Visting Prius Owner

bwilson4web said:

How does the Jetta hybrid, dynamics rate?

Bob Wilson

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Any Jetta, even one with a trunk full of bricks and two flat tires and a dead cylinder, is nicer to drive than a Prius.

Ah, the driving dynamic...well, I was in West Texas a month or so ago on an oil & gas job and the only car available at the Dollar rental counter was a 2014(?) Prius. Now, I have never driven one before, so I said, OK, I'll take it. The person at the counter asked me if I have ever driven one (I said no) and offered to help me figure out how to make it go if I had a problem.

Well, once inside it, to make it go was a bit of a challenge as I had to wait for the car to get itself ready. Strange. I noticed immediately I could not see out of the rear window (a slit) and that worried me as I would be in fast moving traffic with 80,000 pound trucks carrying oil and water @ 75 MPH all around me all day long.

Once moving out of the airport, I noticed how quiet the car was at 30 MPH. Nice, I thought. I need to mention the dash indicator is 3 feet from my eyes and I have very good vision. I could not see the thing in the daylight so I had no idea what all the graphics were doing and what for?

Once on I-20 I nudged the car up to 75 MPH and thought I had left a rear window open. No...no windows open, just a lot (and I mean a lot) of loud road noise. With all the trucks and big rigs blowing by this thing, I felt *exposed* so to say. Actually, with the poor handling, I felt a bit apprehensive to drive this thing very far from where I got it in case I decided to give it back for another real rental car.

I did make it two full days in the Midland/Odessa area with this thing and now I know why it ended up in West Texas where I believe no one owns one. My feeling is someone rented one nearby (Austin? Abilene?) and gave up on it in Midland.

aja8888 said:

Ah, the driving dynamic... a 2014(?) Prius. . . . Strange. I noticed immediately I could not see out of the rear window (a slit) . . .

. . . I need to mention the dash indicator is 3 feet from my eyes and I have very good vision. I could not see the thing in the daylight so I had no idea what all the graphics were doing and what for?

Once on I-20 I nudged the car up to 75 MPH and thought I had left a rear window open. No...no windows open, just a lot (and I mean a lot) of loud road noise. . . .

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I agree that the current Prius visibility is poor. I can't tell how far the bumpers are from curbs and parking in tight spaces is no fun. I understand the next version fixes the worst. Meanwhile, I use the 03 Prius around town since it has better visibility and a shorter turn radius.

BTW, that real window has a bar for the functional spoiler. At night, I've used it to block tailgater head lights.

The dash indicators take some getting used to and sad to say, some of the displays make me wonder "What were they thinking?" Regardless, I've found the useful ones and ignore the rest . . . until a newbie comes to PriusChat and asks.

Actually, I've added a Scangauge II to get engine coolant and rpm along with real diagnostic data. It is on our list of 'What were they thinking?"

Road noise, my understanding is more sound absorbing material is going into the next model. But that has been a common complaint by some owners.

Bob Wilson

bwilson4web said:

I agree that the current Prius visibility is poor. I can't tell how far the bumpers are from curbs and parking in tight spaces is no fun. I understand the next version fixes the worst. Meanwhile, I use the 03 Prius around town since it has better visibility and a shorter turn radius.

BTW, that real window has a bar for the functional spoiler. At night, I've used it to block tailgater head lights.

The dash indicators take some getting used to and sad to say, some of the displays make me wonder "What were they thinking?" Regardless, I've found the useful ones and ignore the rest . . . until a newbie comes to PriusChat and asks.

Actually, I've added a Scangauge II to get engine coolant and rpm along with real diagnostic data. It is on our list of 'What were they thinking?"

Road noise, my understanding is more sound absorbing material is going into the next model.

Bob Wilson

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Bob:

I'll probably never own one given where I drive and the age group I am in (over 70 now). But, if Toyota can improve the road noise and the visibility, plus make it feel more roadworthy, they should be a hit, especially for commuters.

aja8888 said:

. . .
I'll probably never own one given where I drive and the age group I am in (over 70 now). . .

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LOL! I'm 65 and past surveys reported Prius owners were generally older. Of course in our community, we apply the Lake Woebegone description:
Bob Wilson

So your first post says that TDIClub members are spreading a lot of false information about the Prius. However, you never say what that info is. And your post above acknowledges that the car has poor visibility to the front and rear, a cluster that is difficult to see and doesn't provide useful information, and that road noise is objectionable. In an earlier post you acknowledge that the suspension alignment from the factory isn't optimal, and the car benefits from larger tires.

So if I'm understanding correctly, I might like the Prius as long as I can accept not seeing well out of it, can live with unnecessary and not visible information from the cluster, and can plan on buying a scan gauge, shims for the wheel hubs, larger tires, and soundproofing (along with the effort to install all those) to overcome its greater faults.

Where do I sign?

I welcome you to TDI Club; but I have to say...

This entire thread reads like a laundry list of why I would never buy a Prius...

Relax guys, I'm here to share technical information. For sure, the Prius is not for everyone but it is very fuel efficient and the Jetta hybrid, a first generation hybrid, is a fair start. Now there is a simple rule of thumb to evaluate the efficiency of a hybrid:

• City MPG > Highway MPG

The gold standard are electric vehicles like the "e-Golf" with 126 MPGe city and 105 MPGe highway. I look forward to seeing if VW figures it out for the Jetta hybrid.

As for picking a fight over "Prius myths", take that up with Mr. Google where you can easily find both the myths and answers.

Bob Wilson

Technical information? Simply regurgitating some MPG numbers is not sharing technical information, it's baiting.

The synopsis is the Prius makes a decent city commuter or short range car. They suck at pretty much everything else, as has been established here.

Anything else you want to discuss with relation to a TDI?

So far the only hybrid i've considered is the insight. It's light weight, has a manaul trans and a k-series swap is pretty doable and it will still nearly get 50mpg. That said it's a tin can, fwd, and about as safe as wearing a garbage can while riding a bicycle on the interstate.

bwilson4web said:

LOL! I'm 65 and past surveys reported Prius owners were generally older. Of course in our community, we apply the Lake Woebegone description:

where "all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average,"​

Bob Wilson

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Bob: I'm not sure where you are at, but in these parts, we love our diesels and pickup trucks, young and old folks alike. We have the big, wide roads, high speed limits and the long distances to drive them where they really shine.

(Actually, if my wife would go for it, I would be happy to get another Corvette just for me).

Abacus said:

. . .
The synopsis is the Prius makes a decent city commuter or short range car. . . .

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Actually I found both the 2003 and 2010 easy cross country rides. I set the cruise control and listen to tunes. I typically use interstate truckers as my pacing vehicles since their driving profile is an exact match for 52 MPG. I'm following far enough behind to steer around road debris and don't get anxious if someone cuts in front headed for an exit.

The only time I've noticed a noise problem are some of those concrete interstates in the Chicago area (do they groove them on purpose?) Otherwise, I appreciate the lack of engine vibration and arrive not feeling 'beat up.' So my cross country trips have been:

• a dozen, 750 mile trips in 14 hours - piece of cake, only one refueling and a couple of 'biology' breaks.
• one, 1000 mile round trip in 24 hours - did have to take a late 'cat nap.' When napping in the car, the engine comes on only as needed to keep it warm.

But then you might have noticed I'm kinda of a calm guy who wants to get from A to B and have money in my pocket when I get there.

Bob Wilson

aja8888 said:

Bob: I'm not sure where you are at, but in these parts, we love our diesels and pickup trucks, young and old folks alike. . . .

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Understood as I grew up in Oklahoma where it was nothing to drive 80 miles, each way to pickup 'milk' . . . yea, a six-pack of 'milk.'

Huntsville is a lot like Oklahoma. If I ask for a chicken fried steak, they ask if I want white or brown gravy. If I ask for grits, it can be cheese-grits or plain . . . and never served dried out crusty or 'grits soup' found on the East coast. We have sweet and unsweet tea year round. We lock the car doors during zucchini season. Our BBQ is smoked meats and not BBQ sauce dipped, baked meat. Dr. Pepper is in the Coke machine.

But we also have a lot of 'all hat and no cattle' urban dwellers with pristine pickup trucks used as single rider, commuters. Then there are the four-wheel Jeep owners with baldy tires (as Bill Engvall says, "Here's your sign".)

Bob Wilson

My 2002 Prius had noisy tires. They make a big difference.
They are not for everyone, but obviously some like them.
I was sad that my 2002 fell prey to the Explorer when I gave it to my son.
Over the 190,000 miles it was much less expensive than the VW.
A to B every time. 13 years.
The 2009 VW and 240,000 miles cost at least twice as much per mile to own.
We didn't buy a later model instead of the VW one reason was that spoiler across the rear window.
They make different cars for different people for a reason and purpose.
Obviously needs and desires change since when it was time to "retire either the Prius or the 2009 JSW ( or shift to the son and heir) The Prius traveled and I kept the JSW and bought another one (2013 JSW) for the #1 car.
I don't regret buying the Prius 13 years ago.

Since we have the Argonne Labs benchmarks for the Jetta hybrid, Jetta TDI, and Prius, we can actually plot their rate of fuel consumption during identical parts of the benchmark:

• Jetta hybrid and Prius follow similar fuel burn durations, the hybrid control laws.
• The peak Jetta TDI and Prius fuel burns are nearly identical showing how the Atkinson engine and diesel have nearly identical thermodynamic efficiency.
• The Jetta TDI continues to run but not just because of the 'defeat device.' There is only the engine to sustain power, no matter how low, and that means fuel must be burned.

In engineering, it takes at least three solutions or we don't understand the problem. Then we choose two from: GOOD, FAST, CHEAP:

• NOT GOOD - Jetta TDI because it fails NOx emissions so CHEAP and FAST.
• NOT CHEAP - Jetta hybrid by both price and fuel so GOOD and FAST
• NOT FAST - Prius with the slowest 0-60 times so GOOD and CHEAP

Personally, I think the Jetta hybrid will be VW's salvation. The engine needs work and continue hybrid drive cost reductions and tuning. Now if they'd just put it in a MicroBus body . . .

Bob Wilson

Jetta Hybrids don't sell. And their resale value is lousy, as folks here can attest. '16 Jetta TDI passes emissions with no modifications.

I like the Good/Fast/Cheap concept but it doesn't work here.

Personally I think the Jetta Hyrbid will be like every other hybrid out there, blase' at best...unassuming...boring.

The problem is the Prius has tarnished people to the term 'hyrbid' so there is a stigma attached. They will be a long time trying to reverse that mindset and the current offering does nothing to that regard...unassuming...boring.

In engineering, it takes at least three solutions or we don't understand the problem. Then we choose two from: GOOD, FAST, CHEAP:

• NOT GOOD - Jetta TDI because it fails NOx emissions so CHEAP and FAST.
• NOT CHEAP - Jetta hybrid by both price and fuel so GOOD and FAST
• NOT FAST - Prius with the slowest 0-60 times so GOOD and CHEAP

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I am an engineer and while the above description is used in the field, it is misapplied in this comparison. The TDI is not cheap nor is it fast. The Prius is not cheap or it wouldn't need heavy monetary and incidental subsidies to sell them ($7,500 tax credit, to be increased to $10,000). And based on the conversations here, I would not consider it "Good" either. I can't speak for the Jetta hybrid because I have never been in one, but thanks to the Prius, it's a car I'll avoid due to the stigma anyway.

Do you work for Argonne Labs? You seem to solely reference their material, which quite frankly I couldn't care less about. As some have stated previously, data does not the car make.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Jetta Hybrids don't sell. And their resale value is lousy, as folks here can attest. '16 Jetta TDI passes emissions with no modifications.

I like the Good/Fast/Cheap concept but it doesn't work here.

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There is no such thing as a '16 Jetta TDI...

VW pulled all applications for the 2016 MY TDIs, none will be sold in the US for the foreseeable future.

DubFamily said:

There is no such thing as a '16 Jetta TDI...

VW pulled all applications for the 2016 MY TDIs, none will be sold in the US for the foreseeable future.

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This is incorrect. They will be re-applying, '16s are expected in showrooms by January. Let's not get off track.

The Prius hybrid doesn't get any tax credit from the Feds, all were used up. The plug-in got a credit, but IIRC it's $2500, due to the battery size. I received a $1300 tax credit on my 2009 TDI.

bwilson4web said:

Personally, I think the Jetta hybrid will be VW's salvation. The engine needs work and continue hybrid drive cost reductions and tuning. Now if they'd just put it in a MicroBus body . . .

Bob Wilson

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From a more 'bang for the money' in terms of the laws of physics, the environment and the driving dynamics I hope that VW puts a light duty diesel engine in the MicroBus or any other larger vehicles such as maybe future SUVs (smaller than the current Toureg).


With our long distances and open roads in North America a TDI for larger vehicles under load makes even more sense than in Europe and Japan/South Korea.

tikal said:

From a more 'bang for the money' in terms of the laws of physics, the environment and the driving dynamics I hope that VW puts a light duty diesel engine in the MicroBus or any other larger vehicles such as maybe future SUVs (smaller than the current Toureg).


With our long distances and open roads in North America a TDI for larger vehicles under load makes even more sense than in Europe and Japan/South Korea.

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What tikal said.

The Prius doesn't work for me because I would never get the full benefit of the hybrid power train. My driving is more than 90% highway and haulin ar$e for long periods. I'm also keeping up with the flow of traffic so I need a car that's built for spirited driving and burning up the Autobahn. I log around 1000 miles/week and diesel fits my particular use case better than anything else, including EVs.

Then there's the driving dynamics and MPGs of the Prius. The mileage a Prius gets is laughable considering what a penalty box the car is to drive. I for one LIKE to drive. I look forward to the experience of driving instead of viewing driving as a hassle and a car as just something to get me from point A to point B. As a result I tend to gravitate towards a "driver's car". With any gasoline powered "driver's car" this comes with an unacceptable MPG hit. With my long highway commute and other road trips as part of having a life outside of work, I also need good fuel economy. Downsizing to an econobox gasser including hybrids (read: penalty box) is not an option. With a TDI or other modern turbodiesel car, the great MPGs while "driving it like you stole it" and without needing to specifically drive the car for MPGs come as a bonus. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too. The Prius is simply not a car a driving enthusiast like myself and a lot of TDI owners on this site would want. I would not own a Prius under any circumstances. I honestly don't know of any driving enthusiasts who would actually WANT a Prius as their driver's car. That's OK because the Prius was never marketed to driving enthusiasts. The Prius works for some people especially in stop and go city driving but is simply not a car for ME.

Have fun!

This thread is kinda funny to me as about 3 months ago, I was basically given a 1st gen Prius and in exhange, I had to replace a transmission in a Civic. The downside was, it had a bad cel and most likely had a water pump failure too. The deal never worked out and thought it might be a great commuter just for the fact I wouldn't have to pay for fuel. The deal never worked out and then I thought about the added cost of insurance-we have to insurance each car by themselves, we can't clump them into one like most of you guys can, so for me, it wouldn't be worth it, paying another $1000 a year for insurance.

bwilson4web said:

If the VW fix can turn the engine to idle fuel consumption rates when braking or slowing, it should improve the MPG. We can only hope.

Bob Wilson

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I'm confused. TDIs inject zero fuel when the engine is under negative load (engine braking aka in gear, decelerating). That's better than the idle fuel consumption that you would see coasting in neutral, although the penalty is a reduction of momentum, so it should only be done when the driver wishes to slow down.

Abacus said:

Personally I think the Jetta Hyrbid will be like every other hybrid out there, blase' at best...unassuming...boring.

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You should take one for a test drive. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised that it is neither blase' nor boring. It is unassuming, just like any other Jetta.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

This is incorrect. They will be re-applying, '16s are expected in showrooms by January. Let's not get off track.

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PM a link showing that please? Never heard that update.

DubFamily said:

PM a link showing that please? Never heard that update.

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IIRC, it was discussed during Michael Horn's testimony to congress.

VeeDubTDI said:

You should take one for a test drive. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised that it is neither blase' nor boring. It is unassuming, just like any other Jetta.

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I recall Tomo366 had a Jetta Hybrid for a while. From what he described it drove great like all other Jettas. I recall a major complaint was MPGs under real world driving conditions were a disappointment and nowhere near the advertised MPG numbers. It *might* deliver the advertised MPG numbers when specifically driven for MPGs and under all the right conditions (read: hypermiling techniques required). As usual, YMMV.

VeeDubTDI said:

I'm confused. TDIs inject zero fuel when the engine is under negative load (engine braking aka in gear, decelerating). That's better than the idle fuel consumption that you would see coasting in neutral, although the penalty is a reduction of momentum, so it should only be done when the driver wishes to slow down.

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post-injection during warmups and regens?

DPM said:

post-injection during warmups and regens?

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The only time I've had it inject fuel during over-run was when I was descending Mt. Washington in 1st gear. After the exhaust had cooled down beyond a certain point, the engine would start injecting a little bit of fuel to get temps back up, which resulted in a complete loss of engine braking. I haven't seen it happen in any other driving condition.