PLEASE READ: Lemon Law Buyback Shenanigans by VW

THIS IS LONG! I am a veteran TDI club member, but have created a new "anonymous name" regarding this. I would like to thank danix for posting the free CARFAX check in the "For Sale" section as I thought VW would try something like this.

Here is the story:
I purchased a silver 2002 VW Golf from South Shore VW in Hanover, MA on approx. 9/8/2002. It was registered as a new vehicle at the Main Registry in Pawtucket, RI. I finally recieved my Rhode Island title in January of 2003.

From day one I had a problem with steering wheel vibration. This was looked in by South Shore VW AND VW of Old Saybrook in Old Saybrook, CT. After numerous repair attempts, I filled for lemon law in Massachusetts and WON!

The car was declared a lemon in August of 2003. I returned the vehicle and ALL keys(but NO paperwork) to South Shore VW on approx. 9/9/2003. They gave me a rental and I then drove to Colonial VW where I was picking up my lemon law replacement vehicle. At Colonial, I signed my title and signed some other paper waork giving VW authority to resell my car. I finally picked up my new vehicle on 9/16/2003.

And now it gets interesting! I just pulled a CARFAX on this car. According to one other VIN check service, a while back(over 3 months) nothing about lemon law was mentioned. Same thing with CARFAX, lemon law check OK!!! BUT, I did get this off of the CARFAX Detailed Vehicle History Report:
01/06/2004, 18,567 miles, Auto Auction, Sold at auction in New England Region. Listed as a repossession.
01/13/2004, Dealer Inventory Glastonbury, CT, Vehicle offered for sale.

Needless to say REPOSSESSION! I AM PISSED! I bought this car and paid for it in FULL and now this. I knew VW would try something. Now let me describe the vehicle:
2002 Golf GLS TDI, silver with black velour interior. Had a moonroof and alloys. The DI of the TDI were red. Dealer might have changed this. VIN: 9BWGP61J024070863 This car had the following warranty work: Front wheel bearings, steering rack, lots of wheel balances and alignments. The rear hatch and rear bumper were also REPAINTED by VW of Old Saybrook thanks to scratches left while performing waranty repair work.

So, if you bought a car that matches this description, contact me b/c I have ALL of the lemon law paper work that you will need to go after VW and the dealer!!

And now a poll:

Where do you think the fraud occurred? VWoA, South Shore or Langan?

I am not at all sure where the fraud occured. I would assume whoever sent it to auction is at fault. So, I doubt it is Langan. The car was titled in RI, declared a lemon in MA, and then sold to a dealer in CT. HOWEVER, I DO hold VW accountable for this and judging by the way they treat customers, myself, and others, I would not put it past them

I just checked a car that GM bought back from me. It wasn't listed as a lemon either. I think I'll report them. Manufacturers are scum.
Brian

Has anyone seen the car for sale and seen whether any lemon disclosure type of stickers are on it?

I have seen used VWs at VW dealers with stickers that obviously said "Manufacturer Buy Back", and (in nicer words) statements that said that the car was essentially a lemon or near lemon, the problem is claimed to be fixed now, and there is some additional warranty included.

I would recommend checking the laws regarding lemons first. It is possible that the manufacturers don't need to identify the cars as lemons. (I doubt it, but that is the best "legal" explanation for what happened that I can come up with.) Then if you know that they did do something illegal, start contacting everyone. Even if they are right, I would contact the new owner and possibly the dealer that sold the car to the new owner so if it acts up again they know that it is an ongoing problem.

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The car was declared a lemon in August of 2003. I returned the vehicle and ALL keys(but NO paperwork) to South Shore VW on approx. 9/9/2003.
And now it gets interesting! ... I did get this off of the CARFAX Detailed Vehicle History Report:
01/06/2004, 18,567 miles, Auto Auction, Sold at auction in New England Region. Listed as a repossession.
01/13/2004, Dealer Inventory Glastonbury, CT, Vehicle offered for sale.
This car had the following warranty work: Front wheel bearings, steering rack, lots of wheel balances and alignments. The rear hatch and rear bumper were also REPAINTED by VW of Old Saybrook thanks to scratches left while performing waranty repair work.

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Technically speaking, this Golf WAS repossessed. VW took possession again. Then they fixed it up and sold it at auction. What would you have them do, melt it down for scrap?

Either they fixed it properly, or the next owner will have the same problems you had. If the second case, then the car will still be under warranty for another 30 months and 30k miles, approximately. So I don't see how it makes sense for VW to resell the car UNLESS it has been completely fixed.

I would be curious to find out if the dealership that has it now can bring up all the repair history of this car, back to the day you initially took possession of it. Perhaps if there is a TDI Club member who works at a VW dealership....

Yea it would be nice for the current owner to know the true history on the car, even if it is physically fine now...carfax should know also...

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The car was declared a lemon in August of 2003. I returned the vehicle and ALL keys(but NO paperwork) to South Shore VW on approx. 9/9/2003.
And now it gets interesting! ... I did get this off of the CARFAX Detailed Vehicle History Report:
01/06/2004, 18,567 miles, Auto Auction, Sold at auction in New England Region. Listed as a repossession.
01/13/2004, Dealer Inventory Glastonbury, CT, Vehicle offered for sale.
This car had the following warranty work: Front wheel bearings, steering rack, lots of wheel balances and alignments. The rear hatch and rear bumper were also REPAINTED by VW of Old Saybrook thanks to scratches left while performing waranty repair work.

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Technically speaking, this Golf WAS repossessed. VW took possession again. Then they fixed it up and sold it at auction. What would you have them do, melt it down for scrap?

Either they fixed it properly, or the next owner will have the same problems you had. If the second case, then the car will still be under warranty for another 30 months and 30k miles, approximately. So I don't see how it makes sense for VW to resell the car UNLESS it has been completely fixed.

I would be curious to find out if the dealership that has it now can bring up all the repair history of this car, back to the day you initially took possession of it. Perhaps if there is a TDI Club member who works at a VW dealership....

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Technically you are wrong. Just like a totaled auto it is illegal to list a "lemom law" car as anything other than that. A defective auto buy-back. The car has been title laundered through a few states to "lose" the info put on the title from the origional DMV or VW told them it was a repo and need to be reported. That's consumer fraud.

Call dateline......

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The car was declared a lemon in August of 2003. I returned the vehicle and ALL keys(but NO paperwork) to South Shore VW on approx. 9/9/2003.
And now it gets interesting! ... I did get this off of the CARFAX Detailed Vehicle History Report:
01/06/2004, 18,567 miles, Auto Auction, Sold at auction in New England Region. Listed as a repossession.
01/13/2004, Dealer Inventory Glastonbury, CT, Vehicle offered for sale.
This car had the following warranty work: Front wheel bearings, steering rack, lots of wheel balances and alignments. The rear hatch and rear bumper were also REPAINTED by VW of Old Saybrook thanks to scratches left while performing waranty repair work.

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Technically speaking, this Golf WAS repossessed. VW took possession again. Then they fixed it up and sold it at auction. What would you have them do, melt it down for scrap?

Either they fixed it properly, or the next owner will have the same problems you had. If the second case, then the car will still be under warranty for another 30 months and 30k miles, approximately. So I don't see how it makes sense for VW to resell the car UNLESS it has been completely fixed.

I would be curious to find out if the dealership that has it now can bring up all the repair history of this car, back to the day you initially took possession of it. Perhaps if there is a TDI Club member who works at a VW dealership....

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Technically you are wrong. Just like a totaled auto it is illegal to list a "lemom law" car as anything other than that. A defective auto buy-back. The car has been title laundered through a few states to "lose" the info put on the title from the origional DMV or VW told them it was a repo and need to be reported. That's consumer fraud.

Call dateline......

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Exactly correct. The car I was talking about was bought back in VA and ended up with someone in VA. I hope the Attorney General here rails on GM.
Most states have laws like this:

§ 59.1-207.16:1. Disclosure of returned vehicles; penalty.

A. If a motor vehicle that is returned to the manufacturer or distributor either under this chapter or by judgment, decree, or arbitration award in this or any other state and is then transferred by a manufacturer or distributor to a dealer, licensed under Chapter 15 (§ 46.2-1500 et seq.) of Title 46.2, in Virginia, the manufacturer or distributor shall disclose this information to the Virginia dealer.

B. If the returned vehicle is then made available for resale or for another lease, the manufacturer shall, prior to sale or lease, disclose in writing in a clear and conspicuous manner, on a separate piece of paper in ten-point capital type, to the Virginia dealer that this motor vehicle was returned to the manufacturer, distributor or factory branch, the nature of the defect which resulted in the return, and the condition of the motor vehicle at the time of transfer to the Virginia dealer. It shall be the responsibility of the dealer that receives this disclosure to give notice of its contents to any prospective purchaser or lessee prior to sale or lease, and to transfer the disclosure, or a copy thereof, to the next purchaser or lessee. A dealer's responsibility under this section shall cease upon the sale or lease of the affected motor vehicle to the first purchaser or lessee not for resale or lease.

C. Any manufacturer or distributor who violates this section of the Motor Vehicle Warranty Enforcement Act shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.

(1994, c. 578; 1998, c. 671.)

When you purchased the car, did you A) pay cash, B) finance through VW or C) finance through your own bank? It might seem a small thing, but perhaps the financing arm didn't have an appropriate way to describe the situation and that resulted in the erroneous description?

Al

There was NEVER any financing on the vehicle that is the thing. I put a deposit of $1500 on my credit card as a deposit. When I came to pick up the car, they were a cashier's check for the remainder in FULL! NO way that this car could have been "repossessed" for financial reasons. Was it "repossessed" by VW, yes, but that should be listed as a buyback, NOT a repo simply b/c they took possession of it again!

I personally know of at least 5 cases where vehicles checked out with 'clean' carfax records, and had major issues with them, (repo, salvage, lemon law). This doesn't surprise me at all. I think the carfax.com thing is a waste of time and money.

I AGREE..... All this does is prove that CARFAX is a joke. It is not unusual for "buybacks" or even "totalled" vehicles to show up on a salesmans lot simply as a used car. I am note even sure my state requires any "disclosure" anyone can send a "Reclaimed" title to the state and get a "clean" title in return.

I do not know ANY CAR DEALER that would actually put a NEGITIVE entry into the CARFAX system. If you think about it....how in the world would CARFAX get ANY real info about a vehicle?

The best way I know to get around this kind of stuff is a law in the state of PA. Anyone selling a used car MUST provide the phone# of the last known owner. A prospective buyer can call the last owner and get the REAL scoop on the vehicle. (The past owner has no need to fib about the car... he no longer owns it.)

Carfax often gets the information from insurance companies. The rest is just public record at the DMV of the states. If the state dosen't report it, carfax won't get it.

NEVER buy a car through KANSAS or with any HISTORY of title through Kansas. This is the #1 state for title laundering due to very lax DMV laws.

Many years in the car biz and insurance biz has taught me this.

Here I got one for ya.......You Bought A Lemon of a Car When . . .
You notice that the car phone they threw in "for free" has a direct line to Harry's Towing Company.
The booster cables are not in the trunk but are permanently soldered to the battery.
You get a "Good Luck" card from the previous owner.
As you drive up to a service station for gas, the mechanic opens the big door to the service bay and waves you in.
When you leave for work the next morning, you notice a tow truck parked about a block from your driveway. As you drive by, it silently falls in behind you.
The little "Service Engine" warning signal in the dashboard comes on and reads "It's Me Again
/images/graemlins/grin.gifBy the way,been thier done that....Hope all goes well for you and I wish you all the best of luck..Emmanuel

I had nearly the exact same issues with a 2002 Jetta. The dealer offered to replace the car as soon as I mentioned the lemon law. I know for a fact they sold the car without mentioning its problems. They also wanted me to sign a power of attorney which described the car as having the SAME mileage as it had on it when I bought it new... even though I had driven the car nearly 3000 miles before they took it back. This dealership is in Beaverton, Oregon. The car is a black Jetta GLS 5-speed with gray leather. I have never run a Carfax report on this vehicle... might be interesting. Here's the VIN:
3VWSP69M12M085148
We should keep a list of these vehicles on this site for people to reference.

Forgive me, VWL, but I guess Im missing a point...

VW replaced your car, right? I dont see what the issue is. What do you care what happens to your old car? Were YOU dealt with properly?

If the car has 18K miles on it, it still has the balance of the VW mfg. warranty, so the new owner is not without recourse.

I dont see the reason for the high dudgeon...

I think it's very important that we hold people and businesses accountable!

I know I would be royally p*ssed off if I purchased a used vehicle and found out later that it wasn't disclosed to me that it was bought back under the "Lemon Law".

Is the dealership hoping that the next owner won't be so vigilant or won't notice the problems?

It's my understanding that a car is considered a "lemon" if it has persistent, unrepairable problems.

Do you really think it's okay to pass the problems on to another unsuspecting owner?


Keli

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Forgive me, VWL, but I guess Im missing a point...

VW replaced your car, right? I dont see what the issue is. What do you care what happens to your old car? Were YOU dealt with properly?

If the car has 18K miles on it, it still has the balance of the VW mfg. warranty, so the new owner is not without recourse.

I dont see the reason for the high dudgeon...

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Because people get stuck with that crap and they don't have the lemon law as recourse due to the mileage or age of the vehicle. I'd say a lot more but am restraining myself....

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Forgive me, VWL, but I guess Im missing a point...

VW replaced your car, right? I dont see what the issue is. What do you care what happens to your old car? Were YOU dealt with properly?

If the car has 18K miles on it, it still has the balance of the VW mfg. warranty, so the new owner is not without recourse.

I dont see the reason for the high dudgeon...

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Wow, way to look out for fellow TDIrs, huh? /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

I think this is awesome that he is posting this... one more reason why I love this place!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Forgive me, VWL, but I guess Im missing a point...

VW replaced your car, right? I dont see what the issue is. What do you care what happens to your old car? Were YOU dealt with properly?

If the car has 18K miles on it, it still has the balance of the VW mfg. warranty, so the new owner is not without recourse.

I dont see the reason for the high dudgeon...

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Unfortunately, I fell you are missing the point. Its about VWoA's and/or their dealers' practices. I feel that VWoA does not stand behing their product and is now playing games with a lemon car. They need to be called to task! I had a warranty. The car was into the dealer's OVER 20 times over a course of less than 10 months. The problem was still unresolved. The service manager of one dealership even told me that I was overly sensative to vibrations.
The state of Massachusetts felt my car was a lemon and I was lucky enough to get it replaced. I got the same car that I had with all the same options. I got a 2003 instead of a 2002, and the new one even has ESP which I did not pay for. I did luck out! However, this was NOT due to the grace of VWoA's generosity. I had to call my lemon law representative at VWoA NO LESS that 5 times a day at one point to keep her on track and get the matter expidited. Afterall, the creaky wheel gets the grease. I DO NOT want to have another consumer have to go through what I went through.
I am NOT a VW hater. I LOVE the product, but I DO NOT like the way VWoA does business. My significant other and parents bought VWs after I bought mine. There are 8 VW owners in my extended family. I think that VW has a great product but, that they have a LOT of areas that need to be improved pronto. Many current VW owners I know also feel they will not purchase another b/c of the way they have been treated at dealers! I want to see TDIs as the number one selling car in the US, BUT VW has to do a LOT of work in customer satisfaction in they want to go anywhere. I want them to own up to their responsibilities and stand behind the consumer and NOT try to search high and low in order to place blame on the consumer!

An exapmle: I brought my mom's Passat in to have the wipers replaced free of charge b/c the 1 year 12,000 mile maintenance warranty. The dealer when on a rant on how VW doesn't do that etc, etc. I reminded him that it was covered under wear and tear warranty. He then gave me some B/S about how if there was ice damage they wouldn't be covered. ICE DAMAGE? That is a load of cr@p!! The Passats have the aero wipers with no mechanical workings on them. It is a piece of metal encased in rubber. What is ice damage? Come on. This is the kind of stuff that VW simply has to stop. Do what is asked of you and don't give people the B/S. If it was after 1 year or 12,000 miles, then by all means, DENY my claim.

If it's okay w/everyone on this forum I could print this out and give it to Bob Clausey at Langan in Glastonbury, CT tomorrow? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Bob has been the sales manager for Langan for some 20 years. He's a young dude in his early 40's and a good friend of mine. I recently took order for an R32. An R32 to be a TDi. Long story. BLOW TORCHES PLEASE! LOL

M.D.

PLEASE do, I would like to know the status of this car. VW told me that they were under the impression that it was a voluntary buy back and NOT a lemon law buyback. They did NOT volunteer to do ANYTHING. I have the arbitration decision stating that this car meets MASS LEMON LAW statute in my papers. VW claims that they have a signed disclosure from the new owner stating that it was a buyback. I just want to be sure that the new owner is aware that it was a LEMON LAW buyback NOT a voluntary manufacturer's buyback! I also have the original window sticker and ever work order and any and all other paperwork associated with this car. I would like to pass it on to the new owner so they have a record of it! I called the Connecticut Dept. of Consumer Protection and they were VERY interested in what I had to say. They said that they want to look into it further! IF anyone finds anything out, please email me at VWLemonLawDeception@yahoo.com

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The car was titled in RI, declared a lemon in MA, and then sold to a dealer in CT. HOWEVER, I DO hold VW accountable for this and judging by the way they treat customers, myself, and others, I would not put it past them

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This is standard practice! Lemon Laws are not uniform in all states, so it is easy for a 'lemon' in one state to be imported to another state that has a 'lesser lemon' requirement (or worse yet, no 'lemon' designation at all!). ALWAYS check the VIN extensively if you get a CARFAX indicating that a dealer car was imported from a different state. 'Flood cars' are commonly moved this way.

I bought a 1985 Pontiac brand new from a dealer here in Oshkosh, WI, and the trip odometer had MORE miles showing than the main odometer. I said 'What gives' and with a quick flick of the hand, the dealer reset the trip odometer to zero ....

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original quote by: Mike in Oshkosh, WI
I said 'What gives' and with a quick flick of the hand, the dealer reset the trip odometer to zero ....

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That's normal, the cars that rolled off assembly lines are actually minus numbers on the OD. That way the assembly line can move the cars around the platform, the loading dock and delivery points without racking on mileage. So the car in 1985 you are speaking about was set at minus ZERO and the trip was never reset.

I've seen this in Detroit.

As for the Lemon Law and Langan and this thread. As of 13h40 today, 03/03/04 Robert Clausey, the Sales Manager has the printed out copy in his hands that was hand delivered, not by me but by someone who I work with her in NY and in CT at Hartford Hospital in Hartford, CT who has their VW serviced there and who lives in Glastonbury, CT. I had her print out this thread, seal it in an envelop and hand deliver it to Bob.

End.

M.D.