BRM Suffers Catastrophic Engine Failure

Driver_found said:

What bothers me is the concept of the durable diesel engine that is supposed to outlast its inferior gas counterparts. Yet I am seeing over 200k miles on Hondas, Mazdas, older Audi 5 cylinders, and even some Fords, using gasoline engines. Without serious problems.
While the TDI's that are newer than the AHL engines, seem to have some serious design issues that beg to question - why pay the extra for the TDI if it will likely fail and cost you extra money prematurely? Fun factor and MPG excluded.
I'm just saying.

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I know we're off track with the thread, but I have to say I agree. These are dark days for passenger diesels in 'murica. It's been 2 fuel injection generations in a row of problems: first these PD's eating cams and now CR's eating FIP's. The PD's problem was 1/2 engineering and 1/2 inadequate oil. The CR's problem is 99% the engineer's fault for not making a damn pump that can run on our crappy fuel.

/Full stop

Back on track, sorry; just had to vent at VW.

PS: I bet my used BMW 318ti with 99K miles and unknown oil change history will outlast the average VW-CR engine.

Mach1 said:

Yep, I am waiting for my ELF CRV 506 0-30W oil to crater my BRM @113000 miles..In the Texas heat, was 102 yesterday...Did I mention 15000 OCI as well...Die BRM..Die!!!

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506.01 is a long-life oil and 15k OCI I'd say is a waste of oil. Try increasing to 25k OCI. BTW, 506.01 is really rich in Zn/P and Ca IIRC...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver_found
What bothers me is the concept of the durable diesel engine that is supposed to outlast its inferior gas counterparts. Yet I am seeing over 200k miles on Hondas, Mazdas, older Audi 5 cylinders, and even some Fords, using gasoline engines. Without serious problems.
While the TDI's that are newer than the AHL engines, seem to have some serious design issues that beg to question - why pay the extra for the TDI if it will likely fail and cost you extra money prematurely? Fun factor and MPG excluded.
I'm just saying.

nicklockard said:

I know we're off track with the thread, but I have to say I agree. These are dark days for passenger diesels in 'murica. It's been 2 fuel injection generations in a row of problems: first these PD's eating cams and now CR's eating FIP's. The PD's problem was 1/2 engineering and 1/2 inadequate oil. The CR's problem is 99% the engineer's fault for not making a damn pump that can run on our crappy fuel.

/Full stop

Back on track, sorry; just had to vent at VW.

PS: I bet my used BMW 318ti with 99K miles and unknown oil change history will outlast the average VW-CR engine.

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The good things about the PD:

The lower end on the PD is super tough.
The oiling problems can be dealt with.
The 2004 automatic transmission is pretty good

The bad thing is trying to get through all the people aspect of dealing with the PD. There is so much wild information out there. There are a lot of hands out wanting the PD repair dollar. The PD owner pays and pays and pays. You can buy your PD at least twice. You buy it new, and then again used at about 150,000 miles.

Every one with anything but a standard transmission should plan on putting in a standard transmission if it fails. The cheapest way possible. Most articles are geared to the best way (the most expensive way).

But who am I. I am so dumb I run the eddif cam bearings. Everyone knows he is an ADD, ADDHD, Savant, Asperger, OCD, Troll who does nothing outside of post old irrelevant photos no one can understand. Oh well, just one perfect fellow.

The OP and others can oil the cam bearings / followers if they choose.


eddif

eddif said:

But who am I. I am so dumb I run the eddif cam bearings. Everyone knows he is an ADD, ADDHD, Savant, Asperger, OCD, Troll who does nothing outside of post old irrelevant photos no one can understand...

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Don't be so hard on yourself-

nicklockard said:

These are dark days for passenger diesels in 'murica. It's been 2 fuel injection generations in a row of problems: first these PD's eating cams and now CR's eating FIP's. The PD's problem was 1/2 engineering and 1/2 inadequate oil. The CR's problem is 99% the engineer's fault for not making a damn pump that can run on our crappy fuel.

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Is it not also a 100% VW engineering fault for the PD cams?

Bob S. said:

Is it not also a 100% VW engineering fault for the PD cams?

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Kind of like if you are a tobacco smoker. Once you know what is bad for your health, it is your responsibility for making the chnge toward health. It is legal to sell tobacco products to adults and it is your choice.

Once you see the cam bearing oiling issue it is your responsibility to address the issue. Of course like smoking it is hard to look issues in the eye. Denial works so much better than the truth. It is legal to not do anything to help your car. Your choice.

So no I would say you can have an impact on how many miles your car runs on the original camshaft. VW sold a product that has issues toward cam / follower health, but you decide to stop the process or not.

There are stores / clerks that sell to minors. There are folks that will sell you what you do not need. There are folks that will make money from the error just as long as they can.

I could post a few pictures to demonstrate the problem. LOL

eddif

eddif said:

.......I could post a few pictures to demonstrate the problem. LOL

eddif

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Spare us....thanks!

I find this ELF info interesting as my car was running ELF for about 30k miles before I checked my cam and moved to TDT.

hmmm.....

Any UOAs of the ELF before TDT?


PS: my cam failed after using (wrong) ELF

Sadly, no. At that time I wasn't convinced there was a serious flaw. I only pulled the cover b/c of the dog ear fiasco.

I hate the car. I'm selling it as soon as I can. New cam shaft, caliper, etc... it'll be reliable enough... to 200k miles... then it's the next guy's problem.

I'm going back to bugs for good. I never wanted a sedan in the first place, and you can see that from all my posts in the past. It's been fun, and it was a great car when used for business... but I am not going to miss it at all.

Can't say for sure when I switched from ELF to Total, but estimate was around 30-40K. Cam wear is slight... barely visable, but distinct 'edge' on exhaust lobes. Switched only due to its unavailability, which may someday prove to be a good thing.

Anyone know why our online retailers stopped selling it? (think it was called "Excelium DID" in a purdy blue bottle)

eddif said:

Kind of like if you are a tobacco smoker. Once you know what is bad for your health, it is your responsibility for making the chnge toward health. It is legal to sell tobacco products to adults and it is your choice.

Once you see the cam bearing oiling issue it is your responsibility to address the issue. Of course like smoking it is hard to look issues in the eye. Denial works so much better than the truth. It is legal to not do anything to help your car. Your choice.

So no I would say you can have an impact on how many miles your car runs on the original camshaft. VW sold a product that has issues toward cam / follower health, but you decide to stop the process or not.

There are stores / clerks that sell to minors. There are folks that will sell you what you do not need. There are folks that will make money from the error just as long as they can.

I could post a few pictures to demonstrate the problem. LOL

eddif

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W T F.

Driver_found said:

What bothers me is the concept of the durable diesel engine that is supposed to outlast its inferior gas counterparts. Yet I am seeing over 200k miles on Hondas, Mazdas, older Audi 5 cylinders, and even some Fords, using gasoline engines. Without serious problems.

While the TDI's that are newer than the AHL engines, seem to have some serious design issues that beg to question - why pay the extra for the TDI if it will likely fail and cost you extra money prematurely? Fun factor and MPG excluded.

I'm just saying.

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...... would current generation Honda, Audi, Toyota, Mazda last 200k miles???

I know of someone with a 2001 Ford Escape with over 275,000 miles on it. And he has the Ford V6 in it. Just rode in it last week, and it still runs fine. No major mechanical repairs done..

-Mike

dschein said:

Day 20​

Stopped at the dealers (again), this time to disassemble the old head in an effort to find the root cause of this failure. My initial hunch was that a valve dropped, but as the following photos show there was no evidence of that. The lifter wasn't damaged or collapsed, the valve shaft was still in place as were the retainers. The root cause doesn't seem to have been something in the head. A few things I noticed, each of the fuel injector lobes had begun to develop a grove in them just before the top of the lobe. Each of the exhaust lobes were developing an 'odd' wear pattern on them. Almost as if the lifter was wearing the cam.

My web site has been updated with this information and the photos of today's visit to the dealer.

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took a good look at the pictures. I think that's the worst wear we have seen of the injectors lobes ever. I was wrong , the lifter didn't wear through. maybe the glow plug tip broke first , jammed bewteen the piston and valve. the cam/lifter wear may just be an added "bonus".
Consider yourself lucky it failed within the warranty period. Now join the TDT mafia cause that 505.01 myth has been proven to be just that

My Jetta and Passt PDs are gone, traded for Lexus product. I know, Toyota/ Lexus had their issues. The service is great, the dealers know the story on their cars, I don't have to tell em whas up and what recalls or TSBs exist. It is a whole nother world. I don't miss my first three years of soso to bad service and my last two years of better but no attention to detail type of service.

Lexus gives you breakfast and lunch, a waiting room with massage chairs, big screen TV,s wireless network connectivity, computer stations in case you don't have your own and loaner cars at the drop of a hat.

My Diesels were cool but after the Passat cam wear issue and the engine replacement under warranty, I did not trust the cars. My Jetta had 78000 on it and I visited VW service way to much. So, I said good bye to the brands for now. I'll not say I'll never be back but I am enjoying my Lexus cars allot. My wife and I feel like we made a good decision. Only time will tell for sure. Lastly, the creature comforts make my two hours in the car daily much more enjoyable and my wifes 1.5 hours also.

I just changed my oil when I bought the car last week..... Guess what I used?? Total 5w-40. GREAT. So before I use the search button, can anyone tell me what the difference is between 505.00 and 5005.01?

zoompastu said:

I just changed my oil when I bought the car last week..... Guess what I used?? Total 5w-40. GREAT. So before I use the search button, can anyone tell me what the difference is between 505.00 and 5005.01?

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i was asking this years ago. You might read this: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=229124

Dimitri16V said:

took a good look at the pictures. I think that's the worst wear we have seen of the injectors lobes ever. I was wrong , the lifter didn't wear through. maybe the glow plug tip broke first , jammed bewteen the piston and valve. the cam/lifter wear may just be an added "bonus". Consider yourself lucky it failed within the warranty period. Now join the TDT mafia cause that 505.01 myth has been proven to be just that

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Dimitri16V I've reluctantly accepted the fact that I'll never know the root cause of the failure . The only positive things were that it happened 3K before the warranty ran out and that I now know to remove the valve cover frequently to inspect for wear.

dschein said:

I've reluctantly accepted the fact that I'll never know the root cause of the failure . The only positive things were that it happened 3K before the warranty ran out and that I now know to remove the valve cover frequently to inspect for wear.

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I suggest you look for the reasons for failure. There is not a root cause but a whole list of factors.

After you are sure you do not have a failure from the repair work 12,000 miles US (?). I would not wear lmyself out checking. What I would do is consider a set of stock cam bearings at some point.

eddif

Why bother? The OP gets a new engine under warranty & gets a new start.

To dschein: sorry to read of your problems but happy VW is able to make you whole. Lesson to owners of newer vehicles: keep good records and change with approved oils at proper intervals. After warranty I switched to TDT but that choice is yours.

jjblbi said:

To dschein: sorry to read of your problems but happy VW is able to make you whole. Lesson to owners of newer vehicles: keep good records and change with approved oils at proper intervals. After warranty I switched to TDT but that choice is yours.

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Drawing conclusions from all this is somewhat according to your approach.

jjblbi sees using the correct VW oils as the correct thing to do. The car failed before the warranty was over. From the description of the worn cam / followers the wear has been going on for thousands of miles. I would draw the conclusion that the PD has issues that can cause failure about warranty ending time. Actually using the correct VW oil the failures usually occur in the 88,000 mile range.

Using a wrong oil still gives a failure slightly sooner, but still around the same mileage.

Starting the use of TDT at 30,000 miles may be a correct move. You might have reduced wear till 200,000 miles (unknown). Using the correct VW oil usually gives failures around 100,000 miles and usually does get you beyond warranty.

Using a better oil can get you to the 170,000 mile range. Our trouble is knowing which oil is better.

Being a 300 mile a day commuter can get you to 250,000 mile range. Of course that long commute is a given benefit we see even on gas burners.

In my case changing the cam bearings has moved me from 105,000 to 141,000 miles. Seeing how the stock replacement cam bearings were wearing though, I would be dead again by now. If I had polished the cam bearing journals, there might have been better wear results with the stock replacement bearings on an unpolished camshaft (hindsight).

My final thoughts. If you are lucky enough to make it to timing belt time without wear, change cam bearings as a minimum effort. I even might see saying TDT oil seems to help. I like the cantilever reducing cuts. You can not be off on the cuts though.

I still would love to help someone test the cut cam bearings in a BRM. I think the cam running position can be changed. If anyone with a little (lot ?) of curiosity would try, the rest of the community could learn.

eddif

Eddif, There are many, many variables which may contribute to the BRM cam failures. I am lucky enough to have not have been affected by this issue. My daily commute is approx 140 miles round trip so I'm up to temp and running a good bit at low load highway cruising speeds. I use a light foot until the coolant temp is 190F and again when for a couple of miles when reaching my destination. I also do not idle much and do open it up when the road is clear.

Wish I knew the clear cut answer for the cause and its solution. John

jjblbi said:

Eddif, There are many, many variables which may contribute to the BRM cam failures. I am lucky enough to have not have been affected by this issue. My daily commute is approx 140 miles round trip so I'm up to temp and running a good bit at low load highway cruising speeds. I use a light foot until the coolant temp is 190F and again when for a couple of miles when reaching my destination. I also do not idle much and do open it up when the road is clear.

Wish I knew the clear cut answer for the cause and its solution. John

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You almost fit the high daily mileage group. That is a plus for why you have not seen failure. IMHO. If you were driving a third level car, most people kill by 70,000 miles US, you would probably still be going.

The high speeds may be a long term oiling plus. The hydrodynamic oil film is good at higher speeds. Not WOT but just higher loaded speeds. High RPM and low loads, coasting, seems to give a strange wear due to cantilever forces.

You do face (IMHO) the cam bearing wear. When the oil supply cuts off rapid wear usually starts.

Do you know which followers or mix of followers you have? Not that I know enough to comment totally, but it might be of some help to eventually know.

eddif

dschein said:

... Finally he showed me the glow plug from cylinder #3, the tip was missing. ...

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From the OP's first post in this thread.

maloosheck said:

... - glow plugs break and destroy engine ...

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From a 1/11/09 post http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=235820

How in the world did this thread get turned into a bearing/oiling/cam thread? Just look at the OP's photos. Clearly it is not a cam bearing wear issue.

Enough with the crusade! Please give it a rest.

Bob S. said:

How in the world did this thread get turned into a bearing/oiling/cam thread?

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One word: "eddif"

Bob S. said:

From the OP's first post in this thread.

From a 1/11/09 post http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=235820

How in the world did this thread get turned into a bearing/oiling/cam thread? Just look at the OP's photos. Clearly it is not a cam bearing wear issue.

Enough with the crusade! Please give it a rest.

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Out of your linked list we see at least two problems with the OPs engine . The OP posted the photos and by post two the cam and follower condition was already discussed.

eddif

Eddif,

I don't know which followers I have, cam lobes all had chamfer and no copper streaking at 90k TB change. Build date was 11/06 for car. John

jjblbi said:

Eddif,

I don't know which followers I have, cam lobes all had chamfer and no copper streaking at 90k TB change. Build date was 11/06 for car. John

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This is all tough. If you wait till copper streaks or wear it might be 250,000 miles, and too late to do anything when found. If you decide to do the cam bearings as a preventative measure: laughs arise, about how stupid it is to replace perfectly good bearings that you do not even know if they cause the problem. The copper streaks are so faint without correct lighting they are almost invisable.

We have a whole group of folks that look at the 5,000 mile reduced load area bearings, with plenty of room to oil bearings and follower tops, and contrast them to 100,000 mile worn bearings with oil slots almost covered; but they say " I just do not believe it is a cam bearing issue".

So everyone is torn between options. I understand all this. If I read the threads for the first time, I honestly do not know what my decision would be. The reversed one hole lower bearings work, but are hard to modify. The copper streaks are probably more BEW specific, but then some BRMs are said to have silver followers. Jnitrofish knows a lot about follower use and year information, but does not feel confident posting information and opinions.

It would help if someone with a BRM would try cantilever relief bearings to see if they correct the BRM cam alignment.

eddif