VW Rejecting Non-Clean Titles?

psd1 · Sep 28, 2017

I'm not so sure that there is an intentional slow roll on the Salvage title issue, I think there are a variety of reasons for the delay. To include a system that is ripe with the ability to be defrauded, and opportunity for scheisters to profit and the probability that VW doesn't have as many folks on staff to handle these claims as they did when things first started.

I still think we are going to have to be patient. I did talk to legal counsel on my salvage title that had been claimed ineligible and they said that the group reviewing the claims is taking them based on the order they were received, I purposely waited to see what the outcome was for other folks. Hopefully we will see some movement sooner than later.

surfstar · Sep 28, 2017

mathew said:
Hey guys, 2 questions, I have 6 salvage history cars total, 1st one went thru like butter! but that was 6 months ago. so i went and bought 5 more. all are in limbo and from what I am reading and hearing it just a waiting game. I have 2 of them that technically fall in the exclusion period ( that few months on the agreement) is there any chance this will fly eventually too? 2nd ? i bought a 2015 Passat, portal said it or allowed me to make a claim for emissions modification , which is what I wanted and was going to keep it. A month went buy after submitting and I get an email saying its ineligible for the modification. Any idea why ??? i have appealed it but the response said it will take several weeks for a response. I bought a second for my wife on the same premise and am going to sell it now instead. Any help is appreciated greatly

Technically, you're screwed on those 2. Why would you buy those?

It sounds like the 2015 Passat was already fixed - did you not check? You can get the remaining 1/3 restitution when it gets the second fix (applies to 2015s).

You must be very careful about the status of salvage titles and repairs before buying a used TDI to "flip". I've passed on many.

jibberjive · Sep 28, 2017

I posted rather low-key earlier in this thread, over 4 months ago. Now, after months and months of no resolution, this is looking like it might be a good, viable solution to those who are getting screwed with.

If someone buys an eligible car right now, they have 30 days after the purchase to opt out of the settlement agreement. If you feel that VW is doing something unethical with the rejection/stalling of the salvage titled cars, you could technically sell the car to your wife/whomever and have her opt out of the settlement to pursue outside legal action.

I haven't kept track of many of the cases where people opted out originally, but I do remember that the one or two that did I did see opt out, who used an outside lawyer, they got approx. the same amount as the settlement IIRC. I have a feeling VW would be much more expeditious in handling a separate lawsuit from a 3rd party attorney (whereas now they have pretty much no incentive/penalty to get these more complex claims done asap).

In the lawsuit, one could use this thread as justification for opting out instead of submitting a claim under the settlement, and, with all of the evidence here of people who are getting the runaround, I don't think VW would have much to say (and perhaps that would motivate VW to move the rest of the people here along as well).

Just worst case scenario recourse, if you feel everything else is exhausted and feel that it is time to hold them to account.

ujames · Sep 29, 2017

jibberjive said:
I haven't kept track of many of the cases where people opted out originally, but I do remember that the one or two that did I did see opt out, who used an outside lawyer, they got approx. the same amount as the settlement IIRC. I have a feeling VW would be much more expeditious in handling a separate lawsuit from a 3rd party attorney (whereas now they have pretty much no incentive/penalty to get these more complex claims done asap).

If this is the case, then why did all these folks that opted out get back into the settlement? According to that court document, there are a number of folks that revoked their prior opt out.

jibberjive · Sep 29, 2017

ujames said:
If this is the case, then why did all these folks that opted out get back into the settlement? According to that court document, there are a number of folks that revoked their prior opt out.

Admittedly my pool of opt-out cases that I saw resolved were confined to the one or two cases/threads on here where the guy said he opted out and he said his lawyer had it resolved a few weeks later, at what was assumed was a similar price to the settlement. Since that was self-reported, and the guy seemed like he had something to prove by posting it, that should probably be taken with a grain of salt as well.

I hadn't seen that document before you posted it, and I haven't yet started researching/talking to others who are currently in the opt-out pool. This is good info to have, thanks. It would be nice if this is viable recourse for the people that VW are playing with, but that has yet to be determined (for me at least).

fookin · Oct 3, 2017

Is it possible that VW will choose not to buy back salvage title cars that are currently attached to a buyback claim if they hold out and hit some ~80% mark in Sept 2018?

Jdtdi2 · Oct 3, 2017

I own a 2015 Jetta that was wrecked in November 2016 and was rebuilt in February 2017. Like others here, my claim has been on hold for some time.

I had my attorney contact VW, the FTC and the class counsel about my claim. He found that VW has taken the position that they do not have to buy back any vehicles salvaged after September 2015, as rebuilders do not fit into the class that the agreement was intended to compensate. The class counsel is arguing that they do (whether they are arguing that all should be bought back or allowing for certain exclusions is unknown). Negotiations are currently taking place, and no agreement has been reached.

A part of why the settlement terms were so favorable was because VW was under enormous pressure from the public to make TDI owners whole. There is no public pressure at all regarding our branded title claims. We certainly don't have the power of the initial class, but VW's brand is already tarnished, and there are enough of us to apply some pressure.

I've contacted Jalopnik, a site that publishes more obscure auto news and has published some interesting Dieselgate articles in the past, to suggest that they cover this story. I'm going to suggest that anyone with a non-clean title claim do the same and suggest other ideas of what we can do apply pressure on VW to honor the settlement agreement.

If VW has their way, not a single one of our vehicles branded after September 2015 will be bought back.

duratitus · Oct 3, 2017

Jdtdi2 said:
..... He found that VW has taken the position that they do not have to buy back any vehicles salvaged after September 2015, as rebuilders do not fit into the class........

Who did your attorney speak with that told him this?

I find this hard to believe. Even if rebuilders are not elligible, the vehicles themselves would still be eligible if they are still legally operating on the highways.

Did your attorney get anything in writing?

fookin · Oct 3, 2017

Jdtdi2 said:
I own a 2015 Jetta that was wrecked in November 2016 and was rebuilt in February 2017. Like others here, my claim has been on hold for some time.

I had my attorney contact VW, the FTC and the class counsel about my claim. He found that VW has taken the position that they do not have to buy back any vehicles salvaged after September 2015, as rebuilders do not fit into the class that the agreement was intended to compensate...

I also find it hard to believe VW is taking this position as the language in the settlement nearly explicitly allows for people buying up salvage cars from auction and selling back. Words have meaning (writing rhetorically).

Jdtdi2 · Oct 3, 2017

duratitus said:
Who did your attorney speak with that told him this?

I find this hard to believe. Even if rebuilders are not elligible, the vehicles themselves would still be eligible if they are still legally operating on the highways.

Did your attorney get anything in writing?

Why would VW do anything other than take this position? There is absolutely nothing to lose by doing so and much potential gain. Also, negotiations often start with two extreme positions with subsequent discussions moving both parties closer to the middle. This is the exact position that I would expect VW to take in these negotiations.

This was all based on phone conversations. I don't think that expecting something to be put into writing while negotiations are ongoing is reasonable.

Jdtdi2 · Oct 3, 2017

fookin said:
I also find it hard to believe VW is taking this position as the language in the settlement nearly explicitly allows for people buying up salvage cars from auction and selling back. Words have meaning (writing rhetorically).

They are arguing that claims for these vehicles are against the spirit of the settlement. It is possible to completely comply with the letter of the law, but not the spirit, in which case you are wrong. This is a well-established legal principle.

Jdtdi2 · Oct 3, 2017

duratitus said:
Who did your attorney speak with that told him this?

I find this hard to believe. Even if rebuilders are not elligible, the vehicles themselves would still be eligible if they are still legally operating on the highways.

Did your attorney get anything in writing?

RE: your first question. This came from conversations with Sullivan and Cromwell (VW's lead counsel) and Hagens Berman (part of the class counsel).

fookin · Oct 3, 2017

Jdtdi2 said:
They are arguing that claims for these vehicles are against the spirit of the settlement. It is possible to completely comply with the letter of the law, but not the spirit, in which case you are wrong. This is a well-established legal principle.

I see what you're saying but I would think that buying back salvage cars that were recently acquired from auction are within the spirit of the law and settlement because they are registered and licensed cars driving on the road.

I considered the letter vs spirit when I acquired my cars and believed that if I didn't acquire them, somebody else would (the next lower bidder at auction), and that that was an obvious consideration when they wrote the letter of the law. If they missed such an obvious outcome then some attorneys go duped because they could have easily written in clauses to avoid buying back salvage cars after 2015 or 2016 (or whatever date). ...just my thoughts.

Jdtdi2 · Oct 3, 2017

fookin said:
I see what you're saying but I would think that buying back salvage cars that were recently acquired from auction are within the spirit of the law and settlement because they are registered and licensed cars driving on the road.
I considered the letter vs spirit when I acquired my cars and believed that if I didn't acquire them, somebody else would (the next lower bidder at auction), and that that was an obvious consideration when they wrote the letter of the law. If they missed such an obvious outcome then some attorneys go duped because they could have easily written in clauses to avoid buying back salvage cars after 2015 or 2016 (or whatever date). ...just my thoughts.

I'm not disagreeing with you-I'm in the same boat. I mainly posted this so everyone where will know that there's a non-zero possibility that none of our cars will be bought back. Since that's the case, we need to do anything we can to argue that they should be. I don't want to sit around counting on class counsel to take care of us only to receive bad news a few months from now and wish we'd taken action on our own.

duratitus · Oct 3, 2017

I have spoken to our class counsel on several occasions regarding salvage or otherwise branded title claims, and was assured each time that the only issue VW was having with these was due to issues regarding restitution being paid out twice for the same vehicle, and fraudulent claims that were processed and paid out early in the settlement.

Class counsel never indicated that VW was trying to reject claims for cars branded after 9/18/15.

I appreciate Jdtdi2 posting what he heard from his attorney, and I agree that the lawyers will more than likely come to a resolution somewhere in the middle.

Because VW already agreed to the wording in the original settlement, I think they are well aware that denying post 9/18/15 claim across the board would result in an outpouring of protests and lawsuits, so I don't think it will come down to that.

I've never said there was a zero chance that branded claims will be denied. As with all investments, there is always a risk, but from what I've been told, VW and the class counsel are currently waiting for the Claims Review Committee to make a descision regarding these claims before they will move forward with processing.

ujames · Oct 4, 2017

Jdtdi2 said:
I don't want to sit around counting on class counsel to take care of us only to receive bad news a few months from now and wish we'd taken action on our own.

Who's your attorney?

Would it make any difference if we all coordinate to get a common legal representation?

single94 · Oct 4, 2017

Rebuilds

I see the argument, however if a re-builder fixes a car and sells it to the general public it is on the road driving, why would it not fall under the settlement? Its still not fixed, still polluting and in some states will not be register-able.

"He found that VW has taken the position that they do not have to buy back any vehicles salvaged after September 2015, as rebuilders do not fit into the class that the agreement was intended to compensate. The class counsel is arguing that they do (whether they are arguing that all should be bought back or allowing for certain exclusions is unknown). Negotiations are currently taking place, and no agreement has been reached."

I heard a judge is working on this to come up with a resolution, which judge is it?, would be great if many can contact his office, seems any loophole vw can use now that many cars are turned in, they will try (multiple claims, research for indefinate amount of time, if any emissions equipment removed during repairs in the past, feel free to include others in a seperate thread.

When you call in now that 09-14 can be fixed, they steer you towards getting a fix when you clearly have a buyback, to wait on filing the appeal with crc or providing this information to do so simply say read the long form. If anything is to be done it needs to be put out there. (kiss format for all). Keep it simple stupid.

If we want to apply pressure, the info needs to be readily available to all, so all the same offices are called, mail the same news agencies see if they want to write about this?, same attorneys.

What is the proper way to file an appeal successfully?, I filed an appeal via email no response, do others get a response via email?, Do you have to send in the mail to 3 attorneys, will they respond to let u know its received and in process. It can be a 6 month process but if you dont do it now and keep waiting, just delays all.

Anyone had success with appeals, how long did it take to complete. outcome. It needs press, and attention, the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

Again Keep it simple, please provide anything you can so something will get done.

psd1 · Oct 4, 2017

Received 9/20/2017 after I emailed all required documentation to appeal denial on my 2011 Touareg:

Shawn -
My name is Lisa Petak, and I am an attorney at Keller Rohrback. The managing partner at my firm has been named to the Plaintiff Steering Committee, and we represent owners of TDI Volkswagens. I hope I can help.

It looks like you have counsel helping with this, and are just awaiting a determination from the CRC. Those appeals are heard in the order they are received, so all you need to do is patiently wait. Once your file has been opened for review, you'll get an email telling you that your appeal has been received.
Best,
Lisa

VW “Clean Diesel” MDL No. 2672 | Plaintiffs Steering Committee
info@vwclasscounsel.com

Jdtdi2 · Oct 4, 2017

duratitus said:
I have spoken to our class counsel on several occasions regarding salvage or otherwise branded title claims, and was assured each time that the only issue VW was having with these was due to issues regarding restitution being paid out twice for the same vehicle, and fraudulent claims that were processed and paid out early in the settlement.

Class counsel never indicated that VW was trying to reject claims for cars branded after 9/18/15.

I appreciate Jdtdi2 posting what he heard from his attorney, and I agree that the lawyers will more than likely come to a resolution somewhere in the middle.

Because VW already agreed to the wording in the original settlement, I think they are well aware that denying post 9/18/15 claim across the board would result in an outpouring of protests and lawsuits, so I don't think it will come down to that.

I've never said there was a zero chance that branded claims will be denied. As with all investments, there is always a risk, but from what I've been told, VW and the class counsel are currently waiting for the Claims Review Committee to make a descision regarding these claims before they will move forward with processing.

I'm going to disagree with you here, not to be difficult, but in attempt to work with everyone here to help all of our cases.

I'm not seeing the possibility of an outpouring of protests here. How many people does this impact? The 20 or so people on this thread? I'm sure there are others (perhaps many others), but I've found no where else online that this issue is being discussed, and I doubt the number is all that high. I also doubt VW is concerned about a handful of angry people that have passively stood by for months already without raising a stink. What reason do they have to not assume that we'll do nothing other than start a new thread on TDI Club to complain (which is about all that any of us have done so far).

As for lawsuits: I don't see that happening either. Once the two sides reach an agreement, it's going to go before the judge. Once the judge agrees, you can't sue without opting out. I mean, you can, but VW will simply file a motion to dismiss based on the fact that this issue has already been addressed and settled in another court. The case will be thrown out based on that fact. What would happen if the guy who stripped his Jetta filed suit, arguing that he complied with the letter of the law? Thrown out because Judge Breyer already ruled on that issue.

Yes, we could transfer ownership of our vehicles and have the new owner opt out within 30 days, but what's the cost of that? And what's the cost of hiring an attorney? And what's the probability of winning anything? If I were VW with their high powered attorneys, I'd tell all of us to bring it on. Thinking that VW is afraid of our outcry or our lawsuits, I think, is seriously overplaying our hand.

This is why I think we should be at least talking about ideas to bolster our cases rather than just waiting.

Jdtdi2 · Oct 4, 2017

ujames said:
Who's your attorney?
Would it make any difference if we all coordinate to get a common legal representation?

I don't have his permission to post personal info here, but I will ask.

Yes, I do think we need our own representation. And we'd be stronger as a class than we would be individually.

Has anyone heard of cases pending regarding non-clean titles? There may be some out there.

Jdtdi2 · Oct 4, 2017

single94 said:
I see the argument, however if a re-builder fixes a car and sells it to the general public it is on the road driving, why would it not fall under the settlement? Its still not fixed, still polluting and in some states will not be register-able.

These are purely my thoughts. The two major players on the plaintiff side are the EPA and the FTC. The FTC is there to protect consumers. I can see the FTC declining to advocate for us, saying that we are not the people they intended to protect. The EPA is there to protect the environment. I can see the EPA arguing that the cars that are legally on the road need to be removed or fixed regardless of when they were salvaged.

I can see the decision being that we will be offered a fix (to satisfy the EPA) without a buyback option (because the FTC doesn't care). This would be meeting in the middle.

I wouldn't be happy with this at all. Would anyone here actually be?

fookin · Oct 4, 2017

Jdtdi2 said:
These are purely my thoughts...

...I wouldn't be happy with this at all. Would anyone here actually be?

Uh, no. I wouldn't be happy with that and I don't see how the settlement could be reversed/changed that drastically.

duratitus · Oct 4, 2017

RE: Jdtdi2,
There are a couple things to keep in mind here.

First, you mentioned selling the car so a new owner can opt out within 30 days. - This is completely unnecessary because any person who's claim is rejected by VW automatically reserves their rights to sue VW independent from the class action suit.
The only people who give up their rights to sue VW independent of the class, are those who are elligible, and choose not to opt out.

I am aware of a group of owners who are pursuing legal action over several hundred branded title vehicles, to try and pressure VW to accept these as eligible claims.
I have not heard an update regarding this case for several weeks, but at the time they were in the preliminary stages, and we're planning to go public with the lawsuit to try and get as many branded title owners on board as possible.

I have chosen not to join any legal action outside of the class at this time, because the claim submission period still has 11 months to go, and because council at Leiff Cabraser says they believe this will be resolved by the end of the year.

If these branded title claims are not resolved 6 - 8 months from now, I will be happy to join and legal action to force VW to accept these claims.

In discussions I have had with Phong Nguyen @ Leiff Cabraser, he has stated that the negotiations are not about the wording of the agreement but rather how the claims Review Committee will apply that wording to branded Title claims.
Remember in the case of the guy who tried to return the stripped Volkswagen Golf, even though the judge sided with VW's decision to reject a car in that condition, the wording of the agreement remained the same. The judge simply stated that a stripped TDI was not in line with the "Spirit" of the settlement.

According to Mr. Nguyen, the current issue has to do with how the Claims Review Committee will balance the "Spirit" vs. the "Wording" of the settlement agreement to branded title claims.

Remember David S. Stellings from Lieff Cabraser is one of the 3 final decision makers on the Claims Review Committee.

With this in mind, I believe the best thing we can do at this point is to keep calling Lieff Cabraser and demand that they hold their ground, and stick to the wording of the settlement agreement, rather than letting VW's lawyers get away with denying claims over the "Spirit" of the order.

miltak · Oct 4, 2017

single94 said:
I see the argument, however if a re-builder fixes a car and sells it to the general public it is on the road driving, why would it not fall under the settlement? Its still not fixed, still polluting and in some states will not be register-able.

"He found that VW has taken the position that they do not have to buy back any vehicles salvaged after September 2015, as rebuilders do not fit into the class that the agreement was intended to compensate. The class counsel is arguing that they do (whether they are arguing that all should be bought back or allowing for certain exclusions is unknown). Negotiations are currently taking place, and no agreement has been reached."

I heard a judge is working on this to come up with a resolution, which judge is it?, would be great if many can contact his office, seems any loophole vw can use now that many cars are turned in, they will try (multiple claims, research for indefinate amount of time, if any emissions equipment removed during repairs in the past, feel free to include others in a seperate thread.

When you call in now that 09-14 can be fixed, they steer you towards getting a fix when you clearly have a buyback, to wait on filing the appeal with crc or providing this information to do so simply say read the long form. If anything is to be done it needs to be put out there. (kiss format for all). Keep it simple stupid.

If we want to apply pressure, the info needs to be readily available to all, so all the same offices are called, mail the same news agencies see if they want to write about this?, same attorneys.

What is the proper way to file an appeal successfully?, I filed an appeal via email no response, do others get a response via email?, Do you have to send in the mail to 3 attorneys, will they respond to let u know its received and in process. It can be a 6 month process but if you dont do it now and keep waiting, just delays all.

Anyone had success with appeals, how long did it take to complete. outcome. It needs press, and attention, the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

Again Keep it simple, please provide anything you can so something will get done.

Can you please tell me where did you hear,that judge is working on it?
Dan

lvrpl · Oct 4, 2017

Jdtdi2 said:
RE: your first question. This came from conversations with Sullivan and Cromwell (VW's lead counsel) and Hagens Berman (part of the class counsel).

Do you mind sharing the name of the person at Sullivan and Cromwell that your attorney spoke with? Or even the name of the person at Hagens Berman?

I think it would be worthwhile for another one of us to contact those people and see if we get the same answer. Seems important given that multiple other people at the class counsel have told some of us something very different. I'd be interested to see if we can get anyone to say again that VW is trying to reject all branded title claims.

psd1 · Oct 9, 2017

duratitus said:
RE: Jdtdi2,
There are a couple things to keep in mind here.

First, you mentioned selling the car so a new owner can opt out within 30 days. - This is completely unnecessary because any person who's claim is rejected by VW automatically reserves their rights to sue VW independent from the class action suit.
The only people who give up their rights to sue VW independent of the class, are those who are elligible, and choose not to opt out.

I am aware of a group of owners who are pursuing legal action over several hundred branded title vehicles, to try and pressure VW to accept these as eligible claims.
I have not heard an update regarding this case for several weeks, but at the time they were in the preliminary stages, and we're planning to go public with the lawsuit to try and get as many branded title owners on board as possible.

I have chosen not to join any legal action outside of the class at this time, because the claim submission period still has 11 months to go, and because council at Leiff Cabraser says they believe this will be resolved by the end of the year.

If these branded title claims are not resolved 6 - 8 months from now, I will be happy to join and legal action to force VW to accept these claims.

In discussions I have had with Phong Nguyen @ Leiff Cabraser, he has stated that the negotiations are not about the wording of the agreement but rather how the claims Review Committee will apply that wording to branded Title claims.
Remember in the case of the guy who tried to return the stripped Volkswagen Golf, even though the judge sided with VW's decision to reject a car in that condition, the wording of the agreement remained the same. The judge simply stated that a stripped TDI was not in line with the "Spirit" of the settlement.

According to Mr. Nguyen, the current issue has to do with how the Claims Review Committee will balance the "Spirit" vs. the "Wording" of the settlement agreement to branded title claims.

Remember David S. Stellings from Lieff Cabraser is one of the 3 final decision makers on the Claims Review Committee.

With this in mind, I believe the best thing we can do at this point is to keep calling Lieff Cabraser and demand that they hold their ground, and stick to the wording of the settlement agreement, rather than letting VW's lawyers get away with denying claims over the "Spirit" of the order.

This.

Can you provide the phone number/email for this firm please.

Lightflyer1 · Oct 9, 2017

Did your Google finger break?

https://www.lieffcabraser.com/tag/volkswagen/

duratitus · Oct 9, 2017

^^^ Exactly.

Their contact info is all over the place in this settlement since they are the ones who headed up the dieselgate litigation in the firstplace.

psd1 · Oct 9, 2017

Lightflyer1 said:
Did your Google finger break?

https://www.lieffcabraser.com/tag/volkswagen/

I got a google finger for you...

duratitus said:
^^^ Exactly.

Their contact info is all over the place in this settlement since they are the ones who headed up the dieselgate litigation in the firstplace.

I'm sorry to be a pain, I was actually hoping that you had something other than a general email or telephone number, perhaps one that dealt with the Salvage title issue. Please accept my sincerest apologies.

Or, you could just not respond and I'll filter through 1300 different threads and emails.

Lightflyer1 · Oct 9, 2017

Give me a break! It is easy to Google and call them and ask to speak to the person you want. Most of the attorneys there I have spoken with don't give out or want their number given out publicly. There is no number for salvage titles, only a general one for everything. No need to sift through when an easy search will find what you want in seconds. Not to mention you only asked for their phone number and email. When I provided that from an easy search you get upset? It is always the other person's fault for some people. Don't ask others to do for you what you can easily do for yourself.

VW Rejecting Non-Clean Titles?

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