Water Pump Failure

WildChild80

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Yeah, the pump that locked up in my engine looked very similar. I'll dig it out and get the brand name.

If you notice, that pump has the cast iron impeller. I don't like those... I like the stamped metal or brass impeller. I've never seen a TDI engine with a plastic impeller Water Pump but have seen them on several gasser engine water pumps. But, impeller design doesn't have anything to do with shaft or bearing failure... or seal.
 

Ill Named

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2011
Location
Central BC
TDI
2001 Golf, 2003 Golf
I'm dealing with something very similar. I have 2.5 years and 50000 kilometers on this pump. Just off of warranty. It was a completely new motor with entirely new coolant and it is leaking already. I haven't began to repair it yet. What really odd about the leak in mine is that if I drive it, it won't leak, but if I leave it sit for a few days, it'll leave a small puddle under the car on the passenger side. It's coming from the bottom of the timing belt compartment, only thing it can be...



It is a Hepu brand. I'll probably fix it over Christmas. Weird thing is that it doesn't seem to be going through any coolant at all...
 

U4ick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Location
texas
TDI
2003 jetta tdi
Quote from Pronto " Our ISO/TS16949 certified factories utilize high quality internal components to guarantee long lasting performance. "


Code for C.R.A.P.
 

Cleenlivin

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Location
So Cal
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI Sedan (DSG) boughtback, 2004 Jetta TDI Sedan (Tiptronic), 2004 Jetta TDI Sedan (5 speed)
Smoke and Mirrors....

It seems like many of the pop-up Chinese companies do a good job at making their products sound and look like the real deal (propaganda) but care nothing about real quality, performance, reliability or long term reputation.

It's like buying a used car that's been painted and fixed so it lasts just long enough for the warranty to expire or for the seller to get out of town.

I know many of the name brand water pumps are made their too, but hopefully those companies have better oversight of the quality control.
 

jackfolstam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Location
CA
TDI
MkI Rabbit ALH swap



I'll get a shop vac and canned air tomorrow and go over the cylinders, but there's no way I can account for every little flake in there. Are those just carbon or metal? Should I be scared of rotating the bottom end if carbon? I didn't really look at the valves yet. I'm also going to measure protrusion tomorrow and disassemble the other head to take to the machine shop at the FLAPS.
Also, do I need ARP stud grease or is it nothing special?
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
The cylinders are metal (cast iron). The pistons are aluminum.

Looks like all exhaust valves have been hit by the pistons.... or, put in a different perspective, looks like all pistons hit their respective exhaust valve.

Nope! It will not hurt to rotate the crankshaft (pistons up and down). Just rotate it clock-wise. There may be oil pushed out the oil gallery there by the second head stud from the right on the front... see the small hole!

I'd use lots of paper towels to clean up the oil and cylinder walls. The soot/carbon on top of the pistons is there to stay unless you do a full disassemble. Then, you can clean them all nice and shiny. You can do some cleaning by rotating each piston to the top....... personally, I'd leave the carbon as is. Just mop-up the oil and blow out any debris that may have dislodged and fell into the area around the circumference of each piston.
 

jackfolstam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Location
CA
TDI
MkI Rabbit ALH swap
I'm still worried that the bits could harm the rings or cylinder walls, so hopefully tomorrow I'll vacuum while spraying with canned air before it rains tomorrow and check protrusion, got a dial indicator and magnetic base. That reminds me...I should spray it all down with WD40 and stuff clean rags in the bores before it rains too...

I'd imagine that if I clean the tops of the pistons that they will just get sooty again in one combustion cycle.

Andybees I'm working on my first Vanagon, 86 Syncro and boy would I like to put an ALH in it. The owner bought another 2.1L that we installed but from GEX...
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I'd imagine that if I clean the tops of the pistons that they will just get sooty again in one combustion cycle.

Andybees I'm working on my first Vanagon, 86 Syncro and boy would I like to put an ALH in it. The owner bought another 2.1L that we installed but from GEX...
Yeah, the soot will accumulate in short order.

ALH in Vanagon .... http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=276798
 

Curious Chris

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 11, 2001
Location
Pineview GA
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 RIP Rockford IL
I bet all the water pumps are made at the same factory and just labeled with whatever they want to call it today. I am an engineer and I have seen that in action.
 

jackfolstam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Location
CA
TDI
MkI Rabbit ALH swap
The Bentley doesn't give too much definition for piston protrusion differences: "Cylinder measurements that differ substantially from each other are an indication of internal engine damage."

My engine:
Cylinder 1 - 0.036 in
Cylinder 2 - 0.038 in
Cylinder 3 - 0.038 in
Cylinder 4 - 0.038 in

My measurements were pretty quick, I could get down to the half thousandths tomorrow.
I had a 2 notch gasket on there but it sounded more diesel-y than my friend's ALH, I'll put a 1 notch on there unless anyone can talk me out of it.

 

ToxicDoc

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Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
I bet all the water pumps are made at the same factory and just labeled with whatever they want to call it today. I am an engineer and I have seen that in action.
There could be a couple of factories. Hard to say. Economics would suggest they're be at least two until the demand for pumps went down. Definitely you can have several brands all made from one place. This is common throughout all industries (clothing, electronics, etc).
 

03TDICommuter

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Dec 8, 2016
Location
So. Cal
TDI
01' NB, 5spd
I bet all the water pumps are made at the same factory and just labeled with whatever they want to call it today. I am an engineer and I have seen that in action.
Doubt it but I'm sure there are some common factories for the aftermarket ones.

With VW rebuilt being just $88, I think I'll go that way when it's time to do my TB.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Below, all from ALH engines... Brass, Plastic and Cast ... (sorry about the focus)



Below, steel cast impeller (very crude)



Below, brass cast



Below, black plastic



Below, stamped metal impeller

........ unfortunately, I don't have a pic but there is one of these WPs in my stash...

I cannot say where they are made, but, as I recall, they all have their unique name brand.

The WPs I've changed on Gassers, mostly New Beetles, all had OE Plastic Impellers that slipped on the shaft once the engine was up to normal operating temps.
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
Shoot I've installed the stamped metal pumps in three cars over the past year, now I'm worried about it.
 

jackfolstam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Location
CA
TDI
MkI Rabbit ALH swap
Shoot I've installed the stamped metal pumps in three cars over the past year, now I'm worried about it.
Any complaints so far? What's there to worry about?

I just got a Graf pump from Autohaus AZ, their pic shows a black impeller.



The real thing came with a stamped metal impeller.
 
Last edited:

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
No, no complaints yet. Only put maybe 8k on the one I did first, less on the other two. Ordered them from Halsey German imports.
 

03TDICommuter

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Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Location
So. Cal
TDI
01' NB, 5spd
Below, all from ALH engines... Brass, Plastic and Cast ... (sorry about the focus)
That brass looks pretty nice. The cast looks really shoddy, poor vane definition and port holes.

The plastic ones that slipped, were they older ones before VW updated the plastic type? The VW ones all look like they have a metal center that's pressed onto the shaft. Some of the aftermarket plastic ones don't look like they do.
 

jackfolstam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Location
CA
TDI
MkI Rabbit ALH swap
I found two little cracks in the spare head at the injector holes, and the machinist thinks it's warped (he held up a block of metal that didn't seem all that flat to me), so I'll take a closer look at the original head.
 

jackfolstam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Location
CA
TDI
MkI Rabbit ALH swap
I read a few threads about people getting unlucky with aftermarket valves. I bought a full set of TRW and started to lap them in. I then decided to reuse the OEM intake valves instead. Then I just thought, why not use the OEM exhaust valves, lifters and cam out of the other head? I've heard plenty stories of these engines with original parts getting tons of miles. A question, if I already lapped 2 of the TRW exhaust valves in, how bad would it be to lap in the other set of OEM valves? Like how much lapping can be done on a seat?
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Long story short, ....ALH head that was milled way too much required cutting the valve seats as well as cutting the same off the stem of the valve.......... which Bentley says not to do. It was either do this or dump the head. The owner said do it. That's been 8 or 9 years ago. Last I heard that engine was doing just fine.

So lapping is going to be insignificant compared to what we done to that head.
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
I had the same thing happen to me at 98K miles but didn't have total blow out like yours. Don't know the brand of pump, but the parts were from an IDparts kit, which is the only kits I have used.



The failures experienced here look to be the shaft bearings. The impellers are not the problem.

Your piston protrusion numbers look good to me.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Nope, impellers are not the problem. But, it is quite interesting to see the array of impellers in use.

Seems the WP that locked up in my engine come from IDparts as well. There's only two vendors that I've purchased kits from in recent years and it has been a long while since purchased anything from the other one.
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Nope, impellers are not the problem. But, it is quite interesting to see the array of impellers in use.

Seems the WP that locked up in my engine come from IDparts as well. There's only two vendors that I've purchased kits from in recent years and it has been a long while since purchased anything from the other one.
I've had no problems with the previous kits nor any of the many people who i have installed them here locally. Maybe a bad batch from a particular manufacturer. I couldn't tell what brand mine was.
 

WildChild80

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Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
I've got 3 hepu metal impeller water pumps, one has about 55k on it and no problems so far

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Jokila, going back in this Thread, looks like promised to dig out the old locked-up WP. But, I don't think it is at my garage. My incident happened very near where my uncle lives. So, the Van was towed to his garage where he and I did the TB replacement work. Thus, I suspect the pump has been recycled. But, as I recall, there was not a name on the pump.
 

jackfolstam

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Location
CA
TDI
MkI Rabbit ALH swap
Thank you who recommend my service. I appreciate that.

What should or should not be replaced; I'll speak from experience....rarely do we replace every single valve... and that is in thousands of heads produced in our shop. Virtually the only time all valves get replaced is if they are all bent. Otherwise, it is rare that a valve is rejected due to stem wear. Our success rate declares our position.

Valves from a 200,000 mile car are generally, reusable. We've reinstalled the original OEM valves, minus two that were bent, in an engine with 610,000 miles. Now that engine has 735,000 miles and it still has the OEM original valves in the head. Valves are a case by case basis, but unless you are just anal, they DO NOT need replaced. Bent valves are BAD VALVES. Otherwise, we fit valve guides to valve stems.

200,000 miles means the cylinder head needs new valve guides. Our shop replaces them and we make them tight. We find the .051" rock measurement tolerance VW allows for stem/ valve clearance unrealistic. Concentrically cut valves to seats; dropping the valve straight into the seat is the art.

If someone is replacing all the valves, money is being spent unnecessarily. Knowing the difference what should or should not be replaced is being gentle to the customer's bank account. Also, there are few companies that make really good replacement valves. I'd rather keep a good, reusable OEM valves in the head.
Found the info I need.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
I've now seen two "early" WP failures -- one at 80k miles (mine) and one at 68k miles (a friend's.) Both were caught before they self-destructed and ate the belt and head; both were leaking coolant from the shaft. Neither had notable play when pulled from the block but both clearly WERE leaking from the shaft seal, and if not replaced would have likely destroyed the bearing eventually and then.... oops.

With the original interval on these belts being 60k miles, then 80k, maybe it's just that the water pump can't go the 100k+? I don't know -- but I've now changed two that had essentially identical failures, and neither had anything else wrong in the timing belt system (tensioner ok, rollers ok, etc) that could account for the failure.

If you start loosing coolant. even just a little, FIND THE PROBLEM and if its leaking behind the timing belt cover and looks to be the pump -- it probably is.
 

WildChild80

Veteran Member
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May 30, 2016
Location
Nashville, AR
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI 2000 Jetta TDI 2000 New Beetle TDI ALL 5 speeds
I'm intrigued by the failures. It seems like a higher than acceptable level of failure and the only thing I could think of aside from MFG defect could be over tightening of the belt? I'm all ears...but if it were overtightened, shouldn't there be play in the shaft bearings. Could if be wrong coolant? I've seen green coolant in ALH cars...how much does it hurt things?

Or is it just bad water pumps?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 
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