Hard starting 2002 Golf TDI

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
Recently purchased a 244k miles Golf. The car will start in cold/warm weather, but drive it in a warm garage and leave it sit for a few hours it will just crank and crank with no light off. It has done this numerous times so it is not just a once in a while happening. Readings from a Vag-Com indicate the following areas of interest. Under Group 000 - 006 Injected Quantity = 006 (at idle). Coolant temp was 95 degrees C so engine was warm. The other area of interest is the Group 13 -
-0.05 mg/str IQ Cylinder 1
-0.16 mg/str IQ Cylinder 2
-0.68 mg/str IQ Cylinder 3
0-89 mg/str IQ Cylinder 4
Realizing this test is within the allowable +2/-2 tollerance, but is there a tolerance between cylinders that should also be an area of concern such as if one is +2 and another -2.
This is a beautiful site and thanks for any help is appreciated!:D
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Long shot, but maybe the anti shutter valve is hanging closed from the previous shut down?
I've had that in colder weather, never in a warm garage.
Rich W.
 

Corsair

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Location
Weedsport, New York
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5M
I thought the desired relative tolerance on IQ was around +/- 0.5, but at any rate I don't think your numbers are terrible. I'm not sure I understand the symptom...? The car starts if left outside in the cold ? And starts when warm ? But won't start when left in a garage ? I'd recommend if haven't checked already, use VCDS and check the dynamic injection timing. Where is it relative to the min / middle / max limit lines ?
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
I will look at the thread you listed and the beast has a 5 speed manual. Thank you!
The engine will have a clear fuel line from the fuel filter to the injection pump.

While the engine is running do you see air bubbles in the line?
Occasionally or constantly? or at all?
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
Corsair concerning symptoms when the weather was "cold" here in PA. The beast seemed to start ok outside, but after being in my warm garage for an extended period (6 hrs. or more) she would just not start and when it did start lots of white smoke. Since the weather has moderated it does the same outside as well. I will check the dynamic injection timing tomorrow. Thank you.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
I am seeing constant bubbles in the clear line from the filter to the pump.
not good...

Now get crafty and put a length of clear fuel line between the hose from the fuel tank (the one with white markings, not blue) and the filter to see if the bubbles are entering the fuel system before they hit filter. I am lucky enough to have a near by True Value Hardware that sells clear fuel line, not vinyl, in various sizes...

I have run into in-tank fuel senders that have had cracks in the internal pick-up tubes or a bad o ring on the pick up tube. You can check this right at the fuel delivery side without having to pull the sender out of the tank.

This is all much easier to do if you have an vacuum oil extractor...or a mity vac with a big reservoir.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
If you can get a solid line of fuel in the clear tube then the leak is most likely because of a leaky thermostatic tee on the return side of the filter or the 2 o rings on the TEE.
 
Last edited:

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
not good...

Now get crafty and put a length of clear fuel line between the hose from the fuel tank (the one with white markings, not blue) and the filter to see if the bubbles are entering the fuel system before they hit filter. I am lucky enough to have a near by True Value Hardware that sells clear fuel line, not vinyl, in various sizes...

I have run into in-tank fuel senders that have had cracks in the internal pick-up tubes or a bad o ring on the pick up tube. You can check this right at the fuel delivery side without having to pull the sender out of the tank.

This is all much easier to do if you have an vacuum oil extractor...or a mity vac with a big reservoir.
I will give this a shot. Crafty, I like that. :)
 

Rembrant

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Location
Canada's Ocean Playground
TDI
2013 Golf TDI DSG
I am seeing constant bubbles in the clear line from the filter to the pump.
My 03 was like that when I bought it. The fuel line had more bubbles than fuel...no joke. Fuel filter had about 150k miles on it. Mine was hard to start as well...but it had more issues than the fuel filter...lol.

Anyway, replaced the filter, thermostatic tee and O-rings, and almost all the bubbles went away.
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
I replaced the fuel filter, thermostatic tee (and O-rings) and both supply and return fuel lines from filter to pump. That took care of the air bubbles. Very, very few are in the clear line now. However the mother still will not start well after sitting for say 12 hours. Lots of cranking, white smoke and of course hot starter. I had the hard starting (after sitting for hours) since I acquired the car last fall, but along with the hard starting when accelerating through 3rd, 4th and 5th gears the engine shutters when under heavy load. Now I had the timing belt kit replaced a few weeks ago and that issue did not exist before that. Whether that had anything to do with anything I don't know, but food for thought. When the car has been run and shutdown, started again within 15 minutes it starts right up with no problem, but let it set for hours on end is another story. Patience is a virtue, but Lord it is testing me....
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Seeing that this started after a timing belt change...

Cold start -- Try unplugging the coolant temp sensor on the flange on the cylinder head. It will fire the glow plugs for ~20seconds. When the light goes out, start the car. Does it start right up?

Yes?
With VAGCOM go to basic settings - group 000
What does field 2 read?
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
Seeing that this started after a timing belt change...

Cold start -- Try unplugging the coolant temp sensor on the flange on the cylinder head. It will fire the glow plugs for ~20seconds. When the light goes out, start the car. Does it start right up?

Yes?
With VAGCOM go to basic settings - group 000
What does field 2 read?

Unplugged temp sensor and waited until light went out. Started fine however I will try this in the morning after it sits all night.

Field 2 reads between 64 and 74. It bounces around between that range while idling.

I will give it another try in the morning to see how it responds and post results. Thank You!:)
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
Seeing that this started after a timing belt change...

Cold start -- Try unplugging the coolant temp sensor on the flange on the cylinder head. It will fire the glow plugs for ~20seconds. When the light goes out, start the car. Does it start right up?

Yes?
With VAGCOM go to basic settings - group 000
What does field 2 read?

Let me try this again. All is correct in my last post except I was in basic functions not basic settings. Sorry! In basic settings group 000, field 2 read 000. Just goes to show even when you boldface something I still don't get it. I will let you know in the am how the beast starts.
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
Seeing that this started after a timing belt change...

Cold start -- Try unplugging the coolant temp sensor on the flange on the cylinder head. It will fire the glow plugs for ~20seconds. When the light goes out, start the car. Does it start right up?

Yes?
With VAGCOM go to basic settings - group 000
What does field 2 read?
This morning with the coolant temp sensor disconnected it fired right up! Under the basic settings - group 000 field 2 read 000.

Soooo, what is this trying to tell me?
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
The injection pump timing is very retarded.
Once the car is started, plug the temperature coolant sensor back in and let the car come up to operating temperature. (basic settings - group 000, field 9 = 110)
Then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgifTfV0HJ0

The factory adjustment - field 2 would be ~050
For best cold weather starting, adjust field 2 to 070. (near the green line on the graph)

So if you are at field 2 = 000, you need to bump the 22mm wrench toward the front of the car... tighten the 3 bolts...check, then adjust until you get the numbers right. If you see that field 2 = 256 you went too far in either direction.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
BTW... disconnecting the coolant temp sensor with the key ON will trigger a code so don't forget to clear it.
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
The injection pump timing is very retarded.
Once the car is started, plug the temperature coolant sensor back in and let the car come up to operating temperature. (basic settings - group 000, field 9 = 110)
Then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgifTfV0HJ0

The factory adjustment - field 2 would be ~050
For best cold weather starting, adjust field 2 to 070. (near the green line on the graph)

So if you are at field 2 = 000, you need to bump the 22mm wrench toward the front of the car... tighten the 3 bolts...check, then adjust until you get the numbers right. If you see that field 2 = 256 you went too far in either direction.
Thank you! I will get to it later this week. I did clear the fault code. Thanks again and I will let you know how I make out...
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
The injection pump timing is very retarded.
Once the car is started, plug the temperature coolant sensor back in and let the car come up to operating temperature. (basic settings - group 000, field 9 = 110)
Then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgifTfV0HJ0

The factory adjustment - field 2 would be ~050
For best cold weather starting, adjust field 2 to 070. (near the green line on the graph)

So if you are at field 2 = 000, you need to bump the 22mm wrench toward the front of the car... tighten the 3 bolts...check, then adjust until you get the numbers right. If you see that field 2 = 256 you went too far in either direction.
You are spot on! After adjusting, the pump timing is now between 46 and 50. It starts like a champ 1st time every time.

The car still has a shutter, while accelerating. Most noticeable in 3rd and higher gears. This did not occur until the timing belt was changed so I don't know if this is a coincidence or not. There are some threads that deal with this issue and I will look there.

Thanks to all who assisted with the starting issue. I have much to learn on this critter!
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Inner CV joints maybe? Ball joints or tie rods?
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
Inner CV joints maybe? Ball joints or tie rods?
Both axle assemblies were replaced 2 months ago along with one tie rod end and both ball joints. Of course that means nothing. I did have an alignment after all of this work and they said all looked good. I will give it another look anyway. Rebuilt does not mean good..
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
The latest on this queen is I had it to a local VW dealer. They certainly noticed the issue, but were unable to determine the cause. They wanted to replace axles. Instead of them completing that task I replaced both axles and the shudder is still there. I have moved on to the injectors. They were tested and all failed spec. Now I don't have any numbers on exactly what failed, but I will get that information after they rebuild all four and i pick them up. We shall see!
 

rkaylor

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Location
Lebanon Pennsylvani
TDI
2002 Golf
The fix for all the shaking during acceleration was a bad fuel injector(s). I had all four tested and all failed the POP test (?). Had all rebuilt and lo and behold the mother runs as good as it ever had. I would love to know WHAT in the injectors would have caused it, but thank the Lord it runs like a 245,000 mile TDI should! Thanks for all the help folks. I truly appreciate it!!!
 
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