What is Handling?

bokonan

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2008
Location
Baltimore, Md.
TDI
2000 Jetta, RC2 & nozzles, EGR-ectomy, VR6 clutch, Bilstien HD, 17" wheels, 250K milesmiles
I found the first half of this thread interesting and useful. I learned a lot about the intent of the original designers of the Mk4 suspension and why they made the compromises they made. I was very interested in pursuing the GT concept and learning about which tweaks seem to work well and especially about any that do not. It seemed that a lot of valuable information was shared by Ceilidh and Peter Pyce and I'm wondering if they could be dragged back into this thread (kicking and screaming?) Basic handling was discussed along with geometry explanations and the pros and cons of most of the usual things that get done to cars because people think they will make them zoomier. Recently Air-Lift has introduced a "performance" kit for Mk4s which allows people to have their cars appear to lay on the ground (I'm too old to understand why unless it is considered funny) but this kit allows you to adjust both front and rear ride height and have adjustable damping too along with adjustable spring rates. This all sounds almost too good to be true so I'm hoping that a knowledgeable person (Ceilidh or Peter?) might know something about this in order to save me from spending my social security check on a useless product.

In my 2003 Jetta wagon I'm presently running about an inch of mechanical lift (I like fast dirt roads during hunting season) with Bilstein HDs and stock everything else and 225/45-17's. I can attest to what Ceilidh said previously about increasing the roll stiffness of the rear making the handling a bit "on edge" sometimes because I'm sometimes on Oliver's LeMons racing team and his 86 Golf can be a bit of a handful of oversteer at times (but it's OK because it's a race car). I grew up on air cooled rear engined cars and always thought oversteer was normal so it hasn't caught me out (yet).
 

kfdunn

New member
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
Belmont, NC
TDI
2005 MkIV Jetta TDI (PD)
I'm firmly in the #4 category. After springing for a coilover (NJT kit from ECS) 12/2014, I was happy with the "go-kart" handling, but not so much with the "go-kart" ride. No amount of tuning or tire pressures could remedy the situation.

Last weekend (9/2015) I installed Koni FSDs with Eibach sport springs from IDParts (learned about them from this forum - THANKS). The ride is not as low, but the handling is every bit as good (absent the "dartiness" of the previous setup).

Some technical observations about the NJTs: I'm not sure of the spring rate at ride height, but conservatively, it's double the OEM rate (and I could easily believe it's triple); the damping required to control that results in essentially a solid suspension, i.e. the tires become the principal springs. Further, with the addition of a rear anti-roll bar (Eibach 25mm) I could induce oversteer by decelerating in turns (I'm old enough to remember driving Porsche 911s in the 70s...).

I can't say enough positive about the new setup though. I was looking to turn my 2005 Jetta TDI handling & ride height to roughly the equivalent of a GTI Mk4. SUCCESS. BTW, I've also changed to tires: 225/45/17s & offset to near the body edge so the geometry is roughly that of said GTI, too.

Thanks for all the comments and discussion; it helped my decision. I'm posting here in hopes someone can benefit from my experiences, too. Oh... and if anybody wants the NJT set, I'm happy to unload it. Just be sure that "go-kart" is the effect you want!

-Ken
 

darkhorse

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
'06 Golf GLS, '01 Dodge/Cummins
I've run with Koni FSD's for several years now. I love the handling & ride.
 

Judson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
Cheyenne, WY
TDI
2001 Jetta
Hey all -

I'm also looking at Koni FSDs. I have currently have HR sport springs and bilsteins. The sport springs make the ride too harsh around town, unfortunately.

So, I'm looking for something stock ride height, but something a little firmer than stock, but not as harsh as sport springs.

Anybody have any suggestions? Right now I'm leaning towards stock springs with the Koni FSDs, but I do like a planted feel around town. See my sig for details on bushings and wheels for the full picture.

Thanks in advance!

Jud.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The Bilsteins are more likely the source of the harshness, unless you are hitting bump stops. If it is NVH - you feel every crack in the pavement, every pebble - it is more likely to be a combination of lack of tire/sidewall compliance together with too much low-speed compression damping.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I agree. 17s and the Billy HDs are going to be harsh. I didn't even like them with 15s. FSDs are going to ride better, but are still on the firmer side in a MKIV sedan. If you're after a dramatically improved ride I'd suggest Reds.
 

tju317

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Location
California
TDI
VW Golf
I have an MK6 Golf TDI 4 door DSG with about 36k miles. Will Koni FSD and VWR springs provide a minor drop of about 1" to 1.3"? Will the ride be similar to stock or better? The stock sport springs tend to ride rough over rough road and doesn't feel balanced. Is there anything else I should replace during installation? Thanks.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I don't think R springs are a good replacement. Rs weigh more in the rear and ride height may not be what you want. And I don't think an R is a lot lower than a Golf TDI, which has springs that put it pretty close in ride height to a GTI.

If you want a better ride raise the car. Jetta Sedan or JSW springs in front, Sedan springs in back. That will bring it up about an inch, maybe more, and improve the ride dramatically. Anything that goes lower will end up harsher because the suspension has less travel.
 

Judson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
Cheyenne, WY
TDI
2001 Jetta
Huh. So Koni Reds, eh? Should I bag the springs, or just keep them?

I plan to move to an H-rated tire. The current Michelins are V-rated, and also suck. Probably the worst Michelins I've bought. I do have a ton of NVH, but I've gone with larger rear brakes; only specific 16s fit, and it just isn't worth the hassle of changing.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I'd go back to stock springs. Big improvement in ride, little sacrifice in handling.
 

Judson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
Cheyenne, WY
TDI
2001 Jetta
OK, thanks. I was thinking stock as well. Stock plus new bushings, plus new tires with softer sidewall, keep the 17s, Koni Reds. That should do it. Should be a hell of a lot quieter as well !
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
I added a report to post 41 to try to get the GIF animations restored. Looks like the links broke when we came over to this new forum. This thread is too valuable to let entropy cause rot.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Interesting to see this thread after all this time. And to see my posts regarding the Shine suspension in my Wagon and learning to drive TDIs on the track. And funny that, some 15 years later, I'm still driving the same car, with the same Shine bar in the rear, and, as of last week, a fresh set of Koni Reds. I snagged one of our last sets when they went obsolete last year. I still enjoy this setup.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Peter, nice. I was always impressed with MkIV handling. Pretty good for an econobox.

I was engaged in some suspension discussion on another forum and went to quote this thread (it's like a book worth of good knowledge to me), and I found the broken links which are very helpful for explaining real world suspension responses. Hope we can get them fixed.
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
" a fresh set of Koni Reds. I snagged one of our last sets when they went obsolete last year. I still enjoy this setup." IBW

Peter,
I've been running my "Special Reds" nearly 70k now. Cranked up the rears about 25% and currently running Wagon towing springs rear, VR6 on the front, (never felt the need for a rear bar). So did you get the last set of the adjustable non FSD shocks, aka "Special Active" Reds?
I did just receive a notification from you guys about the availability of the "Reds" for my Jeep CRD. Adjustable, but
the part number, 82401201SPX references a dual tube design? An adjustable FSD type shock?
Cheers!
R*2
BTW, love the Konis on my Golf, still running strong!
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
The Konis had about 130K on them. They were probably still OK. I realized after I swapped them out with new front springs that the original springs had sagged enough after 400K+ miles that I was probably hitting the bump stops a lot while driving. When I put in new front springs the nose of the car came up so much I had to adjust the headlights.

Koni Special Actives (formerly FSDs) don't have adjustments because the valving allows them to self-adjust. Reds are available for the Cherokee, but they are the twin tube hydraulic design just as they are for the Golf.
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
"they are the twin tube hydraulic design just as they are for the Golf."

Hmmm, so the FSD style has additional valving internally. And the springs are the component that, under constant
compression, gradually weaken/fatigue and get shorter.
 

Paulman

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Location
North Carolina
TDI
2013 Jetta TDI (buyback at 109,000miles) 2014 Jetta TDI 59,000miles
2014 Jetta TDI, 114,000 miles, and I just replaced my stock suspension with Bilstein B4 on all corners with new mounts and hardware.
This is totally different car.
Flat cornering in turns is eerie now. With my ECS rear sway bar, I can dive into the twisties like my old GTI.
I was afraid that Bilstein B6 might have been too harsh for a daily-driver German Korolla.
This is much better than the stock suspension struts and dampers which were probably worn out anyway.
Paul
 

Reinout

Active member
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Location
Tacoma, WA
TDI
2011 Jetta Sportwagen
While it is time for a shock update/refresh there's one item that's not brought up and that no matter how much suspension tuning, engine tuning, and aerodynamics you put on your car, no matter what car, if you're not a driver that feels their car than you'll never get better handling no matter how much you put into it.

The biggest and best upgrade you can do to your car is to upgrade the driver.
 

ducatipaso

Airhead Butcher
Joined
Nov 17, 2001
Location
norcal
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
just gonna chime in here, on my 24v GTI I have the H&R OEM+ springs along with Koni Sport yellows, a 28mm neuspeed rear bar and TT 17s with 235s vs 225s and the ride isn't too harsh and goes around corners amazingly. my TDI jetta has stock soft suspension, and I'm going to slap a 28mm bar in it as I believe this is one of the better things you can do to a mk4 to improve handling. I'll update after install.
 

ducatipaso

Airhead Butcher
Joined
Nov 17, 2001
Location
norcal
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
got the 28mm rear bar in the jetta, with it's original 200k mile OEM suspension. this is the first time I've done this without upgrading the rest of the suspension at the same time and I gotta say, what a world of difference. body roll is reduced, turn in is much crisper. definitely an excellent handling mod for someone who doesn't feel like doing much else.
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
I got a Neuspeed 28mm rear sway bar back in 2012 and liked it a lot, but did not really appreciate it until one of the links broke and I had to take it off until I found replacements. It really sucked. My mechanic found some odd-ball Audi links that are a huge improvement over the originals. This is on my red Golf, the daily driver that I use for courier duties, some of the loads are quite heavy. I have VR6 springs up front and Jetta wagon springs in the rear, so modestly lifted.

I intended to get the same package for my indigo blue Golf, but I recently sold that one to my nephew. Maybe I'll give him a Neuspeed for his birthday if I can find it.
 
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