Dealer money grab???

Last night I went to my local dealership and picked up a set of monster mats. While I was there I started talking to one of the service personnel about oil changes. He told me that 99% of the TDI owners out there are changing their oil every 8,000 km. I said that I was going by the 16,000 km intervals as that is what the manual says and what I have I read on this site. He went on to say that if I wanted my car to last I should be in every 8,000 km for an oil change. Is this just a case of the dealer looking for more business??? Will my car suffer if I go 16,000 km between my oil changes.

I have an 02 Golf with 22,000 kms. Thanks guys...this site is a great source of info.

Read your manual. It'll show that you are correct, and the guy at the dealership is wrong. If you want to drive the point home to them, bring your manual in & show them.

16000km is fine for oil change interval (after the initial breakin oil is changed). The first change when the car is new is at 8000km, the second at 16000km, and every 16000km after that.

The only thing suffering from changing oil twice as often is your wallet.

Actually, in this case I think your getting some pretty good advice from the dealer. He is doing you a favor.

Frequent oil changes is one of the best things you can do for your car.

Longer oil changes -- imho -- are primarily to superfically lower the cost of maintaining a new car to help soften the blow of higher car prices.

Since most people do not keep a car for very long, that may be ok -- but pity the poor soul who buys the car used. He pays for the reduced maintenance intervals....

That in the long run it can lead to higher maintenance costs -- to the point the owner might just opt for a new car (gee, who benefits from this?) -- it is hoped will go unnoticed.

I run Mobiel 1 Delvac 5w/40 in my '02 Golf TDI and change it at least every 5,000 miles (along with the oil filter). (And Mobil 1 15w/50 in my Prosche and change it every 5,000 miles too, rather than the 15,000 miles recommended by the owner's manual.)

While synthetic oils, compared to dino oils, are more resistent to break down and whatever other ills can befall oil they are not immune to these ills.

Synthetic oils get dirty, break down, get contaminated, gather in soot, water, unburned fuel -- with lots of sulphur! in the case of diesel engines -- lose the additives designed to help fight these things.

Unless the price of more frequent oil changes seriously impacts your standard of living, I'd recommend more frequent oil changes.

In my case, I buy a case (4 jugs) of Mobil 1 5w/40 from a local Mobil oil distributor (which is pretty affordable but I don't the cost handy to post) and take in a jug each oil change. (I do not bring in more than that because the tech insists on overfilling the crankcase. If necessary I top off the oil afterwards with some spare oil I keep 'hidden' in the car.)

Consequently, oil changes are very cheap. Also, I call ahead and make an appointment and at the appointed time show up with the car and wait so I don't even have to deal with getting a ride to/from the dealer to drop off and pick up my car.

For instance, I just called and made an appointment for this coming Friday AM (I'm off but apparently the dealer/service department is open) and will get my car's oil/filter changed around 5,600 miles since its last oil change.

Sincerely,

Rock Crusher (Oo.)

C'mon guys, lets use a bit of common sense. If you drive little, and mostly in town, shorten up the change intervals a bit. Heck, if you put on 1000 mile a week on the highway, I bet you could doble the miles between changes. I like the idea of a bit more frequent changes because I then get to poke around and make sure everything else is OK. I also am putting very few miles on, and all those short trips need to be offset with a bit more TLC...besides, it's fun. $25 on an oil change is a very small percentage of your purchase price isn't it?
Rodg

Here we go again!

"Play it again Sam."

Hi Folks, It's tough changing mind sets from old school ways. I was also guilty in this area. I can say however, the many oil analysis's that I've read over the years here on this forum has convinced me that by using the recommended rated syns. such as Delvac, Amsoil, PC Duron. and maybe a couple more, proves that 10K intervals in almost every case is AOK. I would definately go farther if I had a bypass filter but, feel that 10K on an OEM filter is as far as I can stomach at this time. I also think that changing earlier than 10K would be wasting money, again, based only on oil analysis as proof in the pudding. There may be some cases such as phat injectors, non low smoke chips, TB's, restricted intakes, and other possible over fueling, soot producing mods to where earlier changes may be necessary but, other than that, it surely doesn't hurt anything other than the wallet to change at earlier intervals, even if the only benefit is peace of mind. In other words, each to their own, go with your heart, or hopefully go with what you have learned here because topics like this have been hashed out long, hard, and nasty. Later!

$25 for an oil change? My dealer charges $8 a quart for the Castrol Syntek. You must be getting it alot cheaper than anyone else here.

I don't understand how 10,000 mile changes can be "AOK" and also "as far as I can stomach" at the same time. Which one is it?

If it is AOK, then you should be able to reasonably expect to go longer under the conditions you have in mind.

If it is as long as you can stomach, I would suggest you shorten your intervals somewhat to gain a comfort level.

Maybe what you are really saying is, it all depends upon the conditions??? I would agree with that!

Tim

Hi Tarbe, I thought my comment was crystal clear: "I would definately go farther if I had a bypass filter but, feel that 10K on an OEM filter is as far as I can stomach at this time.

In other words, it's not so much the oil I worry about (due to oil analysis confirmations), it's extending the MFG's recommended OEM oil filter change intervals. This would satisfy me by having a bypass filter but, I would still change the OEM filter at least every 10K miles. I didn't just come up with this out of the blue, I picked this up quite a few years before you registered on this forum, unless you happened have been a member as I was back in the old Fred's Forum days in early 98. Yes, I did mention conditions but, not all conditions like maybe being a blowing dust bowl area of the country but, that get's a little over my head from a factual statement. Do you happen to know what a bypass oil filter is? If not, let us know and we will gladly go over the facts with you. No intensions of insults here on my end, it's just a natural instinct to rib a newbie a bit if you all know what I mean. Opps, I stand corrected. I just read your post where you mention being a lurker for three years. All the more to bash the he!! out of you for ........ just kidding! Welcome aboard. Later!

[ November 26, 2002, 19:43: Message edited by: Harvieux ]

Originally posted by WVWSP61:

"Play it again Sam."

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Play it again Sam." is never actually said in Casablanca. he says "Play it, Sam."

strange but true.

Harvieux

Yea, been lurking here since '99. Also been messing with mechanical stuff for 30 years, up to frame-off restorations.

I do know what a bypass is, smart alec

I've re-read your post, and the logic is still fuzzy to me. The usually "A-ok" at 10M was w/out a bypass. The "far as I can stomach" was without a bypass. And changing earlier than 10,000 is "wasting money", also without a bypass. So if I look at your view of 10,000 mile changes without a bypass, I get confused as to whether it is A-OK or marginal.

Clearly, you gain confidence with the bypass, as you should.

Do you see my point?

Thanks for being gentle with a "newbie"

Tim

Tell you what. Do your first oil change at 5,000 miles. Then for your second 5,000 add your favorite oil. At 10K, change this oil.

While draining, capture some (Mid stream, not the first or the last oil that comes out of the pan) in a sample bottle and have it analyzed. This will tell you a lot about the health of your oil and engine. Most people running Delvac1 have found that the oil's protective capabilities are far from being depleted at 5,000. Sometimes it's still good at 10,000. This is the only way you will truly know.

Every engine is different. Everyone treats their engine differently. Everyone drivers differently. Oil analysis is the way to go.

Longer oil changes -- imho -- are primarily to superfically lower the cost of maintaining a new car to help soften the blow of higher car prices.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Many people have done oil analysis using the Delvac1 and have found that not only is 10k ok, but 15 or even 20k can be ok (not that I am recommending this). VW does not recommend those intervals for marketing reasons. How many people even know what the maintenance requirements are for a car before they purchase? Most salesmen could probably not even tell you, they would have to look it up.

Originally posted by Rock Crusher:
Actually, in this case I think your getting some pretty good advice from the dealer. He is doing you a favor.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not so. In fact dealers in both Canada and the U.S. have been been told by VWoA they should NOT change the oil more frequently than the 16k Km interval. Reason given: There is no benefit to the end user in more frequent oil changes; and by doing so, additional cost is added without cause.

Of course if the consumer wants it to be done, they will gladly take your money as long as you are willing to give it.

If changing your oil at 5000 miles is so much better than changing it at 10,000, why not change it every 500 miles? That's 10 times better so your engine will last 10 times as long! And I'll get rid of the excess Delvac-1 that is in my basement quicker?

If changing at 5000 is a waste, and changing at 10,000 is fine, then I should change at 20,000 to be really cost effective.

We all know such logic is not logical

I think it is good that folks are struggling to determine where the diminishing returns set in (whether economy to 150,000 miles is your goal, or making an engine last 400,000 miles). Depending on your goals, you will take a somewhat different approach to maintenance.

I try to avoid criticizing other folks maintenance schedules, unless they are clearly saying one thing and doing another ie, "I want my engine to last forever and I change my Wal-Mart dino oil every 10,000 miles" or "I'm interested in economy and I change my Delvac 1 every 3000 miles". I think most would agree that both statements are illogical. But I think there is a lot of room in the middle, especially considering our different driving habits.

Tim

dzcad90 makes a very good point here regarding all engines are different and most driving habits are also different. The answer is analysis to know exactly where you stand. I only base my conclusions from the many posts on this subject and go with a change interval based on what I consider the average end results of the many analysis posted with and without bypass filters. Later!

Chmeeee,

I went the oil analysis route but at $15 a pop, my feeling is better to apply that money towards just changing the oil, so I just opt to have the oil/filter changed every 5000 miles or so.

And I strongely believe marketing has alot to do with maintenance schedules. Some USA automakers have moved from 10w/30 to 5w/30 or even 5w/20 oils for older cars/engines (and newer ones as well) and have admitted it is improve CAFE numbers (fuel economy).

That synthetic oil has appeared helps things, but with higher engine temperatures, rings are moved closer to the tops of the pistons to reduce the volume of unburned fuel but which subjects the rings to higher temperatures, longer times spent in the car -- moving slower and slower due to congestion, I think the added benefits of synthetic oil have been all used up just keeping the oil change intervals from shortening.

If we only had dino oil to use, I would expect oil change intervals would be even shorter for newer cars/engines.

Sincerely,

Rock Crusher (Oo.)

Snowman, not sure how VWoA can issue a blanket statement about oil change intervals. How can it know my driving habits, the amount of dust/dirt in the air, etc.

Sincerely,

Rock Crusher (Oo.)

WOOCHOW, obviously there is a law of diminishing returns.

My 5000 mile oil change interval is based on my experiences with engines and engine rebuilding and driving these cars/trucks with new engines with an accurate oil pressure gage to go by.

One could see the oil pressure change noticably almost overnight after around 2000 to 3000 miles of driving, indicating the oil filter was plugged and the oil was going through the bypass valve and around the filter.

While the oil might still have some additive life left in it, might still not be out of spec regarding viscosity increase, might not be in the red zone regarding unburned fuel, water, etc., that the oil is no longer being filtered to me is a sign it is time to change the oil/filter.

While none of my new cars have an accurate oil pressure gage, I still adhere to a frequent oil change interval. I give the high quality oil and improved oil filters some benefit of the doubt by running the oil/filter for 5000 miles but not much more than that.

Sincerely,

Rock Crusher (Oo.)

From experience with two different bypass filter, on two different diesels, and the analysis I have seen posted on this site, a bypass is a waste of time on these cars for extending oil drains. Soot level is the determining factor on oil replacememnt, and the bypass filters do not reduce soot. Sure changing the filter and diluting the oil will reduce the level of soot, but it means you are running with elevated levels all the time. I do short run city driving and change to oil every 6 months, at around 5K. And yes I have done the analysises.

Originally posted by Rock Crusher:
Snowman, not sure how VWoA can issue a blanket statement about oil change intervals. How can it know my driving habits, the amount of dust/dirt in the air, etc.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmmm.... I don't think I said they could.

What do you think the oil change interval might have been recommended on the Model "T" Fords? A lot less than 5000k I would imagine. 50 years later, the interval for oil changes had changed again. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the interval does not remain static. Rather, due to engineering improvements and advances in lubrication technology, it's dynamic. VWoA has not made it's recommendation based on the absolute worst offenders driving habits (since it would be obvious, and wouldn't honour the warranty anyway), but instead bases it on a baseline average.

Originally posted by Rock Crusher:
. VWoA has not made it's recommendation based on the absolute worst offenders driving habits (since it would be obvious, and wouldn't honour the warranty anyway), but instead bases it on a baseline average.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And VW is ALWAYS right! The same engineers who designed the MAF, the carbon-based-variable-orificing-intake, cherry bomb window regulators.....

Originally posted by Diesel924:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Rock Crusher:
. VWoA has not made it's recommendation based on the absolute worst offenders driving habits (since it would be obvious, and wouldn't honour the warranty anyway), but instead bases it on a baseline average.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And VW is ALWAYS right!

The same engineers who designed the MAF, the carbon-based-variable-orificing-intake, cherry bomb window regulators.....

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, that's not exactly what I said... But we believe them, and follow the change interval that they specify for the timing belts don't we. The other items that you mentioned aren't part of a regular maintenance schedule (or at least shouldn't be).

Originally posted by Rock Crusher:
I went the oil analysis route but at $15 a pop, my feeling is better to apply that money towards just changing the oil, so I just opt to have the oil/filter changed every 5000 miles or so.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why not just do the oil analysis for one oil change cycle, then use the results to set your future oil change interval?

Originally posted by Rock Crusher:
While the oil might still have some additive life left in it, might still not be out of spec regarding viscosity increase, might not be in the red zone regarding unburned fuel, water, etc., that the oil is no longer being filtered to me is a sign it is time to change the oil/filter.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the oil is ok, but the filter is full, why not just change the filter?

tjl,

It takes some time and effort not to mention the $15 for each oil analysis. Since oil/filter services at 5000 mile intervals is not a burden to me in terms of what it costs nor in terms of time -- I can call and schedule one of these at pretty much my convenience and show up at the appointed time and less than an hour later be out the door and on my way -- I have just opted to change the oil/filter every 5000 miles or so.

I've spent some time at the truck stop where the oil analysis is done (I buy my oil there most of the time) and what I learned is that many of the long haul truck drivers/owners don't bother with an oil analysis but simply have the oil/filter changed at a fixed interval with the interval ranging around 1 month or every 15,000 miles.

15,000 miles is not 5,000 miles but one must be aware that these big rig engines have oil reserves of 10 to 15 gallons vs. the 5 quarts or so out TDI has and the oil filter is huge.

Furthermore the engines are hardly ever are shutdown so moisture and fuel contamination are kept low, so 15,000 mile oil change intervals are acceptable.

Sincerely,

Rock Crusher (Oo.)

tlj,

Since I do not do my own oil/filter services, but must take the car to the dealer for service, the cost -- in terms of dollars and time -- to do just a filter change vs. a complete oil/filter service is about the same.

And I stress again the cost of an oil/filter service is not a burden to me, but allow me to add that the premature replacement of the car (or even just the engine) due to engine suffering from inadequate oil/filter changes would be a burden to me, so I see the 5000 mile oil/filter changes the lesser of the two evils.

It is my opinion that extended oil/filter service intervals results in a false economy that only makes sense if one doesn't plan on keeping the car much past 3 to 5 years and is willing to suffer some loss of resale value should a *knowledgeable* prospective buyer lower his value of the car due to extended oil/filter service intervals.

For me, I intend to keep this car a long long time and will over that time put a lot of miles on the car -- since I bought the car last March, I have put over 26,000 miles on it -- and want to do what I can that is reasonable (and 5000 mile oil/filter services are to me reasonable) to extend the car's useful life span. Also, I want to preserve as much of the car's resale value as possible so when it comes time to move to a new car, if I move to a new car, I can recoup more of the money I spent buying the car.

Sincerely,

Rock Crusher (Oo.)

Hi Rock Crusher, I do think what you say makes sense but, if I was going to change oil every 5K, I would most likely use a class 3 oil such as Rotella, Delo syn. instead if spending the big $$ for the class 4 which is designed for extended intervals in most situations. I truly do respect everyones opinion in these oil wars because peace of mind goes a long way whether right, wrong, or indifferent. Later!