Fuel additives

benIV · Aug 13, 2010

i knew it, those jerks

milesstandish · Aug 13, 2010

mojogoes said:
The 'ultra low' obviously has less sulphur ppm than the 'low sulphur' which means that the ultra low has less lubricity than the low sulphur of which the process in which they use for the u/low takes it out..............its supposed give a cleaner burn and have a slightly higher cetane number but it probably carries more aromatics to compensate for the prolonged cracking process to reach the lower ppm of sulpur..........Aromatics create more smoke output (go figure!) a better way to do it would be to do what they do here in the UK and Europe and just add around 5%/10% ester but Oops wait thats biodiesel isn't it................................my bad!!

Last I "heard" LSD and ULSD were produced primarily by hydrotreating/hydrocracking which net results in smaller molecules than going in (the cracking), and where hydrogen displaces sulfur & nitrogen molecules in the output which is usually jet fuel, diesel, and some cut of gasoline (provides high octane). So more of the aromatic compounds getting treated for ULSD will get stuffed with hydrogen. Basically, with ULSD there should be less/fewer aromatics

mojogoes · Aug 23, 2010

dmitripr said:
I'm not sure if ULSD is suppose to have higher cetane number vs LSD. The process that is used to go from LSD to ULSD actually decreases the energy content of the fuel. I'm not an expert ... but this is a quote from Shell's website:

Q7. How does ULSD fuel affect the power and fuel economy of existing diesel cars, trucks and non-road engines and equipment?
A7. Under typical operating conditions, there should be no noticeable impact on overall power using ULSD fuel. Fuel economy may be reduced slightly because the process that removes sulfur also can reduce the energy content of the fuel.

Yes the cracking process to produce ULSD does reduce the lube with in the end product as a diesel fuel and secondly yes it also reduces the energy which is put back into the fuel via aromatics!..........these aromatics/ethers and alcohols add more oxygen in the fuel which is why ULSD diesel falls shorter than LSD on economy...........the more oxygenated additives are added into the production of a diesel fuel will raise the smoke limit / output of an engine to a certain degree.

Quote...
Last I "heard" LSD and ULSD were produced primarily by hydrotreating/hydrocracking which net results in smaller molecules than going in (the cracking), and where hydrogen displaces sulfur & nitrogen molecules in the output which is usually jet fuel, diesel, and some cut of gasoline (provides high octane). So more of the aromatic compounds getting treated for ULSD will get stuffed with hydrogen. Basically, with ULSD there should be less/fewer aromatics

This is true but more aromatics are introduced/blended after the cracking process , keep in mind that when ULSD was introduced and left untreated with aromatics and other additives that the pump duse engines and other newer style diesel engines/vehicle's injection pumps were failing which was mainly down to the low ppm sulphur cracking process..............The cleaner a diesel fuel becomes e.g in having less smoke output the less energy it will have unless this diesel fuel is either treated or made/cracked in a different way hence GTL diesel.

UFO · Aug 23, 2010

dmitripr said:
I'm not sure if ULSD is suppose to have higher cetane number vs LSD. The process that is used to go from LSD to ULSD actually decreases the energy content of the fuel. I'm not an expert ... but this is a quote from Shell's website:

Q7. How does ULSD fuel affect the power and fuel economy of existing diesel cars, trucks and non-road engines and equipment?
A7. Under typical operating conditions, there should be no noticeable impact on overall power using ULSD fuel. Fuel economy may be reduced slightly because the process that removes sulfur also can reduce the energy content of the fuel.

Might help explain why I get better mileage on B100 than on 40 cetane pump diesel (ULSD).

Elfnmagik · Sep 17, 2010

Bump. Discuss.

http://www.mxmproducts.com/index.htm

Derrel H Green · Sep 17, 2010

How

UFO said:
Might help explain why I get better mileage on B100 than on 40 cetane pump diesel (ULSD).

Please explain how you think that you are getting better fuel economy using
a fuel that is known to not have the BTUs that regular ULSD has?

BTW, where are you located?

D

MacBuckeye · Sep 30, 2010

can additives or bio lower fuel temp?

I'm curious if anyone with a VAGCOM has tracked or checked their fuel temp. I recently bought a VAGCOM and started tracking some data on various components- one of them being fuel temp.

Here's what I experienced this morning....
- cold engine 27.0 deg C (or 80.6 deg F)
- after 14 min 32.4 deg C (or 90.3 deg F)
- after 28 min 37.8 deg C (or 100 deg F)
- Outside temp today was 75 deg F

Does anyone think it possible that bio or an additive could lower the fuel temp? I'm using an additive that is supposed to help with thermal stability. The fuel is constantly being pressurized (heated and cooled), which could be causing some harm to the fuel properties and our fuel system. It may be insignificant as the fuel is being replaced with fresh fuel on a regular basis. What I don't know is where exactly this fuel temp reading is coming from. Tank? Before the fuel filter? After the fuel filter? If someone knows where the fuel temp sensor is, let me know.

RebelTDI · Sep 30, 2010

Basically, what you are asking is whether adding additives or BD will significantly alter the specific heat of the fuel, which is the amount of energy it takes to heat the fuel by a degree. Since you only add a few ounces of additive per tank, it would not be significant. Adding a quart of BD to a tank also would not likely be significant, although if you go up to 20% or 50% it could have an effect. I don't know whether the specific heat of BD differs much from D2.

sgoldste01 · Sep 30, 2010

Do you really think that 100 degrees F is a high enough temperature to be concerned about it? That's cooler than the water in the average spa!

Plus 3 Golfer · Sep 30, 2010

When testing whether lubricity meets the ASTM standard of a wear scar of 520 microns or less using the HFRR, the test temperature is 60*C (140*F). So, I guess in AZ when we have those 110*F + days, I should keep the tank full to help mitigate the fuel temperature and make sure I've got my quart of B99 in the tank.

dweisel · Sep 30, 2010

sgoldste01 said:
Do you really think that 100 degrees F is a high enough temperature to be concerned about it? That's cooler than the water in the average spa!

I think if there is any concern over fuel temp. it would be at the rail where the fuel is pressurized. Pressure=heat.

dweisel

62Lincoln · Sep 30, 2010

Deosn't bio have a higher flashpoint than ULSD (and thus the issues with DPF's)?

Cool Breeze · Oct 1, 2010

62Lincoln said:
Deosn't bio have a higher flashpoint than ULSD (and thus the issues with DPF's)?

From what I have read extensive testing has been and is being done in regards to how BD affects the DPF. Presently there is no correlation with BD and premature failure of the DPF. From what little data I've read the byproducts from burning DPF have high oxidative properties and therefore burn off easier.

In my unqualified opinion my only worry with BD would be who well it survives the constant trips around the fuel systems (Tank>>common rail>>back to tank..repeat).

RebelTDI · Oct 1, 2010

In my unqualified opinion my only worry with BD would be who well it survives the constant trips around the fuel systems (Tank>>common rail>>back to tank..repeat).[/QUOTE]

At least we splash mixers don't have to worry about the BD being adequately mixed.

TornadoRed · Oct 1, 2010

Cool Breeze said:
From what I have read extensive testing has been and is being done in regards to how BD affects the DPF. Presently there is no correlation with BD and premature failure of the DPF. From what little data I've read the byproducts from burning DPF have high oxidative properties and therefore burn off easier.

In my unqualified opinion my only worry with BD would be who well it survives the constant trips around the fuel systems (Tank>>common rail>>back to tank..repeat).

The issue is not with the DPF itself, but what happens to the fuel during a regeneration. Raw fuel is injected into the combustion chamber, but is not combusted until it reaches the DPF. Raw fuel can splash on the cylinder walls and can be "scraped" down into the sump where it mixes with the engine oil. Pure ULSD is relatively harmless, but biodiesel can turn into a real mess in the tiny oil passages.

Anyway, the rule of thumb is to use a very low concentration of biodiesel -- B02 or B05 is probably okay, but B20 or higher and I'd strongly recommend sharply reducing the oil change interval.

Cool Breeze · Oct 1, 2010

TornadoRed said:
The issue is not with the DPF itself, but what happens to the fuel during a regeneration. Raw fuel is injected into the combustion chamber, but is not combusted until it reaches the DPF. Raw fuel can splash on the cylinder walls and can be "scraped" down into the sump where it mixes with the engine oil. Pure ULSD is relatively harmless, but biodiesel can turn into a real mess in the tiny oil passages.

Anyway, the rule of thumb is to use a very low concentration of biodiesel -- B02 or B05 is probably okay, but B20 or higher and I'd strongly recommend sharply reducing the oil change interval.

Yep. I read about the oil dilution (& ZDDP) issue as well.

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290

Chevron's response to the issue:
http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=3605

BD and Injector Deposits:
http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2981&q=injectors&category_id=14

TornadoRed · Oct 1, 2010

Thanks, Cool Breeze -- I knew the first linked article was out there somewhere.

62Lincoln · Oct 2, 2010

Here's some more good info from a site dedicated to biodiesel: http://savebiodiesel.com/detail.html

GTIDan · Nov 6, 2010

itchytweed said:
So before anyone gets their undies in a bunch, the idea of using additives is one of those topics that will incite a "religious war". What I have below is not to incite but inform.

VW says no additives. That is convenient for them to do. No decisions needed, no analysis, problem solved. Yet, in the past, VW was in bed with Stanadyne and I won't go and pontificate on that relationship yet I find it to be an interesting one, considering their current stance.

I went and did some research today that I found to be interesting. It is a given that US diesel fuel has far less lubricating properties than European diesel fuel and that the cetane rating is not as high. So, I went and printed out a bunch of MSDS's and did some comparing.

For diesel fuel, I picked on ExxonMobil, Citgo, Speedway/SuperAmerica, Hess, BP and ConocoPhillips. In reading the reports, I found that they list the following chemicals at some level in their fuels: #2 Diesel fuel, Ethylbenzene, Napthalene, Cumene/Isopropylbenzene, Trimethylbenzene, Nonane, Xylene. Mind you that not all the listed chemicals are present in everyone's fuel but one, Citgo, listed the most.

Now on to the more popular additives. PowerService lists: Ethylbenzene, Napthalene, Trimethylbenzenes, Xylene, and Vinyl Acetate (winter). Stanadyne lists: Petroleum Naptha, Napthalene, Trimethybenzenes, and Stoddard Solvent (White Spirit). Opti-Lube XPD lists: Ethylbenzene, Petroleum Naptha, Napthalene, Cumene, Trimethylbenzenes, Xylene, Propylene Glycol Ether, 2-Ethylhexyl Nitrate.

Now, if you compare both the additives and the base fuels, they both list the same chemistries, more or less. This, of course, does not list anything that does not have to be put onto the MSDS that may be present, such as whatever PowerService's "SlickDiesel" is.

So, with this, all additives are doing is putting into the fuel what may already be there, especially the chemicals that have to do with cetane rating improvement. I would honestly expect the refiner to add chemicals to trim and tweak a batch to come into spec using the above chemicals. Now I really don't understand VW's stand on not using additives unless it is used as a quickie dismissal of warranty costs hoping someone will admit to using an additive that has no chance of harming the engine. That is akin to saying that I won't warranty the product you bought from be because you did not use Brand X distilled water but you used Brand Y distilled water yet chemically they are both exactly the same, came from the same plant, but Brand Y was cheaper by $2.00 in the store.

To go along with you report I too contacted Shell, Chevron, ARCO and Conoco/Phillips 76. All indicated they purchase their additive from a third party and all stated that the additive they add is made 'just' for them. One, don't remember which' said the maker is one of the largest in the business.

While all said their diesel lubricity was well under 500 only 76 told me their maximun is 480 microns and that they routinely run well below that. Cetane for Chevron (California) is 52 and 53.7 for Conoco 76. Not sure of the other two.

As the ad said: The good stuff is already in there.

itchytweed · Nov 7, 2010

Now that it is starting to get cooler here, low 30's and upper 20's, I have switched over to PS-W but still am adding the 2-EHN. It will be interesting to see how bad the nailing is at cold start.

sgoldste01 · Nov 7, 2010

What is 2-EHN? And what is nailing at cold start?

itchytweed · Nov 7, 2010

sgoldste01 said:
What is 2-EHN? And what is nailing at cold start?

2-EthylHexyl Nitrate (2-EHN), is a cetane improver. The cetane level (higher is better) is a measure of how well the fuel self-ignites. Since the newer CR engines use multi-pulse injection, this will help the engine fire smoother and be quieter.

The "nailing" I am referring to is the sound of a single shot injection as the fuel combusts and suddenly slams everything - hence the classic diesel sound. It seems that my car will do single shot when cold and then go to multi-pulse once it warms up but so far, all has been quiet.

Hope that helps.

GTIDan · Nov 7, 2010

itchytweed said:
2-EthylHexyl Nitrate (2-EHN), is a cetane improver. The cetane level (higher is better) is a measure of how well the fuel self-ignites. Since the newer CR engines use multi-pulse injection, this will help the engine fire smoother and be quieter.

The "nailing" I am referring to is the sound of a single shot injection as the fuel combusts and suddenly slams everything - hence the classic diesel sound. It seems that my car will do single shot when cold and then go to multi-pulse once it warms up but so far, all has been quiet.

Hope that helps.

This information is exactly what the fellow at Conoco/Phillips 76 told me. I mentioned to him that my TDI seems to sound significantly quieter when I use 76 diesel. He laughed and said thats because of the high Cetane level (53.7) of their diesel.

itchytweed · Nov 7, 2010

GTIDan said:
This information is exactly what the fellow at Conoco/Phillips 76 told me. I mentioned to him that my TDI seems to sound significantly quieter when I use 76 diesel. He laughed and said thats because of the high Cetane level (53.7) of their diesel.

Wowsers!!! Now only if the goofballs in D.C. get their act together, raise lubricity requirements, raise minimum cetane to at least 50, and get rid of boutique fuels (both gas and diesel. Personally, I would like to tell CARB to shove it!!!

Biffster · Nov 7, 2010

GTIDan said:
This information is exactly what the fellow at Conoco/Phillips 76 told me. I mentioned to him that my TDI seems to sound significantly quieter when I use 76 diesel. He laughed and said thats because of the high Cetane level (53.7) of their diesel.

Wow! 53?! We have a Conoco I drive by 2-3 times per week. I never thought to give them a try, mainly because they're $0.25/gal higher than Murphy (Walmart) that claims a Cetane of "around 50."

I've never heard of a station give such a specific Cetane rating (i.e. "53.7"). That level of specificity sounds like they have actually done some testing. I'll give it a shot and see if I can notice a difference.

Of course, this is in Alabama, not Cali, so it might be different here.

i64w2gohome · Nov 7, 2010

The highest cetane I can find - and trust - within 10 miles of my normal driving patterns is 45 at a local Shell. Just down the street from this station is an Exxon that has 47 stickers, but I've never seen anyone fill up there.

tdiatlast · Nov 8, 2010

Biffster said:
Wow! 53?! We have a Conoco I drive by 2-3 times per week. I never thought to give them a try, mainly because they're $0.25/gal higher than Murphy (Walmart) that claims a Cetane of "around 50."

I've never heard of a station give such a specific Cetane rating (i.e. "53.7"). That level of specificity sounds like they have actually done some testing. I'll give it a shot and see if I can notice a difference.

Of course, this is in Alabama, not Cali, so it might be different here.

You're right. Reading this thread, it's pretty clear that there are major regional differences in fuel...assuming the pump sticker is even accurate to what's in the ground.

GTIDan · Nov 8, 2010

Biffster said:
Wow! 53?! We have a Conoco I drive by 2-3 times per week. I never thought to give them a try, mainly because they're $0.25/gal higher than Murphy (Walmart) that claims a Cetane of "around 50."

I've never heard of a station give such a specific Cetane rating (i.e. "53.7"). That level of specificity sounds like they have actually done some testing. I'll give it a shot and see if I can notice a difference.

Of course, this is in Alabama, not Cali, so it might be different here.

Here is a copy of my post where I explain how and where I obtained the Cetane number to which you speak.

First I called Conoco/Phillips 76 consumer affairs at 800.527.5476 and asked my question (What is the average lubricity of 76 diesel in California?) I was told she did not have that information but would connect me with someone who would know. It turned out that someone was located in Oklahoma 877.445.9198. I asked my question again. He said the person I need to speak with is Barry Duffin, head of lubricants located in Long Beach, CA 567.290.1533.

What I learned..........
76 Diesel sold in California has a MAXIMUM scar rate of 480 microns and is almost always well below that. Remember he said a MAXIMUM. The Cetane number is 53.7 and according to him independent tests have shown no one has a higher Cetane number in California than 76. Also interesting is that he also confirmed that they buy their additive from a third party which according to him is the largest maker of such additives in the US and that their package is proprietary to them and contains a anti static compound for safety. Never heard of that one before.
Lastly I asked what sort of Cetane rating does your fuel have sold outside of California and he said it runs in the mid 40s.....the lubricity is the same.
Winter blend starts shipping the first of November here in California.

Alabama? No idea but I wish you good luck

Fuel additives

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