWIW, car has 96K miles, running biodiesel, DSG trans, new TB by dealer at 90K. The car shows no codes on my ScanGauge.
The original problem began as my wife was driving out of a large parking lot. Driving 10 -15 mph it just quit on her and she coasted to the side. I came out and got it to start and figured out that if I kept the revs up it would drive just fine so I got it home.
Now two fuel pumps later, just like my original issue, it still cranks for several minutes then just barely starts to run while cranking, then by slowly pushing on accelerator it will catch and run at 1800-2000 rpm's very smoothly. After a couple minutes at these high rpm's it will idle roughly within a few hundred rpm up or down then just dies like it is out of fuel.
So what do you think is my next course of action? Would the car still run if the TB slipped one tooth? Could the MAF be NG? I was thinking of checking the cam for wear on an injector lobe then checking injector connections then remove injectors to visually check. Is there any logic to this?

Thanks in advance for any help and advice.

mctdi · Jun 1, 2011

I would pull the valve cover and check the camshaft and lifters. As the wear issue is really by the valve lifts and lobes, not the injector lobe.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=216617&highlight=cam

cactus13 said:
Hello fine folks at the TDI club. It looks like I have to ask for help on the next round of trouble shooting. After following all the test procedures in this thread Still no success. Here's where I'm at:
New lift pump modified a la DanG and LCR. No luck. New Tandem pump
(after testing flow thru return line), still same problem. Pulled EGR, cleaned and reinstalled, also ran it with EGR unplugged. Pulled shutdown/anti-shudder valve connector, no difference.
FWIW, car has 96K miles, running biodiesel, DSG trans, new TB by dealer at 90K. The car shows no codes on my ScanGauge.
The original problem began as my wife was driving out of a large parking lot. Driving 10 -15 mph it just quit on her and she coasted to the side. I came out and got it to start and figured out that if I kept the revs up it would drive just fine so I got it home.
Now two fuel pumps later, just like my original issue, it still cranks for several minutes then just barely starts to run while cranking, then by slowly pushing on accelerator it will catch and run at 1800-2000 rpm's very smoothly. After a couple minutes at these high rpm's it will idle roughly within a few hundred rpm up or down then just dies like it is out of fuel.
So what do you think is my next course of action? Would the car still run if the TB slipped one tooth? Could the MAF be NG? I was thinking of checking the cam for wear on an injector lobe then checking injector connections then remove injectors to visually check. Is there any logic to this?

Thanks in advance for any help and advice.

cactus13 · Jun 1, 2011

Checked the cam and compression today. Lobes look perfect. smooth even shine on all faces. lifters look like new with no marks or wear patterns. Car has used Pennzoil 505.01 from dealer until I started oil changes and changed to Motul Synthetic 5w-40. Always changed oil and filter @ 5,000 miles.
Compression is @ 500+ psi. Pulled MAF, it looked clean but sprayed and blew out with MAF cleaner. The car still won't idle.
Does this leave me with a slipped TB? Are there any visible tell-tale signs of a slipped belt? If retarded one tooth will the engine run fine, no valve / piston contact but still not idle? I don't have a VAG-COM so I am left with a visit to the dealer I guess to check the TB.

2005 BEW PD lift pump operation and internals

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