Hello, i just threw in the towel on trying to find cold start problem. If it is less than 50° and the car sits for the night it has hard start. Sometimes when it sits for only a few hours. I crank it for five minutes until it spudders and then starts. Sometimes it starts to idle but does not accelerate for 5-10 secs. I brought it to dealer and had glow pug recall done. That did not fix problem and they could not help me any further. so i changed lift pump because flow rate was low. Gave me alittle more fuel but didnt fix. So far changed battery, thermatee, fuel filter, and i am getting 13 psi for fuel pressure. After changing lift pump, i hear a swooshing air like sound on the first 1-2 turns then i just hear pump. Fuel gauge also does not pin to full like it once did. I brought to mechanic and he said voltage to glow pug was low and changed relay. Seemed to work for a couple of days then i had same problem. I then brought to him and voltage was fine(it was warm out) it is cold now and he still cant seem to find problem. Any ideas???
2004 jetta tdi pump duse bew cold hard start
- Thread starter Windmu20
- Start date
pruzink
Veteran Member
Have you had the timing belt changed since this problem started or done anything else that might have affected your timing? There are lots of threads & posts in here about tweaking the timing on the BEW engines & when I adjusted mine it made a very big difference on how the car started. Frank06 has a thread about how you kind of have to take the recommended torsion value with a grain of salt and a value that works perfect with 1 car might be different with the next (this is what I found with mine, I set it to nominal but my 04 was very hard to start). Another item that failed on me once that gave me hard starts was the coolant temp sensor.
LiLredTDI
Veteran Member
How many tanks of fuel have you run through the car since this issue began?
Where do you live? What temperateness are you experiencing?
I have not done anything to the timing bc i was told by the mechanic it was not timing related bc the problem is not consistant, like sometimes it starts. Its is definetly due for a sceduled change but belt is in good condition. I did change the temp sensor sept 2011. Based on alot of threads i thought that was possibly the problem but seems to more of a problem with the ALH. I can def bring it up again and sugest withthe mechanic.
Lilredtdi i live in new york and have been having temperatures of around 20° to 50° give or take some ocassional really cold nights 0°-20°. This problem has been going on since october and i fill the car almost once a week
Thanks for both your timely responses
Lilredtdi i live in new york and have been having temperatures of around 20° to 50° give or take some ocassional really cold nights 0°-20°. This problem has been going on since october and i fill the car almost once a week
Thanks for both your timely responses
LiLredTDI
Veteran Member
Humm interesting. I too have an 04 and vlow plugs cured my issue. In your first post, the wooshing is the lift pump priming your fuel system. If your just starting your car after sitting for hours or days it makes that noise the first time you turn the key. After that you will hear the in tank pump if you try to start again but not the distinct woosh.
Check your glow plug harness again for corrosion and fitment. How long does your wait to start light stay on after sitting all night when you turn key?
Maybe also check the rubber portions of fuel line in the engine compartment. Mine looked fine but were dryrotted under closer inspection. Pop hood remove engine cover and follow the fuel and coolant lines. Right on the head beneath the valve cover you will sea few steel lines but at both ends there is rubber to the filter on ine side and tandem pump on other side. Look for cracking or leaks. Did you check the tandem pump itself for seepage??
Let us know and good luck.
Thanks. I checked harness and seems in good shape. My glow plug light stays on about five seconds, doubled that of warm weather. I tried unplugging the coolant sensor to maximize glow plug time and that did not work. I did check the lines and there is slight cracking but one but for the most part seem okay. I also tested the tandem pump by cycling the fuel with the return line into container and did not get much fuel, maybe a little more than normal. I would like to test pressure but where can i find the correct adaptor to plug into fuel test port? my car is a shop now and they are replacing the speed sensor, perhaps rolling the dice.
Dimitri16V
Top Post Dawg
It sounds like air is introduced in the fuel system.
First, install the lift pump correctly so tyhe fuel level sensor works OK
Check the plastic T in the fuel filter. Check the oil level in case there is a leak from the injectors in the crank case. and of course the engine timing
First, install the lift pump correctly so tyhe fuel level sensor works OK
Check the plastic T in the fuel filter. Check the oil level in case there is a leak from the injectors in the crank case. and of course the engine timing
It is installed correctly. Reinstslled it. In doing so, compared float arm to original lift pump. Its not bent, but noticed new float is square but doesnt have corners rounder off perhaps it cant fliat as high. Oil is good, replaced T.. If it was timing than why would it start great al day but not good when it sits for awhile? And also why so intermittantly?
LNXGUY
Top Post Dawg
If there was air getting into the system it would be hard to start hot or cold. Temp would have nothing to do with it.
Have you had the glowplug recall done?
Have you had the glowplug recall done?
LiLredTDI
Veteran Member
I disagree with you about starts and fuel to a point. If it ia very slow leak, it will show up more after sitting for longer periods.
Bet is a very slow air intrusion problem somewhere in return or tandem pump or gasket are bad.
LNXGUY
Top Post Dawg
Original post states anything under 50deg and the car is hard to start. This doesn't point to a air leak in the fuel system... If it was, it would be hard to start all the time, summer, spring, fall, whenever if it sat for long enough for the problem to develop.
Although from the description, that's exactly what it sounds like to me as well. (An air leak).. Hopefully the OP figures it out.
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
The latest glow plugs are not steel.
PDJetta
Top Post Dawg
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- TDI
- '04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
It's not the glow plugs. At anything above about 40 degrees out they don't come on. From what you describe the fuel loop is losing it's prime. I would have said bad lift pump being the #1 probability and a clogged fuel filtter the number 2 probability, but you replaced them.
Try this: after you use the car the last time for the day, clamp off the rubber return fuel line right before the thermostatic T (engine side) on the fuel filter. Next morning remove the clamp (vice grips perhaps) and see if she fires right up. If so you are in fact losing the fuel prime in the lines. It could be a leaking thermostatic tee (o-rings) or a bad tandem pump or possibly a leaking tandem pump gasket. The tandem pump has the check valve in the fuel system. It's on the return side, right before the fuel out nipple on the pump and it is not serviceable. You could install an inline check valve if sealing the thermostatic T and if replacing the tandem pump gasket does not solve the problem.
If the car does not start after clamping the return line, I would be looking at the engine speed sensor, or its wiring.
There is a TSB on here for long cranking for the BEW '04s to add an extra ground to the engine speed sensor circuit to the ECU that you may want to do. All it costs is about $7 for a repair wire and a few hours of your time. It' posted on this list somewhere. Worth a try.
--Nate
Try this: after you use the car the last time for the day, clamp off the rubber return fuel line right before the thermostatic T (engine side) on the fuel filter. Next morning remove the clamp (vice grips perhaps) and see if she fires right up. If so you are in fact losing the fuel prime in the lines. It could be a leaking thermostatic tee (o-rings) or a bad tandem pump or possibly a leaking tandem pump gasket. The tandem pump has the check valve in the fuel system. It's on the return side, right before the fuel out nipple on the pump and it is not serviceable. You could install an inline check valve if sealing the thermostatic T and if replacing the tandem pump gasket does not solve the problem.
If the car does not start after clamping the return line, I would be looking at the engine speed sensor, or its wiring.
There is a TSB on here for long cranking for the BEW '04s to add an extra ground to the engine speed sensor circuit to the ECU that you may want to do. All it costs is about $7 for a repair wire and a few hours of your time. It' posted on this list somewhere. Worth a try.
--Nate
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LiLredTDI
Veteran Member
PDJETTA. That sounds like a really good idea. If ya dont mind im going to tuck that under my hat for later. Sounds like a really simple and effective way to diagnose. It is so simple it is scary.
PDJetta
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
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- Northern Virginia
- TDI
- '04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
"PDJETTA. That sounds like a really good idea. If ya dont mind im going to tuck that under my hat for later. Sounds like a really simple and effective way to diagnose. It is so simple it is scary. "
I can't take the credit. Someone else with a PD reported clamping the return line and it eliminated the long cranks. I just remember the post. He may have had a bad tandem pump. I do know the check valve is in the tandem pump. I disassembled my old one.
--Nate
I can't take the credit. Someone else with a PD reported clamping the return line and it eliminated the long cranks. I just remember the post. He may have had a bad tandem pump. I do know the check valve is in the tandem pump. I disassembled my old one.
--Nate
halocline
Veteran Member
So you have the 5V steels? That might be why you're having problems and why the mechanic thought your GP voltage was low. There's another 'recall' it's not actually a recall, it's a warranty extension to cure cold starting with the 5V plugs. This has been going on for a couple of years. If you just got this done, I would guess that the dealer should have put in 7V steel-sheathed ceramic NGK glowplugs, and bypassed the old 5V recall altogether. You should really check to see what exactly is in there.
This would apply if your problem is in freezing temps, but not for 50F temps. If you're having trouble starting in temps that warm, it's something else.
LiLredTDI
Veteran Member
FYI- i have had all three glow plugs in my car. I just switched two days ago to the 7v ngk's and starting is no different from 15 deg F too 100 deg F. On any of them but maybe i have been lucky.
PDJetta
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
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- Northern Virginia
- TDI
- '04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I suspect the smokey starts on early BEW engines may be due to the injectors. This is how mine smoked from day one:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4084057#post4084057
There was a recall in about 2005, perhaps 2006, where early BEWs that ran rough and smoked on cold start up (below freezing). My BEW was made in October 2003, but I opted out of the recall, thinking there was a risk of the dealer screwing up this delicate operation. This recall cost VW about $3000 per car! The recall replaced the fuel injectors, glow plugs, and glow plug controler and had a software reflash. The glow plugs were the NGK ceramic plugs used in the BRM (slightly longer plug) and supposidely the injectors and controller were the same as used in the BRM. That slightly longer ceramic plug (the '04 part number) was updated to the '08 ending part number. Now the BEW is supposed to use the '09 part number NGK plug. It is the proper length.
--Nate
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4084057#post4084057
There was a recall in about 2005, perhaps 2006, where early BEWs that ran rough and smoked on cold start up (below freezing). My BEW was made in October 2003, but I opted out of the recall, thinking there was a risk of the dealer screwing up this delicate operation. This recall cost VW about $3000 per car! The recall replaced the fuel injectors, glow plugs, and glow plug controler and had a software reflash. The glow plugs were the NGK ceramic plugs used in the BRM (slightly longer plug) and supposidely the injectors and controller were the same as used in the BRM. That slightly longer ceramic plug (the '04 part number) was updated to the '08 ending part number. Now the BEW is supposed to use the '09 part number NGK plug. It is the proper length.
--Nate
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LiLredTDI
Veteran Member
Made sure to check my cold start today. WTS light stayed on for only 3-4 seconds. Temp was 31 deg F. Car started immediately after turning key. Very slight white smoke that was gone with 2-3 seconds. Engine slight bit rough for same time then was velvet smooth.
Nate, did try clamping off the return line and it worked 6 consecutive nights then tried one without and no start. Then clamped it again the next day and it started. It is safe to say that this was the problem. Now my concern is perhaps i
Getting diesel in the oil. I did try this becore based on another thread in the forum. But it suggested doing it on the supply line so it did not work for me. Ordered a kit to test it. The New York got pummeled by snow and i had to drive into work. After hitting many ice chunks my car started vibrating a bit. I thought it might be snow caked up causing vibration but then my transmission slipped almost as if i put it in neutral. Drive just wont seem to stay so i shifted it into D4 so i could just get it to work. Well thats where i am now. I solved one problem thanks to you and everyones suggestions, but now i seem to have a bigger problem on my hands.
Thanks to all for the insight!!!
Getting diesel in the oil. I did try this becore based on another thread in the forum. But it suggested doing it on the supply line so it did not work for me. Ordered a kit to test it. The New York got pummeled by snow and i had to drive into work. After hitting many ice chunks my car started vibrating a bit. I thought it might be snow caked up causing vibration but then my transmission slipped almost as if i put it in neutral. Drive just wont seem to stay so i shifted it into D4 so i could just get it to work. Well thats where i am now. I solved one problem thanks to you and everyones suggestions, but now i seem to have a bigger problem on my hands.
Thanks to all for the insight!!!