Misfire running on 3 cylinders

Hey Guys,
This just happened on way home from work . Running fine on highway and traffic slowed with volume. I hit the pedal to pickup speed again and noticed a vibration almost like a loose wheel that came through the cabin.
The vibration was worse under acceleration. I got it to side of highway, shut off and checked for oil and any signs of leakage. No visible signs.
I noticed the misfire seemed to smooth out with rev around 2500 so im thinking a bad injector.
Anyways I made it home using tiptronic and kept rev's up there.
This is a video I took a short time ago.
http://youtu.be/sLFtiqoJ9t0
Ay ideas. The car has 235k plus. The cam was replaced around 175k
Thanks for input,
Chris.

It sounds as if it could be either a valve/cam issue or a piston problem...low compression on one cylinder. Compression test/cam check in that order.

miss

Chrismak said:

Hey Guys,
This just happened on way home from work . Running fine on highway and traffic slowed with volume. I hit the pedal to pickup speed again and noticed a vibration almost like a loose wheel that came through the cabin.
The vibration was worse under acceleration. I got it to side of highway, shut off and checked for oil and any signs of leakage. No visible signs.
I noticed the misfire seemed to smooth out with rev around 2500 so im thinking a bad injector.
Anyways I made it home using tiptronic and kept rev's up there.
This is a video I took a short time ago.
http://youtu.be/sLFtiqoJ9t0
Ay ideas. The car has 235k plus. The cam was replaced around 175k
Thanks for input,
Chris.

Click to expand...

White smoke = unburt fuel
Likely injector tip got a shot of water which can blow the tip apart.
Use temperature gun on exhaust manifold to catch which cylinder is running colder.
Do it right away before the tip breaks off and smashes a piston.
Cams dont fail that quick in my experience but an injector tip or glo plug tip coming off can smash things up pretty quick.
Unburnt fuel can be lack of atomisation (bad spray) or lack of compression from a damaged piston or bent valve from one of those tips smashing things.
Good luck and let us know

If the injector is shot wont that show on a Vag scan. I don't have any CEL light on and i had the ceramic glow plugs removed a while back.
I wasn't aware that this was another Rusian Roulette issue as far as injector tip shattering and blowing a piston. GREAT.
Well I,m hoping for a failed injector with minimum collateral damage.

Quick question... Wlll the PD injectors off a Golf (PD-100) work on the BHW engine?

Someone said it was discussed here before and I can't seem to locate the link.

Chrismak said:

If the injector is shot wont that show on a Vag scan. I don't have any CEL light on and i had the ceramic glow plugs removed a while back.
I wasn't aware that this was another Rusian Roulette issue as far as injector tip shattering and blowing a piston. GREAT.
Well I,m hoping for a failed injector with minimum collateral damage.

Quick question... Wlll the PD injectors off a Golf (PD-100) work on the BHW engine?

Someone said it was discussed here before and I can't seem to locate the link.

Click to expand...

Vagcom cant detect a mechanical failure on an injector as far as I know!
Water in fuel is the biggest injector tip enemy that I know of but most of my work has been on the bigger diesels
Dont know about the interchange part but cant see a 100 horse designed injector working in a 145?

compression test will rule out injector and broken gp. Visual inspection of valve gear, engine running may reveal something.

Likely injector harness. Check group 13 in VCDS for cylinder balance and scan for fault codes.

Edit: Your coolant looks nasty too. Looks like someone mixed green coolant with G12.

no mil light according to op. A bad harness connection would cause a code to be triggered?

Re turbocharged798's comment: Take a peek inside your coolant reservoir and see what the coolant looks like. Head gasket??

I vote head gasket! That coolant reservoir looks just like mine did. I bought my car with a known bad head gasket and that was the first sign I saw. If you pop the cap, you may find an oily, sooty substance floating around in there and coating the sides of everything.

Yours seems much worse than mine though. My car ran fine and had no smoke whatsoever. If it is the head gasket, one quick and easy way to tell is wait till the car is cold, open the coolant cap to release any pressure, re-install the cap and fire the car up. Wait just about 10 seconds and then shut it down. Now go open the coolant cap...carefully in case there is a lot of pressure. If you hear the sound of pressure escaping then you have a bad head gasket. The coolant system should not have pressure until fully warmed up. If it does this when stone cold then cylinder pressure is escaping through the head gasket into the coolant passages of the block, thus pressurizing the coolant system.

oil in coolant is a bad sign if present. I first use a pressure tester to see if pressure builds quickly in cooling system, then go to the old blue fluid cumbustion gas detector to verify.

Cylinder # 1, from front to back.


Cylinder #2.


Cylinder # 3.


Cylinder # 4.

Looks like I found the problem.
It did have a slow coolant leak and I was going to address it when weather got warmer. You are correct in deducing some sludge in fill tank. I had attributed this to a faulty oil cooler but it may well be the Head Gasket in Hindsight.
So now the question is, what to do with it? I'm not in the mood for a tear down and with 235k whats the lifespan if its put back on its feet?
Anyone looking for a spring project that has the know how to get this running make me an offer.

Simpler times, I should have held onto this baby for backup

wow, the only things that can cause no compression would be a dropped valve or a cracked pistons.

That's odd.

turbocharged798 said:

wow, the only things that can cause no compression would be a dropped valve or a cracked pistons.

That's odd.

Click to expand...

I bet he has a hole along the side of the number 4 piston. When I was researching the head gasket job for my car I cam across several examples of pistons that had missing chunks along the edge where the head gasket had leaked. Someone tried to explain that the coolant turned to some sort of acid when mixed with the soot and unburned diesel in the cylinder once the engine is shut down. My guess is that the coolant does leak into the cylinder once the engine is off and when it does it is able to seep down the side skirt of the piston. Once fired up this coolant will turn to flash steam and expand rapidly blasting away parts of the piston. Makes sense to me but I may be wrong. My piston had slight damage but mine was fixed soon after the problem started so it was not bad.

Well if its a piston, it will be puffing in the crankcase, obvious blow by. If no puffing, bent valve not closing, which would be heard in exhaust or intake, but most likely exhaust. I concur the head obviously has to come off, but I'd still have a look at the valve gear first. If it was head gasket, the pressure built in cooling system would have made something blow up/fail,

If coolant leaked into the cylinder, then perhaps it hydrolocked...leading to all sorts of other potential problems.

like a bent rod, however, that wouldn't lead to zero compression. Since the cam was replaced, something may have gone amiss topside in that area, and its easy enough to look, especially since its locallized to one cyl.

He either dropped a valve or there is a hole in the piston. I have seen where the intake valve had dropped and immediately got pushed up into the intake port sideways barely damaging anything in the cylinder. Motor sounded just like this one, just a miss and vibes. If he took on enough water to hydro lock then in order to get a no compression reading the the rod would have had to snap. I have seen this too but that piston does not stay in place and eventually drops down where it gets shredded by the rotating crank. Sounds like a box of rocks when this happens. That is not what happened here.

Well the weather finally got a bit warmer here in NY so I started on the car.
I got it in service lock position and removed a number of accessories around the engine bay to get at head.
Bear in mind I'm not a mechanic and don't play one on TV either so go easy on me here.
Now to remove the head I know you have to disconnect the obvious like glow plug wires , intercooler hosed, turbo oil pipe, various electrical connectors on back of head etc.
Obviously the 10 bolts holding the head to block.



Where I'm a little hazy is what to remove on the manifold side of the engine. Do I disconnect the exaust manifold from head or from the exaust . Doese the turbo come off with head.
Does AllData have this procedure in their database. I was subscribed for a while and let its lapse but may get onboard again.



Also on the camshaft , how do I mark this or can it be locked. I know the camshaft comes off with the head, but how will I get it timed right when installing again?



Thanks again to everyone for your input. The way I figure it as a learning experience as I'm anxious to see what happened. If its terminal then I will call the scrap guy and not keep it on life support.
If it can be saved then I may need some help getting it back together, in the proper order without TOO many pieces left over

before you get too far into it, putting the dead cyl in firing position, with its piston at tdc, blow air in it through the gp hole. do you hear air in the air intake, the exhaust, or crankcase?

Everything needs to come off. Remove intake manifold and EGR cooler. Remove tandem pump and coolant flange from back of engine. I suggest remove turbo from exhaust manifold. Remove 3 bolts from exhaust manifold to down pipe. Then remove all nuts from exhaust manifold. If you try to just remove the nuts from head to exhaust manifold with turbo in place, it will be impossible, if not very difficult, to get the head off. You won't be able to push the manifold far enough away from the head to clear the studs. I realize you are not a mechanic, but you will be in really deep. I also found it helpful to use an engine hoist to lift the head straight off. Good luck. When you pull off this repair you will definitely have taken your mechanic skills to a new level.

if an air test was done, and it was determined that there is a piston problem, the engine has to come out anyway, making head removal easier. Hopefully you did that and found that the problem is in the head before removing it.

You are not that far from Port Jervis and Jason TDIjetta99. If you want the job done right the first time get assistance.

you can pull the entire head with turbo, intake manifold, tandem pump all still installed, just disconnect at key points... but you will need a hoist as the entire package is quite hefty

Hey guys,
Thanks for all the encouragement and advice. Actually Jason has worked on the car and did timing belt and BSM replacement as well as cam shaft etc.
He is about an hour and twenty away but I'm not driving the car there on Three cylinders.

Thanks Jim for the input. I was just figuring the same thing. No reason the head should not come up with hoist without removing the intake, turbo and accessories. They are all attached to the head and should come off as one unit, albeit a heavier unit

The head is currently loose with pretty much everything disconnected exept the oil feed for turbo from the block. The braided pipe above the support bracket that attaches the turbo to block.
Quick question should that line be removed from Block or the turbo end. The top line unfortunately was a casualty and succumbed to my over eagerness and rust.
I read the post afterward on saving the turbo feed line with different methods to save.

I had a bit of fun with the s Shaped box wrench, 12 mm getting off that 3rd nut from turbo to downpipe. I had to file it down in order to get a snug fit over the nut and make turn.

So hopefully by tomorrow night I will have the head off and be able to report back with whats happening. If its a valve issue with no piston damage I may give tou a call Jim and work a deal on that head.
Oh another question , that sensor that screws on exaust manifold above the turbo. How do you get the wire off of that?
I know it sounds like a dumb question but I can't see a removable connection unless its crimped on there pretty good, but it cant be hard wired?

I pulled the head on my passat just about two months ago for my head gasket repair. It was involved but very straight forward.

I hope you have the timing belt tools...get that engine locked into tdc. I removed the egr cooler and then the intake manifold first. Then I removed the turbo with manifold as one. It was a little tricky getting it out but with patience it will come out. The plug for the exhaust temp sensor is just under the coolant reservoir. The wire snakes behind and low, back by where the tandem pump is along the fire wall. There are 3 zip ties holding it in various places. Just follow the wire over to the plug. DO NOT TRY TO PULL THE TANDEM PUMP, there is no room. I left it on and I had no issues with getting the head off and out. You do have to disconnect the two fuel hoses which are tricky to get to. The vacuum line is easy, just undo one of the crimp clamps and it pulls right off....replace crimp clamp with screw clamp when re installed. There is room to remove the plastic coolant housing just under the tandem pump and I recommend doing this. Just two 10mm bolts...its tight but I got it... and so can you. Loosen the hard coolant line running along the glow plug side so you can get to the glow plug connectors. This also helps get that plastic coolant housing out of the way more.

Once this is done, you are ready to remove the timing belt. Set the engine to tdc and place the various locks. I even marked the belt according to its direction and I marked various points on both the belt and the pullies to help with re installation. Loosen the tensioner nut and release the tension using an allen wrench...6mm i believe. Once loose, place your locking pin and then continue rotating clockwise till you feel resistance, the belt should be very loose at this point. Now snug the nut up so the tensioner stays in this position and the belt should come right off without doing anything else. I did this so I would not have to mess with the cam sprocket. I didnt have vag-com so I didnt have a way to set the torsion value...so I just left it alone. Now remove the tensioner and the idler pulley, remove the rear timing belt cover and one final look over everything.....you are now ready to pull the head. Loosen the bolts 1/4 turn at a time....or less and in the correct removal sequence. When removing the head...make sure everything is out of your way and lift straight up. Once you lift it up, get it out of there or else you risk buggering up the head surface. I rested my arm on the valence just above the head as I lifted to give me leverage.

Hope this helps....and good luck. Its not that bad really! I did it and it was my first time turning a wrench on a vw and a tdi for that matter.... Car is now nearing 1400 miles on repair and is running great.

***
EDIT
***

I found it easy to unbolt the turbo oil drain line from the underside of the turbo rather than the pan. Also, I may have made this sound easier than it is. You better know what you are doing or you are never gonna get this car back on the road. Read up on my turbo diesel dot com. They have a how to section for the b5.5 that should serve as a great resource. Getting the timing set right is crucial!!!! YOU NEED SPECIAL TOOLS FOR THIS JOB.

Well I managed to get the head off with everything intact on the manifold side including tandem pump and turbo.
The engine hoist is a Godsend.


The bolts for the head drop into the head a bit and will interfere with removal unless they are taken out completely. The two on the rear firewall passenger side couldn't be removed because they were restricted by the manifold.
I raised as far as possible and tied them off.

[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/mcglock910/media/image_zpsa3c8735b.jpg.html]

The head is pretty heavy with everything attached. So from what I can see it looks like a Dropped Valve.

[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/mcglock910/media/image_zps787b0ec0.jpg.html]

If thats what a dropped valve looks like? But it has dropped -

The pistons themselves don't seem to have any damage from what I can tell on preliminary
Inspection , but I have to rotate the engine to bring the other two to top for further evaluation.

[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/mcglock910/media/image_zpsad807dd6.jpg.html]

That clear star pattern on the concave of piston is that the burn pattern. I noticed its different on one than the other.
Now back to further examination of the head.
Do you think this head could be re-used and just repair the valve or is it possible the head
Is warped.?
Thanks again for all the input. Nice write up Newlite I appreciate it.
For what its worth ALLDAT didn't show diddly on head except an etch a sketch drawing.

Well I spoke too soon. When I rotated the engine and examined the other pistons,
Bam.
**** sherlock a crack. damm.



The piston does have some cavitation on top compared to the smooth surface of the others so i may have some water making steam in there from gasket been shot.

Never seen a cracked piston before,
[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/mcglock910/media/image_zps21796a2f.jpg.html]





Cracked one is all the way to left.
Now what are my options? Can i replace just one cylinder? Or should I "Just laugh knowingly and walk away"

Time to contact Franko6. You can replace one piston as long as the rod is not bent. If it is, then a new rod is in order. You must check the new rod against the others for length. All 4 pistons should have the same protrusion above the block. Pistons and rods should be the same weight +/- very little.

Head should be rebuilt. I suggest calling Franko6.

turbocharged798 said:

wow, the only things that can cause no compression would be a dropped valve or a cracked pistons.

That's odd.

Click to expand...

Don't mean to brag but I hit the nail on head on this one.

If the bore is good and the rod isn't bent, hone the cylinder and drop in a new piston.