VW Oil Spec Article & 506.01 Information

http://sustainablepower.net/TDI/VW-AUDI_Oil_Spec_Article.pdf

Many of you may remember Herve Blanquart helped the TDIclub community understand the 505.01 specification in the Fall of 2003 when he was working with Motul. Herve is now with ELF and recently wrote an article on VW/Audi Oil Specifications which was published in its entirety in "Quattro Quarterly" thanks to Paul Rivera.

Below are questions I asked Herve regarding the article, followed by his email reply.

-- My email to Herve:

Herve, this is a great document, thanks for putting it together and Laurent thank you for sharing it with me. I’m very interested in understanding these oil specifications and I just have a couple of questions…

You wrote:
<ul type="square">More troublesome is the fact that the minimum HTHS (High Temperature High Shearing) viscosity of 2.9cP that the SAE requires for xW30 and xW40 oils has been judged insufficient by most German car manufacturers to prevent wear on the cams and bearings…[/list]Is ELF Evolution CRV 506.01 with a HTHS of 2.9 – 3.4 capable of preventing wear on cams and bearings as well as a 505.01 oil with an HTHS minimum of 3.5?
<ul type="square"> … Models after 2000 came with an option to use the 503.00/506.00 generation of oil, with better fuel economy (thinner viscosity), but mostly a 30,000 kilometer or once-every-two-years oil drain interval!! This switch did not come smoothly, and two “interim” standards, 503.01 and 505.01, were created to address the needs of specific “higher stress” engines which did not take well the thinner viscosity of 503.00/506.00, until the release of 506.01 which solves these problems.[/list]If engine protection and longevity were your top priorities would you use ELF Evolution CRV 506.01 or ELF Excellium DID 505.01 in your PD TDI?

-- Herve's reply:

I wrote the article to tackle the current situation of the US market. 502.00 appeared in the mid 90's. The current VW standards in Europe are 10 years ahead of that. The article was "simplified" to address the US-enthusiast-Audi clientele (notice: I did not even go into ACEA Diesel standards).

It is indeed possible to reconcile a better fuel economy with wear protection, and it is possible to do so with an HTHS between 2.9 and 3.5. It is harder, though, and <u>much more expensive</u>: the base stocks have to "pick up the slack" that a thinner viscosity will create. Group IV and Group V will be used more freely, and in any case, it will be specific base stocks that will be identified and registered by VW in the use of a formulation that meets 506.01.

Between 506.01 and 505.01, if price is no object, I'll take 506.01 without hesitation. There are between 5 and 8 years of technology separating the two...

Notice that VW AG allows intervals with 506.01 up to 50000 km (31000 miles !!) or every 2 years. You still have to check your oil level and top-off before that (the best oils still have a "natural" volatility when brought to high temperature), but 506.01 is like "super-oil", it does it all: long intervals, fuel economy, anti-wear...

Herve Blanquart
ELF sales agent - Western US

Many thanks to Herve for sharing this info with the TDIclub!

Cheers!

thanks, SUNRG. Good info !

I'll definitely be switching to 506.01 on my next change.

Alas, that's still ~14k km away, since I just recently did a change with Liqui Moly 505.01. At least by then the 506.01 should be a bit easier to source locally (Ottawa, ON).

Thanks for the info; good stuff!

Fantastic info. Herve has been providing TDIclub with good lube-related info for some time now!

That was a most excellent article. I am even going to print it out for a few friends of mine who are either TDI owners or will be TDI owners.

Great info! Thank you for passing it along!

But what does he say about the poor quality US fuel? and its effect on the oil

a quick refernece of other oils HTHS ratings

[It is indeed possible to reconcile a better fuel economy with wear protection, and it is possible to do so with an HTHS between 2.9 and 3.5.

Click to expand...

Amsoil 100% Synthetic 5W-30 Motor Oil (ASL) has an HTHS of a Minimum 3.5 and meets 505.00

AMSOIL Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy-Duty Diesel Oil (HDD) has an HTHS greater than 3.5 it also meets 505.00 and 506.00

Looks like I might try the Amsoil 5w30 HDD. plus I can get amsoil for 50% less than 506.01.

03_01_TDI
I am not so sure that amsoil 5w-30 HDD is a good idea and I use amsoil (10w-40 amo). Read the stuff DBW wrote in this thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?C...true#Post939383
If maximum engine life is your priority a xw-40 oil is a better choice. Dan

Dan, I'm not certain that's the case. While I run 5W40 oils in our cars, VW-AG does permit and has expanded the acceptable viscosities for the VEP cars. I just received a new list from VAG this morning (dated 2/9/05) and there are many new certified oils that are not 5W40. This is quite a contrast to my previous lists where 99.6% of the oils were 5W40.

YMMV

I am not willing to take a chance that the new xw-30 oils are ok. It for me is not worth risking for a for a few extra mpg. Your right VAG is saying there ok but the data DBW has compiled and my own experiences with engine wear leads me to go with the xw-40. When more people have used it and there is a consensus as to how well it holds up then maybe I will change my mind. Dan

Would it be OK to switch to 506.01 at 5,000 mi? Or does the engine need more break in?

Dan, no problem. I am very comfortable with the 5W40 oils as well.

J, you're good to go with the 506.01 at those miles. Remember, the rest of the world is already running it in the PD engine. We're not charting new territory.


You might want to try to split the case with someone. I believe their cases are 18L.

03_01_TDI
I am not so sure that amsoil 5w-30 HDD is a good idea and I use amsoil (10w-40 amo). Read the stuff DBW wrote in this thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?C...true#Post939383
If maximum engine life is your priority a xw-40 oil is a better choice. Dan

Click to expand...

I've read that theard before. However the cam wear measurements was only one 1 car and many many other factors could have come into play. So I would prefer to stick with real lab controlled testing. Such as the Four-Ball Wear Test and the High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity (HT/HS.

"Herve's reply:

It is indeed possible to reconcile a better fuel economy with wear protection, and it is possible to do so with an HTHS between 2.9 and 3.5. It is harder, though, and much more expensive:" Amsoil beats the 3.5 HTHS ratings.

You state that you use amsoil 10w40 AMO and not to use amsoil 5w30HDD. If you look at the real lab testing your 10w40 has a Four Ball Wear Test of .40 which is the <u>same</u> as amsoil 5w30HDD. And the HDD meets all of these diesel engine SPECIFICATIONS API CI-4+, CH-4, CF, CF-2
ACEA B3, B4, E2, E3, E5, Global DHD-1,Mack EO-M+, EO-N Premium Plus 03, DDC Power Guard 93K214, Caterpillar ECF-1
Cummins CES 20071, 20072, 20076, 20077, 20078, Volvo VDS2, VDS3, MB 228.1, 228.3,

So how does one single non-lab tested cam override real lab controlled testing.

If you want to try it go ahead let me know how well it goes. The lab is a very useful tool but real world use also has to be looked at. My concern as DBW pointed out is the cam bearing next to the timing belt. I have seen other engine types show wear there. My acura B17a dohc vtec engine has wear there with 145k on it running the recommended 10w-30 oil(I have gone to 5w-40 on the acura). I wish I still had the missing cam bearing material in the head. The acura camshafts lobes had no wear. A head is a lot more expensive than a cam.

Dan, Mobil is releasing their new Mobil 1 ESP in Europe this week. ESP = Emissions system protection. All these new oils are 5W30, FWIW. It appears VW will be doing some much needed consolidation of their array of gasser/diesel oils.

Yes and honda has gone from 5w-30 to 5w-20 on 01 and later civics with an unchanged engines and 0w-20 on the hybrids all in the name of fuel milage. The NSX 10w-30 has been unchanged over the years (who buys an NSX for fuel milage). Dan

I'll definitely be switching to 506.01 on my next change.

Alas, that's still ~14k km away, since I just recently did a change with Liqui Moly 505.01. At least by then the 506.01 should be a bit easier to source locally (Ottawa, ON).

Thanks for the info; good stuff!

Click to expand...

Where did you get Liqui-Moly 505.01? I've been trying - even went so far as to see about getting a parts store to carry it and also perhaps importing a skid of the stuff. Still can't find it west of the Atlantic.

Related to this 506.01 oil issue for me, is the concern that as a owner of a 2004 Passat TDI, that using 506.01 will not 'be covered by VWoA'! I have spoken to VWoA and they refer me to my local dealer's, who have not heard of 506.01 oil and after my explanation they are unwilling to assure me that using 'it' is OK with them. I would like to switch using the 10,000 miles change interval. With 15,000 miles on my TDI now. Any recommendations &/or experience with the above. thanks

Your dealership's service manager is the first step in the resolution of an engine problem during the warranty period. If he does not give you the OK to use VW 506.01, then IMO you should consider waiting until 50k before you begin using it.

dieseldorf posted an image of "VW Oil Specs and there applications" somewhere. You could print it out along with the 506.01 data sheet (see PD Oil Analysis thread) and bring them to your dealer's service manager.

Since you have 15k on your TDI now you can confidently use 10k OCIs with any of the available 505.01 oils. To be rest assured, after using a 505.01 oil for 10k, I recommend sending a sample of the used oil to a lab for analysis.

Cheers!

thanks for your reply. Several problems remain; I am taking my car for service to a service shop outside the VWoA network to follow the service schedule, therefore I am concerned that without written authorization I will have little leverage...(and since I bring my own oil)---I am beginning to believe that there is only one way to deal with this---use it(506.01) and hope for the best...any one willing to say if they are using with their TDI.

03_01_TDI
I am not so sure that amsoil 5w-30 HDD is a good idea and I use amsoil (10w-40 amo). Read the stuff DBW wrote in this thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?C...true#Post939383
If maximum engine life is your priority a xw-40 oil is a better choice. Dan

Click to expand...

I've read that theard before. However the cam wear measurements was only one 1 car and many many other factors could have come into play. So I would prefer to stick with real lab controlled testing. Such as the Four-Ball Wear Test and the High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity (HT/HS.

"Herve's reply:

It is indeed possible to reconcile a better fuel economy with wear protection, and it is possible to do so with an HTHS between 2.9 and 3.5. It is harder, though, and much more expensive:" Amsoil beats the 3.5 HTHS ratings.

You state that you use amsoil 10w40 AMO and not to use amsoil 5w30HDD. If you look at the real lab testing your 10w40 has a Four Ball Wear Test of .40 which is the <u>same</u> as amsoil 5w30HDD. And the HDD meets all of these diesel engine SPECIFICATIONS API CI-4+, CH-4, CF, CF-2
ACEA B3, B4, E2, E3, E5, Global DHD-1,Mack EO-M+, EO-N Premium Plus 03, DDC Power Guard 93K214, Caterpillar ECF-1
Cummins CES 20071, 20072, 20076, 20077, 20078, Volvo VDS2, VDS3, MB 228.1, 228.3,

So how does one single non-lab tested cam override real lab controlled testing.

Click to expand...

Actuallyt the test group was about 50+ cars and all showed consistent wear data as mentioned in the thread. Amsoil Series 3000 showed poor cam wear results compared to any 5w40 despite the borderline HTHS of 3.5 (which is the minimum under the VW spec).

The Series 3000 had consistent wear rates of .003" and the Mobil 1 5w30 was one of the worst at .005" when sampled at 30,000 mile intervals. Amsoils 10w40 was near perfect along with the Delvac 1 engines showing literally no measurable wear after 120,000+ miles, THATS saying something.

The engine we routinely give grief over is Gewillis, We also put his cam under the microscope to investigate the micropitting that was occurin on his cam when running the Amsoil Series 2000 (0w30). I have to agree that the Series 2000 had somewhat lower wear rates than the Series 3000 which measured out to around .002".

DB

wildman, based upon some info that has been shared over the past few weeks, you might want to stick with 505.01 for the immediate future.

505.01 and 506.01 are considered "interim" oils, kinda like a Microsoft patch, if I may. It also explains why these oils are difficult to find in NAmerica. They're about to be replaced so the big boyz don't want to offer a product that is going to be phased out soon. The big boyz are focused on one thing only: BIG VOLUMES.

The new 504/507 spec is just coming on-line in Europe. I don't know when it's gonna appear here...maybe within a year?? I think this new product will be more widely available and I "believe" this single product will be acceptable in any/all VW/Audi product and replaces all previous standards.

VoC has said it's OK to use 506.01 if you adhere to the 10k/1 year ODI. The nice folks at VWoA have not heard of 506.01 and are incapable of answering the warranty question. I don't know if I'd go down that warranty claim path using a 506.01 oil and getting into some stupid battle with VWoA 'cause I used the "wrong" oil.

Thanks SUNRG and dieseldorf for your helpful replies. I suppose I will await the 507 oil? It is disappointing to not be able to give it the 'best' oil early in it's life! May be this is life's way of telling me I have anthropomorphized to much.

wildman - barring your service manager OKing 506.01 use, i would at least put 505.01 in for your next OCI and see how things shake out. i guarantee over the next 2 months a bunch more information will become available. at a minimum, we will have my real-world 506.01 UOAs to look at.

with the utmost respect for Amsoil's and Mobil's excellent North American xW-20 & 30 products, i do not believe that they are in the same technological league as 506.01 oils. across the pond Mobil already has a 507.00 and has had both a 505.01 and 506.01 for some time. AndyH can update anyone interested Amsoil's 505.01 progress and the oil engineer Andy corresponds with has stated how impressed he was with the 505.01 specification and testing demands.

my understanding is that 505.01 is the interum specification and has been phased out in the EU market. 505.01 only remains in production for the NA market. i predict that the NA market will not see 506.01 or any ESI (extended service interval) technologies because NA dealers don't want it. VWoA wants to maintian short OCIs, because as we all know that means more money for service departments.

my understanding it that the 507.00 specification may very well be the spec that consolidates and simplifies the VW oil requirements. 507.00 may cost less than 506.01 because it is harder and more expensive to produce a 0w oil than a 5w oil with similar engine wear characteristics in high stress applications (PD TDIs). however, i do not think 507.00 is intended at all to be an improvement in the anti wear characteristics of 506.01 - nor will it offer an improvement in fuel economy over 506.01.

if VW intends to try to meet the CARB emissions standards in 2006-07 then i'm certain we will see 507.00 on this side of the pond. however, my understanding is that there is a phase in process, and diesel across the US will not reliably be ULSD for years to come. until NA diesel is reliably ULSD, VW would need a miracle oil and other amazing new clean diesel technologies to meet upcoming CARB emissions standards with inconsistent ULSD availability. one tank of rot gut diesel alone might be enough to foul / ruin an emission system that relies on ULSD fuel.

to finish on a positive note, i just returned from a short business trip to williamsburg, VA and i stopped by the VA Biodiesel Refinery en route. i put 8 gallons of B100 in and he gave me a copy of their latest ASTM test results. i did a triple take when i saw the fuel sulfur content - 0ppm. yes zero ppm - true sulfur free fuel. anything less than 10ppm in the EU is considered sulfur free - and 0ppm is truly remarkable. the last time their fuel was tested it was less than 100ppm and the cetane was 52.7. their cetane is now up to 53.2.

since my last visit in the fall they doubled the size of the BioD refinery and i asked if their soy oil source will be able to meet rising BioD demands - and they said there's plenty - more than 400,000 gallons of surplus in their VA source alone. i predict that BioD will be a significant part of meeting the ULSD low sulfur and high lubricity demands of the future.

cheers!

DB: What approx. time frame did you do the microscopic analysis on the folks running AMSOIL HDD?

AMSOIL reworks each of their oils on a 12-18-month schedule. HDD was recently (July '05) reformulated and now includes 506.00 as already mentioned.

I would expect you to see different results if you did the same type of testing with any of the current oil - including AMSOIL HDD.

Just a thought...
Andy

Edit: Conflicting info. AMSOIL does reformulate on a 12-18 month schedule to incorporate the latest chemistry. It appears that HDD's new 506.00 (on the website but not yet on the datasheet) was from additional testing on the current HDD formulation -- as of today, it doesn't look like the oil was reworked so far in 2005.

SunRG pointed out the HTHS range for 506.00 (2.9-3.4) and HDD's '>3.5' (datasheet) and 3.6 (on-line store data). I haven't seen the 506.00 spec, so can't say if VWAG caps HTHS at 3.4.

Oil Requirements - 2006 Jetta TDi

Thank you for posting this article. With regard to the HTHS I was wondering if the Amsoil European Blend is within the required specifications: It has an HTHS of 3.7. I'm not sure if the number needs to be higher or lower. Thanks... Kevin

SUNRG said:

http://sustainablepower.net/TDI/VW-AUDI_Oil_Spec_Article.pdf

Many of you may remember Herve Blanquart helped the TDIclub community understand the 505.01 specification in the Fall of 2003 when he was working with Motul. Herve is now with ELF and recently wrote an article on VW/Audi Oil Specifications which was published in its entirety in "Quattro Quarterly" thanks to Paul Rivera.

Below are questions I asked Herve regarding the article, followed by his email reply.

-- My email to Herve:

Herve, this is a great document, thanks for putting it together and Laurent thank you for sharing it with me. I’m very interested in understanding these oil specifications and I just have a couple of questions…

You wrote:
<ul type="square">More troublesome is the fact that the minimum HTHS (High Temperature High Shearing) viscosity of 2.9cP that the SAE requires for xW30 and xW40 oils has been judged insufficient by most German car manufacturers to prevent wear on the cams and bearings…
[/list]Is ELF Evolution CRV 506.01 with a HTHS of 2.9 – 3.4 capable of preventing wear on cams and bearings as well as a 505.01 oil with an HTHS minimum of 3.5?
<ul type="square"> … Models after 2000 came with an option to use the 503.00/506.00 generation of oil, with better fuel economy (thinner viscosity), but mostly a 30,000 kilometer or once-every-two-years oil drain interval!! This switch did not come smoothly, and two “interim” standards, 503.01 and 505.01, were created to address the needs of specific “higher stress” engines which did not take well the thinner viscosity of 503.00/506.00, until the release of 506.01 which solves these problems.
[/list]If engine protection and longevity were your top priorities would you use ELF Evolution CRV 506.01 or ELF Excellium DID 505.01 in your PD TDI?

-- Herve's reply:

I wrote the article to tackle the current situation of the US market. 502.00 appeared in the mid 90's. The current VW standards in Europe are 10 years ahead of that. The article was "simplified" to address the US-enthusiast-Audi clientele (notice: I did not even go into ACEA Diesel standards).

It is indeed possible to reconcile a better fuel economy with wear protection, and it is possible to do so with an HTHS between 2.9 and 3.5. It is harder, though, and <u>much more expensive</u>: the base stocks have to "pick up the slack" that a thinner viscosity will create. Group IV and Group V will be used more freely, and in any case, it will be specific base stocks that will be identified and registered by VW in the use of a formulation that meets 506.01.

Between 506.01 and 505.01, if price is no object, I'll take 506.01 without hesitation. There are between 5 and 8 years of technology separating the two...

Notice that VW AG allows intervals with 506.01 up to 50000 km (31000 miles !!) or every 2 years. You still have to check your oil level and top-off before that (the best oils still have a "natural" volatility when brought to high temperature), but 506.01 is like "super-oil", it does it all: long intervals, fuel economy, anti-wear...

Herve Blanquart
ELF sales agent - Western US

Many thanks to Herve for sharing this info with the TDIclub!

Cheers!

Click to expand...