Beef on a Budget. VR6/Wagon springs

Geordi said:

If you are towing, the tongue weight also gets added to the rear axle number of people/cargo, and the total trailer weight PLUS the people/cargo weight must not exceed the door sticker's number for GCWR: Gross Combined Weight Rating

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The door sticker only contains the GVWR and GAWR, not the GCWR.

Your description of GCWR is correct but the rating of around 3800lbs on the door only includes weight placed upon the axles of the vehicle, not the weight on the trailer axle.

professorxjosh said:

So after reading through the 18 pages of this tread I am very interested in doing my suspension. I'll start first with my needs/wants: I am a scuba diver. I bought this car because of the MPG's for long trips, reliability because I'm a college student, and because diesels are awesome. At times, I'll have up to 5 tanks in my car, that's 200 pounds of weight in my trunk/hatch. I want something that's going to give me better handling but keep the car lifted so that the excess weight doesn't have the car bottoming out.
Now, I have looked at the many options and sees where I'm confused is with the struts and shocks. I'm definitly going to do the VR6 front springs and Wagon rears via RockAuto. I was pretty set on the VR6 refresh kit from Blau but after reading I can do the Bilstein TCSports for roughly the same price it seems that is a better option, since it seems the quality of the Blauparts kit is a little iffy, or subpar. But I am on a budget, college student budget which is why I was leaning towards the Blauparts kit.
I'm looking for recommendations and suggestions for what you guys think I should do. I also plan to tow my motorcycle after I put a hitch on the car in the future, figured that would be good for you guys to know when suggesting the best set up for me. Thanks I'm advance guys.

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I'll be honest... 200lbs isnt going to make you bottom out. Not even close. Unless you just want the lift because you do, you'd be fine with just new dampners... say Bilstein HDs. Thats what I have in my Bug. They honestly make more difference than anything IMO.

bigsexyTDI said:

I'll be honest... 200lbs isnt going to make you bottom out. Not even close. Unless you just want the lift because you do, you'd be fine with just new dampners... say Bilstein HDs. Thats what I have in my Bug. They honestly make more difference than anything IMO.

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Thanks for the input. I'll definitely have to look into some new dampeners. Would definitely save me a lot of money going that route.
I really don't think my shocks are worn. No idea when they were replaced but they aren't super bouncy or anything, just not firm like a sport set up.

Hey guys, I got my Moogs today and noticed they rattling in the box. Sure enough they beat the crap out of each other on the ride over so there is a bit of exposed metal. I planned to rattle can the springs, at least where the metal is exposed if nothing else. Is there a better option? Should I just leave it? In AZ we don't' see much rain or snow / salted roads but I just want to make sure these have a chance to last another 100k+.

Thanks,

I would recommend you paint them as mine shipped clean but paint peeled in less than 6months anyways. I am in michigan and it was installed just before winter. There rather raw now. Haha. But still holding up great

Thanks!

This is how my 1/2 beef setup (front Moog Springs, stock rear, Blauparts v6 kit, no spacers) ended up:



It might be ever so slightly taller up front but once it settles it'll be perfect.

FWIW- I did the VR6 Moogs front and back, rubber refresh from IDPARTS as well. This combined with by Bilstein TC's and the car rides much like new--quite, firm, and tracks straight on these crappy NE winter roads. Great thread and solution.

Small tid-bit of information regarding the Moog springs.. I devised a way here at work to test the spring rate.. The rears (81055) measured at 180lbs/inch, and stand at 13.5" free height. That's stiffer than my old rear springs which measured 140lbs/inch..

The fronts however were drastically different... The moogs (81134) only measured at 125lbs/inch and stand 14" free height.. My old fronts were 2 blue, 2 white and are 170lbs/in.. Didn't measure free height..

I'm currently on the hunt for springs that are near 200lb/in rear and 250lb/in front that don't lower the car 2"... I have a set of Koni Sport springs in the car now that honestly feel softer than my old springs that are 170F/140R..

good info let keep us informed if you find anything

TDIJetta99 said:

Small tid-bit of information regarding the Moog springs.. I devised a way here at work to test the spring rate.. The rears (81055) measured at 180lbs/inch, and stand at 13.5" free height. That's stiffer than my old rear springs which measured 140lbs/inch..

The fronts however were drastically different... The moogs (81134) only measured at 125lbs/inch and stand 14" free height.. My old fronts were 2 blue, 2 white and are 170lbs/in.. Didn't measure free height..

I'm currently on the hunt for springs that are near 200lb/in rear and 250lb/in front that don't lower the car 2"... I have a set of Koni Sport springs in the car now that honestly feel softer than my old springs that are 170F/140R..

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I just installed the Shine springs with the Koni STR T and from the ground to the fender lip it is now 27.5". Ride is much better than the Koni Reds with V6 Moog springs. Also it handles much better. Ride is a subjective subject but with the Shine springs my ride quality is firm but not jarring and the struts/shocks do a good job of damping.

I also installed the Polo strut bushings which are much firmer than stock.

03Springer said:

I just installed the Shine springs with the Koni STR T and from the ground to the fender lip it is now 27.5". Ride is much better than the Koni Reds with V6 Moog springs. Also it handles much better. Ride is a subjective subject but with the Shine springs my ride quality is firm but not jarring and the struts/shocks do a good job of damping.

I also installed the Polo strut bushings which are much firmer than stock.

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Do you know the spring rates of the shine springs?

I found this on Vortex and believe that it's correct.
V6/TDI are 250lbs, these are the ones I have.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?602321-Post-your-verified-spring-rates-here

Cool, Ya the 250's in the front would be good, and I'd like something up near or slightly over 200 for the rears since I do haul stuff and pull trailers and whatnot..

Can anybody tell me the length and diameter of the Shine Racing springs both front and rear?
Thanks

I also tow with mine and what I did was put air bags in the springs which I leave deflated until I put a load in then I can inflate to level.

muddflaps said:

Can anybody tell me the length and diameter of the Shine Racing springs both front and rear?
Thanks

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I can tell you that the front springs have less coils but are much thicker than stock. Fron the ground to the lower lip of the fender on my Golf is 27.5". You don't need a spring compressor to install the springs on the struts.

I would think that 27.5 will drop after a week or so.

Still at 27.5, I used Polo strut bushings which are much denser rubber.

I'm planning my suspension purchases as well. I'm pretty sold on the Bilstein TC shocks all around. The regular A4, not the vr6/sport shocks. Supposedly only 10% firmer than stock. I am concerned with maximum comfort in this car, not handling at high speed. I have lower back issues and I do not drive fast.
So is everyone happy with the Moog VR6 springs in general? Is it worth buying new OEM springs all around at twice the price of Moog? Will Moog be alot stiffer than OEM springs? I'm at 120K miles and my suspension feels bouncy and floaty and noisy. I have the Bilstein Comfort shocks on my truck as well and I am happy with them. Just need to decide on Moog vs OEM springs.

If you're looking for comfort and to get rid of the bouncy/floaty feeling, leave the OEM springs alone and replace the dampers. Any increase in spring rate (which the moog springs have) will make the ride firmer. No sense in replacing the OEM springs - especially with only 120k on them.

I have been reading and reading, can someone please explain some stuff to me about suspension?

My 2001 Golf has 222,000 miles on the original suspension.... I want to upgrade it(by lifting), I plan to do it very soon, I needed tires so I got tires to compliment the future lift I planned while refreshing suspension, I'm running 205/75/15(on steelies) general grabber AT2!! Love them so far in sand, the beach where I spend my time, they suck in any kindof mucky grass.....


Anywho, suspension wise, I want to replace all the bushings, all the springs struts and also hopefully refreshing steering parts too.

Can someone explain very specifically what parts I need for the whole deal, I've been reading but it's been getting confusing.

What I think I understand:

Bilstein HD struts (front)

Bilstein HD shocks (rear )

Vr6 jetta wagon rear springs (front and rear) is this correct buying rear springs specifically for the front as well?

Is that the main parts?

Can someone explain exactly what bushings and other parts are neccassary that are going to be warn out by now? Is there a complete kits available, not that Ive seen?

In addition to refreshing completely I do plan to do possibly upwards of 3inch of MN lift pucks.

This thread has been helpful but also kindof confusing to me....

Easiest thing to do is order all 4 springs from Rock Auto (2 fronts, 2 rears - they're not the same) and then go purchase everything else from one of our vendors (idParts, boraparts, etc). The vendors will have kits put together with everything you should need and will also answer the phone to help you choose what kit will work best for your goals.

Fix_Until_Broke said:

Easiest thing to do is order all 4 springs from Rock Auto (2 fronts, 2 rears - they're not the same) and then go purchase everything else from one of our vendors (idParts, boraparts, etc). The vendors will have kits put together with everything you should need and will also answer the phone to help you choose what kit will work best for your goals.

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Okay, so vr6 jetta wagon rear springs for the rear of my car.
Vr6 jetta wagon front springs for the front of my car.

Thanks, I'll be calling IDparts pretty soon, I do love supporting the vendors here!
Never knew the phone operators were actually knowledgeable

2003 Wagon suspension help needed...

I just got an '03 wagon.

I already have been driving a '01 sedan for the past 2 years that's up to 169k miles now, had 138k when I got it. The wagon has more than double that on it.

The wagon's previous owner put a set of Moog wagon springs on it based on threads about them on here and was totally happy with them but he used to have a 1.8T or VR8 sedan and seems to like a "sport" ride...

He says the previous owner had the shocks/struts replaced at some point before he bought it about 60k miles ago.

The label stickers are gone from the struts, no signs of brand or model on the front ones that I can see.
I found imprinted numbers on one of the rears which google results show as Monroe sensa-trac 5984ST rear shocks for a Jetta and I'm "assuming" the fronts are the same brand. Yeah, I know... assume...

The ride with the moog springs and these shocks is almost as harsh as my buddy's lowered golf with aftermarket springs/shocks. He's running a common bilsteins setup, not sure which...

On good roads it feels smooth with tight steering but the roads here are pretty bad.

It's not like a honda riding on bump stops, it doesn't slam down hard, and it's not like it bounces a lot, actually the amount of vertical travel is very short, to the point that the rebound occasionally damn near tosses me up out of the seat (with my seatbelt on) because the wagon's vertical travel range feel considerably shortened (especially compared to my sedan) and the suspension levels out the wagon again so quickly after hitting the bumps/dips in the roads around here at highway/interstate speeds...

My sedan's vertical travel is about 3x as much and much slower dampener response but to me it's not "bouncy" or bumpy, it's just smooth and comfortable, and this wagon with these moog springs and monroe shocks is not.

The best comparison I can come up with which will be meaningless to most of you is this...
I had a 1998 Toyota Twin-Turbo Supra with KYB 4-Way shocks and Eibach springs which the Supra community refers to as great handling but a "choppy" ride, and this moog springs monroe shocks setup on this wagon is nearly identical to that Supra's ride...

On our causeway bridge, 65mph, 24 miles long to cross the lake, the southbound bridge's concrete sections are uneven so as you cross each span there's a bounce. In my sedan I almost don't even notice them. In this wagon every concrete span's seam is obvious and jarring and even with the leather seat's adjustable lumbar my lower back hurts by the time I get to the other end no matter how I set the seat...

On nice roads I'm fine with them. When I hit a good stretch of pavement it's smooth and responsive but most of the time it's just not fun to drive this wagon and I end up in my sedan instead...

I need to sell the sedan soon but I've got to somehow get the ride of this wagon more highway commuter friendly than it is now...

Any suggestions on a better shock combo for these springs?

OR

Anybody have a set of factory front and rear 5-speed wagon springs with reasonable miles on 'em they'd trade for a full set of the moogs?

Assuming the springs are the moog ones (I posted dimensions in this thread in post 111) - The choppy ride is most likely due to the dampers.

The sudden changes in velocity of the wheel assembly caused by the concrete sections are 90% absorbed by the dampers and 10% by the springs. So even if the springs were 50% stiffer (they're not), they'd only contribute a small percentage to the choppiness of the ride.

I believe Peter from ID parts was running ~700lb/in springs on his wagon (stock is ~200) with adjustable dampers set on full soft and commented that the ride was surprisingly nice and much closer to stock than expected.

My point being that dampers will have much more of an effect than springs in terms of ride quality on poor roads so don't necessarily change the springs as you won't likely get the effect you're looking for.

I've really enjoyed the Koni FSD's with the moog springs - firmer than stock, but in a good way, not harsh at all.

Fix_Until_Broke said:

If you're looking for comfort and to get rid of the bouncy/floaty feeling, leave the OEM springs alone and replace the dampers. Any increase in spring rate (which the moog springs have) will make the ride firmer. No sense in replacing the OEM springs - especially with only 120k on them.

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Thx for the advice. So you think my factory springs have not "sagged" at all in 12 years and 120k miles? Also, I like that the Moogs might give a slight bit of a lift, and I'm actually thinking about a 1" lift kit as well. I have more speed bumps in my daily drive than I know what to do with. Minimum of 6 steep brutal speed bumps, more if I go near the super markets etc.
I'm ok with the oem height as it is now, but I would welcome an extra inch.

I guess I'm just wondering if it's a night & day difference in comfort between oem and moog. On my MK6 golf I had solowerks coilovers, so I know first hand what slammed horrible cheap suspension feels like. Are you familiar with those, which are nearly identical to FK Silverlines? If you think Moog might feel anything like those, that would be what I need to know.
But I am going with the Bilstein TC comfort shocks, so the ride will be nice and soft.
Or would you recommend keeping my 120k mile factory springs and adding a 1" lift kit, or getting new oem springs with a lift kit. I figure since I'm going to be doing pretty much everything, why leave out the springs. I'm going to be doing all control arm bushings, tie rod ends, rear axle bushings, ball joints, etc, everything that could be rotting in the next 100k miles, since it clearly sounds like a mess under there as is.

I'm sure they have sagged a little. Other than taking a little bit of a set (maybe 1/2"), there's likely nothing wrong with your springs so not much reason to change them given your desire for maximum comfort. As I mentioned in post 295 to zukikat, the dampers will have the most effect on ride quality - springs a much smaller amount. Since you have already chosen dampers, the spring selection will have a minor impact overall.

I changed springs and dampers and wheels/tires (170k all OEM with 205/70/15's to Moog springs and Koni FSD's with 215/55/17's) all in one shot and my girlfriend didn't notice. I'd say it got 10-15% firmer and 50% more controllable in high speed turns (which you don't do) - very subjective, impossible to quantify, etc, but it's my opinion.

You said that you want maximum comfort and are not concerned with handling as you have back issues and don't drive fast. A stiffer spring goes against that goal, even if it's just a little bit. I'm all for new parts when necessary, but the moog springs will be a little stiffer, the OEM springs are big $$ and will be the same rate as what you have now so no advantage there. Do an extra 1/2-1" of lift if you want the additional height - cheaper than OEM springs.

In the big picture - the Moog springs are less than $100 on what will likely be $1000 of parts. I understand wanting to do everything while it's apart, but there just are not many OEM spring failures. It would be like changing your lug nuts every time you got new tires - not any harm in it, but no good reason to either.

I put the moog springs in because I do drive fast, I wanted some lift and I tow a trailer a lot and wanted the extra capacity.

Fix_Until_Broke said:

If you're looking for comfort and to get rid of the bouncy/floaty feeling, leave the OEM springs alone and replace the dampers. Any increase in spring rate (which the moog springs have) will make the ride firmer. No sense in replacing the OEM springs - especially with only 120k on them.

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The front moog springs are MUCH softer than OE (120lbs/in versus OE 150-160), and the rears are stiffer (moog 180lbs/in versus OE 140)

My stock springs were 2Pink 1Green vs your 2Blue 2White - Maybe that has something to do with it?

If the rates were that much different in rate, I'd think that I would have lost ride height, not gained it when changing out the springs.

2 pink, 1 green is 150lbs/in... Spring rate doesn't determine ride height, just how far the spring is compressed under load.. Typical ALH Jetta has about 900lbs on each front spring, which for a 150lb spring it would compress it 6 inches down from free height.. 120lb spring it would compress about 7.5" which is more, but the new spring is nearly 3-3.5" taller out of the box than the old ones (at least mine were).. That's where the lift comes from, and that's also why the rear gets lifted so much more than the front (rear spring is taller and higher rate).