Velocity Adventures at H2R

Hi gang

I'm going to be instructing for VA this Saturday at Harris Hill Road, and was curious if any of you were planning on being there. I'd love to work with a TDI driver. Otherwise, I'll take what I can get.

Shoot me a PM if you're going to be there, letting me know which run group you're in. We'll figure out a way to hook up at the track.

hehe, I don't check here often. I was out there, I was always too busy giving passengers rides to grid up with you. Wanted to see how my lil golf did against the cup.

Did you get any lap times?

Was that your Golf? I wasn't sure if you were "one of us" or not.

I got down into the 1:41 range until I started taking passengers. I dropped about a second per extra body. I did one run in the second group (my student was too fatigued to run the last session) with three people in the car. Looking at the video, I dipped one lap at 1:43. I'll put that video up on YouTube. I'll have to cut the first few laps though...too long.

Next time, let me know. They're repaving this week, but there's a shootout coming labor day weekend. I'll probably come out with the Porsche and Hoosiers, although I might have a better chance in the Cup depending on how the categories are set.

hehe yea, I just don't check here too often.

I was dropping 1:43.3's with passenger. Just a TDI with kerma tune, 3" exhaust, and race pipe. Well, shine suspension/sway and 225 star specs all the way around. She pulls just over 1.3 g's in the turns, just don't have the power for the straights. Yet...

FMIC, 17/22 are in the garage, 3bar map is on order, and should put in an order for the clutch and injectors hopefully this next month.

It's not too bad of a car to run out there. Drove from Houston to H2R, ran 4 sessions, drove back, and still had enough fuel for the drive to work this week.

If I would have taken the Noble out, it would have been 5 tanks of fuel just for Saturday!

Just a couple laps showing my student the line and total lack of power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQgGtWMRz9s
Only got 1.1g's here, have some data with up to 1.3 from last month. But those were solo runs. I never got a session alone here, most of the time they were loading me up with students. Two grown men plus myself can make for a very slow TDI....

1:43.3 is the lap time if you can't read it after youtube compression.

I still have no power on the straight either without my flash. You should be about where I am on power to weight. However, I think I can shave a second off that for you with a few little changes. Watch my line on this video from the day before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZJT3QPEOVc

Coming up the hill (T4), you're taking the turn a bit early, doing the traditional line they've been teaching. I found a difference of 1.2 seconds with simply doing an extremely late apex, holding to the right up the hill, then getting on the power early. I gained 1.2 seconds and 4 mph on the following straight. This not only gives you an extra quarter second or so on throttle from T6 to T5 to enter the complex, but the next straight as well.

On that straight, it looks like you're braking a bit early, i.e. just before T3 into T2. I wait until the curbing at T3. I lift just before it, then at the curbing in the dogleg to the left. That's with stock brakes. If I had pads, I'd wait another beat.

Finally, down the start/finish straight, I'm going full throttle through both doglegs (T1 and T11). It seems like you may be lifting. Yes, it pushes you to the left side of the track going into T10, but the extra 3-4 mph you get on the straight more than makes up for the speed you get through the slow hairpin.

With your suspension, you should be able to maximize that. Mine's totally stock and a good bit heavier than yours and my car can do it.

Interestingly, if I had a car with some aero on it, I might do the line you did as a defensive line. It looks like a good line for holding someone off, although I think they could get you going from T4 to T3.

Maybe next time, bring the Noble and I'll bring the Porsche. That should be interesting. I'm thinking about heading out for the Labor Day event.

Yea, only my 2nd time there and I don't normally run full sessions due to the lack of power, just not as much fun after running it in my 300hp Exige.

I am flat through T1 and T11 though. Tires are quiet through 1 with just a little chatter through 11, no where near any sort of limit. I think I still have some to gain at 10, 8 and 7. Really wish I got a session in by myself and it wasn't so hot out there. Those back to back sessions started getting to me.

I tried going deep into 4 last time I was out there, data showed a loss of 1.2 seconds with only a 2mph gain on the straight. I do agree about the braking at 3. I normally brake just after the apex at 3 as the brakes hold good (VR6 calipers/rotors with carbotech AX6 pads). I just didn't want to get close to the edge when trying to show the student. Was reserving some of the limit to be able to talk to them.

If I had a touch more grip, I'd probably pull right for entry to T10 as well and gain a little speed going into T8. With a stock suspension, I had to go wide. Your grip certainly helps a lot there.

It's interesting that you lost 1.2 seconds where I gained it. Maybe I can catch a ride with you next time you're out and I can get a full experience of what you're doing. I've had only my TDI Cup out there. After trying it in the Porsche, it'll be a different story I'm sure.

I'm envious of the Exige. Same HP as my Boxster, but a lot less weight. That's gotta be insane.

Yea, the Exige was a blast. I just started pushing it alot and each weekend was costing me a $300 front splitter and it would just be a matter of time before I broke that eggshell body on it.

1900lbs, 292rwhp, 0-60 in under 3, 1.8g's of grip running RA1's. She was fun.

Next time we are out, you are more than welcome to drive the VW. That way I can have your data in the same car. That's what we do currently, helps narrow down where the time is being lost.

I probably won't track the Noble again, it's up for sale and don't want to risk it. Already cost me a motor up at MSR-C first track day. Good ol oil starvation from the English car... Really needs a dry sump on it. But since I'm not gonna keep it, that's alot of work and money to throw into it.

I've put two motors in the Boxster for the same reason. While it was still stock, I was on the Shenandoah Circuit at Summit Point going through the Karrussel. 2Gs left hand turns after braking to 60 from 120 is a recipe for disaster on the M96 motor.

So I put a 3.4L Carrera motor in it along with a PSS9 and a few other things. I blew that one up on the main circuit at SP. The replacement was also a Carrera motor, but this time I got the oil baffles in there from the X51 package. This one has lasted, although I still wish I had a dry sump.

How much for the Noble? I'm not sure I can even fit in it, but it's a beautiful car.

I'm pretty sure you will fit. I'm 5'10" and with the seat all the way back I can't even touch the pedals, much less push them down.

Biggest issue would be headroom. I only have 3" between my head and the roof. But with a helmet on I've never hit my head on it. Much easier to get in and out of than a Lotus, and tons more comfortable on the street.

Here is my post on it over on the noble forums. Asking 50k, really need to get it gone so I can start building the powerplant for my Toniq.

Noble M12 GTO 3R

I can go through everything it would need for the track as well as the differences in the M12, GTO, 3R, and M400 if interested.

PS, I'll take just about anything in trade plus cash to help offset tax value or to save someone from having to sell something first. Or I could trade for a GT3 RS or Cup, the Toniq could wait if I picked up a GT3

I'm slightly familiar with the M400, but I'd be interested in the differences, and whether or not you've done the oil pan. :wink:

For something like this, my Boxsera is up for trade. I have the 3.4L Carrera motor with just a few thousand miles on it, X51 oil pan, headers, cats, Borla exhaust (best sounding car at the track, ever), PSS9, chipped to 322 HP, Spec clutch (and a spare upgraded one in the closet), intake scoops, F1 canister air filter, three sets of wheels (R1R, snow tires, and biiiiiiig Hoosiers).

This will catch a GT3 and really annoy them with the right driver. They'll ultimately pull you on the straights, but in the corners, they'll hate you.

For example, last year, the Aston Martin Owners' Club came to Summit Point. They had one of the Porsche factory drivers from Holland there as their guest instructor. He was driving a Maclaren SLR in the instructor session. Coming through T10 onto the straight, I felt the ground shaking. My buddy who was in the passenger seat was watching the mirror with his jaw dropped. The Mac was shaking the ground as he passed us down the straight. Heavy braking into T1, rocketing through T2, on the limit through T3, and then The Chute at 90+, coming into T5 we were under the massive rear spoiler/airbrake. I was on his butt through to T9 where his long legs and massive power catapulted him ahead, around T10 and down the straight again. T5, once again I was under his rear wing. My buddy was giggling like a 12 year old school girl. One more time around, on his butt at T5, then at T6 he gave the pass. Now I was giggling like a school girl.

We came into the pits and he was looking at my car. He asked how I changed the tires so quickly. I was on the R1Rs. I really wish I had been on the Hohos.

So yes, a fun and fast car, and hadn't really considered getting rid of it except maybe for a newer GT3 (997.1 or .2 as I'm faster than the 996 ones when stock). The Noble is interesting enough to me to consider.

If you haven't sold it, bring it to the next event. We'll swap for part of a session, or maybe ride together.

No oil pan, I can source just the pan for around $500. So it's really not that much. If I was going to track it I would get with Hoover to maybe pick up his dry sump pan, or throw on an accusump and the track pan.

It's fine on the streets as is, but for any track duty I wouldn't feel comfortable taking it out, even for a little bit. I got oil starvation at MSR-C when running more than 10 seconds a lap slower than in my Lotus. I thought I was going easy enough, guess not...

As for the differences, the M12 has slightly narrower leather seats vs the M400 wide suede. The M400 also has a front sway bar and higher spring rate shocks. The M400 also has the newer ball bearing water/oil turbos vs the stock T25's on all the M12s. It also has side scoops instead of vents for the rear cooling of the front turbo, alternator, and compressor.

If you were going to turn it into a full track car, then I would probably go with new suspension anyway.

How much would you be looking for your car? I'm pretty sure it's faster than a stock noble. Then again, with an exhaust change and tune you get 100whp instantly out of the Noble putting it in the 450 range. Change turbos or go to a single setup and you will be in the 550-650 range. It has tons of potential, but there are only a few shops that cater to them. Hoover at TurboHoses.com is the biggest name out there for them. He also does trackside support for the west coast Noble racers.

Where are you located now? Pretty sure you didn't drive from VA to the H2R event. Feel free to hit me up on email too if you like. b.kircher@gmail.com

Just curious, but with the hardware you guys have, why are you running TDIs?

The TDI is fun to drive. It's not the fastest car out there, but it's not always about being the fastest. Although I take great joy in driving the TDI around the track with three passengers in it, and outrunning a 400 HP 2010 Camaro. I could do that with the Porsche without even thinking about it. But when I drive the TDI, I have to pay a lot more attention to my braking points, mid-corner speed, exit speed, and overall balance.

When learning a new course, the slower car is the better choice. I can't power out of my mistakes.

Besides, when I take the Porsche to the track, it's a tank of fuel to get there and run 80-90 minutes worth of sessions. I then often have to fill up again to go home. With the TDI Cup, I can fill up on Monday, drive around a little, go to the track Friday to get familiarized with the new facility, drive home, drive back, 80-90 minutes on track, drive home, drive around that weekend, and fill up again on Sunday. Sure, there's a good 15-20 seconds per lap difference, but again, it's not all about that.

You should take your car out to the track some time. The skills you learn there will actually help improve your mileage and make you a safer driver. When you learn not to take a turn at a modest 3 mph faster, you spend that much less time accelerating to get back to speed. You end up looking ahead longer distances and are more aware of your surroundings, including what's happening at the contact patches.

I agree, it's not always about the fastest and most expensive track toy. I learn so much more when driving a slower car around the track. I have time to actually evaluate each turn in, apex, track out and all of my braking zones. That is something I never got to do when learning to track in a Lotus. Everything comes at you so fast there isn't much time to think, it turns into all reactive measures, which is bad for someone trying to learn track skills.

The guys that start out with slower cars learn how to drive much better than those with the fast cars. That is why in the beginning groups you see Z06 vettes doing the same lap times as the guys in stock miatas. You learn very quickly that the limiting factor on the track is not the car, nor the tires, nor the brakes, it's that loose nut behind the steering wheel that just thought they knew how to drive.

Plus this go round for me I was the only one from Houston bringing a car, so another instructor and myself just car pooled out there. Normally we load up three track cars on the trailer and hop in the truck for the drive out. Sometimes I don't even take a car out, I just go to instruct and help out. Besides, it was 2.5 hours there, 2.5 hours back, four 20 minute sessions, and then back and forth to work for the next week. All on one take of fuel.

Lotus or Noble - 2 tanks there and back, 1 tank on track

I love my TDI.

I'm not a track newbie. I used to run an E30 M3 that only had safety (rear weld in cage section) and basic brake mods done to it. I instructed with BMW club here in portland and used to enjoy running down the faster machines as well, much as you describe with SLR. I sold that car a few years back, moved to karting, and have not been back to the track in a full size car for a few years. I have considered the TDI but it needs considerable suspension work first as I am overwhelming the stock setup already on back roads.

LordZ, I would very much like to know what changes you have made to yours, as mine is a similar car (03 Jetta). Particularly in suspension and braking.

Mine is pretty basic, I got the easy stuff done. I didn't want to go over the top since it shares my daily driving duty with the truck.

Shine suspension with bilstiens and rear sway (rear sway is where the difference was!)
All new bushings and bearings on the wheels, suspension, chassis
New cheap autozone VR6 rotors, used calipers, and carbotech AX6 pads (sounds like a schoolbus stoping though...)
EGR delete, 3" straight pipe from turbo back, cleaned intake mani, kerma tune for stock turbo.

I did have to replace the pancake pipe going to the ic though, boost kept blowing off my 140k mile spring clip.

Other than power it feels very much like a CooperS now. Steering isn't as crisp as a mini though.

If you are in Hillsboro TX, shoot me a PM and next time I head out to the track you are welcome to join and try it out. If a member day then I can probably even let you take it for a lap or two around the track. Just don't laugh at my power on the straights.

Hillsboro OR. I'll have to update my profile. What did you do with regards to bushings? Audi TT on the control arms and stock elsewhere? Or did you step up to urethane? Mine is definitely ready for that work. I was also leaning towards Shine. I take it you are happy with the spring rates? I imagine almost anything will be better than stock.

Pretty sure I just got the 250f/180r setup as I got it purely for street use with the oddball track day thrown in. I would have to go back and look it up to be 100% on it.

AudiTT on control arms, everything else oem. I left my front sway in too. I did put everything in except the rear sway bar as soon as I got it. With 140k miles on my old ones I'm pretty sure a case of twinkies between the axles and the chassis would have felt better. I liked it, but wasn't "impressed". When I finally snookered my shop into drilling the holes for the rear sway, it was an OMG moment the first time I took a curved entrance ramp. Totally changed the feel of the car. Well worth the money in my book.

I am really happy with the outcome of it all, on the street it rides just like a mini cooper with sport springs. On the track it's a bit bouncy, but takes rough portions of the track very well. I was running 525f/650r on the 1900lbs Lotus and it would just about knock your teeth out and bust your kidney on the track and street. I might go a bit stiffer on the springs next go round, but no regrets at this point in time.

Was hoping you were in Hillsboro TX, it's only about 2 hours from the track.

I went and drove a clubman s today since the dealer was all out of cooper s 6spd models. I have to say, the addition of sprint520s and stage 2 tune felt better to me. Handling was better on the cooper, but the suspension upgrade should take care of that.

GRM did a project golf in their august 2010 issue. Their setup ran 450lbs/in springs and they were very impressed on the autox circuit. They didn't mention street feel though.

Thanks for your inputs. Much appreciated.

Try to find a John Cooper Works version. That is a very good feeling mini on track for a street car.

The clubman s is a good size bigger and heavier than the coopers yet have the same motor. I wasn't very impressed with them, just felt big and cumbersome to me.. My wife has a basic cooper s and it felt much better. To me at least.

I think the 520's and the tune makes a good size difference though. Can't wait till I get some downtime to put in the 17/22, injectors, and clutch. Should start to get fun then!

My suspension is still stock, and it feels like I'm riding Flipper. I really need some good dampers on the car. I was/am looking into some JRZs, but the money for those is kind of silly for a mostly street car. The Koni Yellow is an option, but I need to do some work to make them adjustable while still on the car. I could just do a set of Bilstein HDs, but the lack of adjustability is a concern. I want it softer for the street, but tighter for the track.

I've been talking to the guys at Ground Control. Hopefully we come up with a good option.

savowood, you bringing the TDI out on the 7th?