Anyone interested in the eGolf?

timwagon

Veteran Member
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Apr 5, 2010
Location
Hauppauge, NY
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen Stick
Virginia Dominion Power has two options for time-specified pricing focused on EV charging.

one is for whole-house pricing (applies time-adaptive price for all power) other is for an additional dedicated Meter with a different price structure.

the separate meter has cheaper off-peak rates, but comes with separate service charge for the meter.

https://www.dom.com/residential/dominion-virginia-power/ways-to-save/plug-in-electric-vehicles
Yes, PSEGLI is similar. At least your power company understands that EVs exist, PSEGLI has no information on how to utilize any rate programs for EV charging.
 
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TDIinMA

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Sep 1, 2010
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Plymouth, MA
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2011 JSW 6MT; Black uni, Cornsilk
Thanks to all for the great insights and testimonies. I really like the concept of the EV but it seems to be still in its infancy here in the US (obviously). Employers getting on board with charging stations would be a huge step forward. My commute is about 40 miles each way.

I think I will take the advice to drive one and remain open-minded. I see no need to take sides on the matter. I remember my apprehension toward TDI back in 2000, based solely on lack of HP. Then I drove the TDI Beetle and have been an avid proponent of TORQUE even since. Perhaps EV will represent my next driving epiphany. ;)
 

Dieselgeek

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Golden, CO
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2016 Golf TDI
If you like torque, the eGolf will not disappoint. If you like utter smoothness and very low noise like Lexus quiet then you will like it. The VW Golf is one of the quietest small cars made and with the electric powertrain it should be dead silent.

Maybe you can coax your employer to provide just a 240V outlet so you can plug in your stock VW EVSE after it has been modified to use 240v. OR you can just use a 120v outlet to slow charge during the day. 8 hours is way more than plenty to put back 40 miles into your eGolf. You could also preheat/precool the car before you go home if you are able to plug in at work. You can pitch it to management as a research project on charging at the workplace.
 

El Dobro

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I have PSE&G in NJ and their TOU rates and hours are not worth it.
 

meerschm

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Fairfax county VA
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2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
https://www.pseg.com/info/environment/ev/rlm-rs_rates.jsp (assuming this applies to your service)

might be worth a second look. the deal is lower off peak rates ($0.12/kwh) and higher peak rates ($0.24) from the steady ($0.17 or .18 /kwh)

car should let you program time of charge. question is if you can also program other energy users to take advantage of the pricing differential. the key to an informed decision is knowing what your energy use over time is for your house. (and what other energy use options you can control for off-peak use (dryer, washer, dishwasher, hot water heat air conditioner......)

Using energy rates of 33.7 kwh per gallon of regular gas, $0.17 per kwh is like regular gas at $5.70 per gallon, which sounds scary, until you see that you get 93 miles from that equivalent gallon. just under $0.06 per mile.

for the volt, if you get 40 mpg for gas, gas under $2.50 a gallon (premium, I think) would be less expensive than the .17 per KWH rate.

using night time pricing of $0.12 per kwh would make the price point lower, $1.74 per gallon
 

nakkers

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Location
St Catharines, Ontario
TDI
2014 Golf Wagen TDI DSG CL
I'm more in the wait and see category.

If I needed a vehicle for short trips, or regular commute within a given range, it would be on the radar.

However, I'm in Canada. And that means winter. And we also have rising electricity rates and strain on the grid. Most summers are met with pleas to turn off A/C and risks of brown or black outs. hhhmmmm.....


So, lets get something that needs more juice from the grid on a regular basis.

I'm totally down with new tech and alternative fuel vehicles.

I drive a lot. Mainly for work. But, I still do plenty of road trips with the family, visits, camping etc.

So, the JSW TDi fits the bill nicely. My motorcycle isn't bad on fuel but, it's not great on the environment.

Bring on the electrics and I hope through the masses that spend the money to lease or buy and help develop them into something that will work for me. Or my habits change so, they become useful to me.

Until then, I'll stick with diesel and cheer from the side lines.
 

El Dobro

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Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
https://www.pseg.com/info/environment/ev/rlm-rs_rates.jsp (assuming this applies to your service)

might be worth a second look. the deal is lower off peak rates ($0.12/kwh) and higher peak rates ($0.24) from the steady ($0.17 or .18 /kwh)

car should let you program time of charge. question is if you can also program other energy users to take advantage of the pricing differential. the key to an informed decision is knowing what your energy use over time is for your house. (and what other energy use options you can control for off-peak use (dryer, washer, dishwasher, hot water heat air conditioner......)

Using energy rates of 33.7 kwh per gallon of regular gas, $0.17 per kwh is like regular gas at $5.70 per gallon, which sounds scary, until you see that you get 93 miles from that equivalent gallon. just under $0.06 per mile.

for the volt, if you get 40 mpg for gas, gas under $2.50 a gallon (premium, I think) would be less expensive than the .17 per KWH rate.

using night time pricing of $0.12 per kwh would make the price point lower, $1.74 per gallon
I already went through that with PSE&G and it wasn't worth it with my schedule. Heck, my bill total for the year was less than $1100 and I'm running 75% electric and it's that low because of the trip I took to my brother's place in south Va. dropped the average.
 

Dieselgeek

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Location
Golden, CO
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2016 Golf TDI
My personal experience

If we assume that my lifetime wall to wheels efficiency is 3.5 miles per kWh then you need 11.42 kWh at your .17 per kWh to make the equivalent of 40mpg that a TDI gets (ballpark, I know some of you do a good bit better than this.). That 11.42 kWh costs $1.94 and you can drive 40 miles on electricity for that sum. So, even at .17/kWh, it is like buying diesel fuel for $1.94 a gallon. Pretty reasonable.

The average price for electricity in the US is 10.80 cents per kWh as per the government's EIA data. This cost equates to $1.23 liquid fuel if you want to drive 40 miles in an electric car. This is the best comparison in costs that I can come up with. Alternatively, our cost per mile is 2.8 cents per mile and that is calculated from how much electricity comes out of our meter to feed the cars and includes all charging losses. We pay $342 per year to drive 12,000 miles. That is for two adults and two cars. We are lucky to drive so little.

We charge at night when the west Texas wind farms pump out electricity. The "strain on the grid" argument is a tired one and has been debunked a plenty. You just don't charge at 5 o'clock on a hot August afternoon.
 
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Dieselgeek

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My point in all of these posts is to keep reality in check. I don't like to see misinformation getting spread around. Most TDI drivers need the range that almost all EVs just don't have at this time. There is simply no finer machine for longer distance driving than a TDI. But if you crunch the numbers and can afford to have one in-town and one out-of-town car then you might find that a BEV (or PHEV) might work for your household and really lower your per mile transportation cost. And driving on electricity is very pleasant and addictive. Go test drive one if you get a chance.
 

bizzle

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May 21, 2013
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Southern California
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I'm tempted to get one this year but in the process of buying a house two blocks from work. I'm not sure it would get used enough as a grocery getter and, although the incentives are going to expire sooner rather than later, technology will be better in a couple years when we're better situated for a new car.

If the house falls through I'll be buying one.
 

Supaflygti

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Md
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2011 Jetta TDI
I still do not get the electric hype...there are so many arguments against their viability that nobody ever brings up and the moment someone does, they are battered with criticism for challenging the EV cult. Maybe this question/answer with Bill Reinert, one of the chief developers on the Prius will shed some light...

K.M.: Today, manufacturers are going multiple directions in methods to power cars. You spent your career studying the pros and cons of the advanced technologies used in cars and in trying to foresee which ones made the most sense. Many people, including Elon Musk, expect that electric cars can solve our transportation problems. You saw through that pipe dream long ago and maintain your position that electric cars are not the best answer, and time has proven you right so far from the demand side. What are your current thoughts about electric cars?

Reinert: Essentially my position on electric cars hasn’t changed. There’s nothing promising beyond the lithium battery on the battery horizon. The lithium battery has tremendous shortcomings for cars, for example, it doesn’t maintain a full charge in hot weather which creates a battery degradation cycle. Some Leaf owners are only getting 50 miles per charge, now, following the Leaf’s battery life degradation. Even the Tesla’s Model S, with its biggest battery, when driven like a normal car can’t always deliver 200 miles of range and the superchargers are currently 200 miles away from each other. To get from one supercharger to another you have to hyper mile that car. That means you have to drive around 50 miles an hour because wind resistance increases at the cube of speed, and you have to keep your air conditioner and other accessories off.

To give a Tesla much extra driving range, the battery weight required would greatly decrease the distance it could travel per kilowatt and also greatly increase its cost. In comparison, by adding just a little weight in the way of a few extra gallons of gas to a 50 mile-per-gallon hybrid car, there can be a big extension of the hybrid’s driving range. While I don’t expect the battery car to get dramatically better, the internal combustion engine is getting phenomenally better, like the great little Ford Ecoboost three cylinder engine.

But I will say there is a worthwhile role for electrification in the car and that’s in the high performance hybrid. To illustrate this we can look at racing. Racing development was what used to help engineers develop better cars for the road. Then, it got to the point where road cars became way more sophisticated than racing cars. But now if you look at Formula One, they don’t talk about hybrids, they talk about energy harvesting, so that anytime you let up on the gas, energy gets stored. By storing massive amounts of energy into a battery or ultra capacitor, the cars are fast, and, they get great fuel economy.

Given that the bar gets raised all the time, it’s hard to see where the case for an electric car really comes in. Is it for carbon reduction? No, you’d have to decarbonize the whole grid to make that case, and that’s not likely to happen. I don’t know the case for the electric car. There’s going to continue to be a market for them but it’s going to be a very small market, not a captive market.
 

Dieselgeek

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Golden, CO
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To believe anything that anyone at Toyota has to say about BEV's is to leave the fox guarding the henhouse. They have lost so much and have so much to lose still from the further development of the BEV and the usable range PHEV, the Volt. Their cash cow is the pure hybrid Prius and from what we know about the next gen of Prius it will still be all about the pure hybrid. They have a smoke and mirrors thing going with hydrogen and fuel cells but they got no game on pure electric drive. So they naysay. A LOT. They even have a lithium battery PHEV and yet they still naysay lithium. I'd hate to be a plugin Prius owner with the parent company saying negative things about lithium batts. The nextgen Prius soon to be released is probably going to have an upgraded version with lithium batteries over the base car's NiMH battery and yet they still naysay. They are just trying to buy themselves some time until their engineers catch up which I personally hope they never do given their f'ing arrogance and the damage they do to the superiority of BEV in most of their customer base's actual driving patterns. If Toyota made a PHEV Prius with a 40 mile range right now then they would rule the world, even if Chevrolet's 2nd gen Volt had 50 miles pure electric range. I really hope that GM gets it right with Gen 2 of the Volt. Toyota will be in a world of hurt if that happens. I applaud Toyota for their technical achievement with the Prius but hate them for the resistance to what is clearly next.

As far as decarbonizing the grid, it gets cleaner everyday. So many BEV and PHEV owners have solar (like myself) and coal plants get shut down all of the time. We are already at less than 50% coal right now and more and more big solar installations come online every year. We're moving in the right direction. Just gotta call BS on the naysayers.
 

piotrsko

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Aug 11, 2013
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Reno Nv
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2013 Golf, 2000 F-250 (7.3)
I dunno. I have a converted ranger. Most of these arguments are from people that dont drive one.

If you REALLY have to go 100 us miles one way then even god cant help you. Get a gasser. I have 40 ish miles range and i havent gotten stranded anywhere yet. Raj my buddy drove to the SF bay from Reno in his leaf and back with a couple of charge stops. He didnt die either. When the wife's tdi gets old the Egolf is on my list, but I might be biased.
 

msantram

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Jan 2, 2013
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PA & NYC
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2011 SportWagen TDI DSG (Buyback 2018.01.30)
I dunno. I have a converted ranger.
converted? did you convert your Ford Ranger to diesel? there was a great build with a guy who documented the entire build. you may have reignited my wish for the diesel amarok golf truck
 

Supaflygti

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May 10, 2014
Location
Md
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2011 Jetta TDI
To believe anything that anyone at Toyota has to say about BEV's is to leave the fox guarding the henhouse. They have lost so much and have so much to lose still from the further development of the BEV and the usable range PHEV, the Volt. Their cash cow is the pure hybrid Prius and from what we know about the next gen of Prius it will still be all about the pure hybrid. They have a smoke and mirrors thing going with hydrogen and fuel cells but they got no game on pure electric drive. So they naysay. A LOT. They even have a lithium battery PHEV and yet they still naysay lithium. I'd hate to be a plugin Prius owner with the parent company saying negative things about lithium batts. The nextgen Prius soon to be released is probably going to have an upgraded version with lithium batteries over the base car's NiMH battery and yet they still naysay. They are just trying to buy themselves some time until their engineers catch up which I personally hope they never do given their f'ing arrogance and the damage they do to the superiority of BEV in most of their customer base's actual driving patterns. If Toyota made a PHEV Prius with a 40 mile range right now then they would rule the world, even if Chevrolet's 2nd gen Volt had 50 miles pure electric range. I really hope that GM gets it right with Gen 2 of the Volt. Toyota will be in a world of hurt if that happens. I applaud Toyota for their technical achievement with the Prius but hate them for the resistance to what is clearly next.

As far as decarbonizing the grid, it gets cleaner everyday. So many BEV and PHEV owners have solar (like myself) and coal plants get shut down all of the time. We are already at less than 50% coal right now and more and more big solar installations come online every year. We're moving in the right direction. Just gotta call BS on the naysayers.


Decent argument...however, you make it sound as though more than 50% of our electricity is generated through renewables which is false. While you're right that less than 50% is generated by coal, 85% is generated by a combination of fossil fuels and nuclear. Im sure I don't need to do the math for you...that's a very small percentage that is generated by renewables and those numbers are as of 2014. We are FAR from a renewable and clean energy source that will make electric cars a viable alternative for anyone that lives outside of a city environment. It just doesn't make sense to inundate the grid with EV's that will tax it even more. I'm still a firm believer that EV's will be a niche market and that hybrid technologies, ICE advancements, synthetic diesel, bio-mass, etc will dominate the future of transportation. I'm not a naysayer but a realist...
 

Dieselgeek

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Golden, CO
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While I agree that there is a lot to do to get renewables as the main source of our electricity, our mix is improving year by year. Utility scale solar is now on par cost-wise with coal and so it is just a matter of time before coal gets pushed out of the mainstream. And I also agree that natural gas and nuclear have their drawbacks. There are even negatives about hydro and wind if you want to drill down. But to say that EV's are not viable unless we are all renewable is not really the case. It might be a hundred years before we are purely making electricity without burning fossil fuels. My personal opinion is that we need to save oil to make the strong and lightweight materials to drive radical change in the way we get around. We need to stop burning the stuff in scenarios where substitutes would be better suited for the task.

Despite where we get our electricity, the conversion efficiency of using electricity to power EV's is way beyond ICE. For a given energy input we can travel many more miles on electricity than we can by burning liquid fuel. Shoot, just making a gallon of gasoline takes approximately 4 kWh of electricity which would otherwise could be used to fuel an electric car for at least 14 miles. There are no ICE advancements that will bring ICE into parity with electricity as automotive fuel in terms of efficiency. Theoretical gasoline ICE efficiency is 46% but realistic efficiency is closer to 35%. Diesels are a little higher. Even if the theoretical efficiency is achieved through advancements in materials and controls, the efficiency of electric drive is at worst case 75% in the case of the Tesla Model S.

This forum is dedicated to diesel driving VW owners. Many people here need to travel great distances in their everyday lives and ICE for right now is the only cost efficient way to get that done. But my argument in all of this is that if you have two vehicles in a household and you don't need both of them to have unlimited range then you might find that an EV such as the eGolf or a Plugin hybrid such as the Volt or the soon to be launched Audi A3 eTron would be a great way to lower your total cost per mile, decrease emissions and increase your driving enjoyment due to lower noise and maintenance. The drivability of an electrified powertrain is right up the alley of the TDI driver, too. They are very torquey. A lot of EV naysayers look at the relatively low HP numbers of EV's and discount them without looking at the torque numbers which are proportionally nearly the same as the modern turbodiesel. We all know that torque is what it's about, right?
 

Dieselgeek

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I forgot to touch on "straining the grid". My charging setup draws 3300 Watts. My neighborhood has a bunch of residential pools. I ask, are swimming pools necessary for the preservation of life or are they really necessary at all? No, not really. I bought a house with an existing pool since I thought it would be cool to be able to go swimming with my kids while they were growing up. Up until the time I put solar on my roof I had two pool pumps that when run together drew 13A at 244VAC. One pump was for the pool filter and one was for the Polaris pool cleaner. The pumps ran at the same time for 3 hours a day. The main one ran for six hours a day. So, for three hours a day I had a 3172 Watt electrical draw to pump pool water and I didn't even think about it. They tell you to run them at the hottest part of the day to keep the chlorine well circulated so algae won't grow. And I'm conservative, too. I ran those pumps the least amount of time I could get away with and not have the water turn green. My neighbors run their pumps a lot more than I did. I have since replaced my Polaris pump with a solar power robotic cleaner and my main pump was switched to a German made variable speed pump that I run for 6 hours a day at 150 Watts.

The point of all of this is that if my electric cars which charge in the middle of the night draw 3300W for an average of 3 hours per day are "taxing" the grid then what are all of the pool pumps of the US doing to the grid? I changed my pool pump and cleaning system to reduce my electrical usage. The changes I made saved me enough electricity to pay for my driving. I changed several other things in my home that resulted in lowering my electrical usage enough to again pay for nearly all of my driving. The final awareness of what I was using to do stupid stuff like pump pool water and heat water forced me to make changes that reduced what I use. I don't think I would have the same awareness If I only drove ICE machines.
 

Supaflygti

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Location
Md
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2011 Jetta TDI
I mean you're kind of all over the place here...what is the point of EV's if we are not producing the electricity to charge them through renewable resources? If we are still burning fossil fuels (if you believe they are indeed that...research abiotic oil) then the argument is truly ridiculous. I get your point about using oil for other consumables but I just can't validate altering an entire fuel supply system to accommodate what is a minor percentage in comparison to our energy use. I find it absolutely ridiculous that with the CO2 output of current vehicles including clean diesels and PZEV's that there is even an argument for even "cleaner" solutions via the EV. What's incredibly ironic about the whole situation is that there are pending lawsuits that have been filed by various green organizations against solar and wind farms for the destruction of migratory birds...seriously?

Now...on to your efficiency standards. I'll agree that EV's are more efficient from a conversion standpoint but you're contradicting your prior argument by stating that it could be 100 years before we are producing purely clean and renewable electricity. If you take into consideration that 85% of our energy is produced by fossil fuels, your energy conversion becomes much, much lower. In fact, the ICE becomes more efficient than the EV when the electricity is produced from coal. Also, what happens when everyone jumps on the bandwagon so to speak and millions of EV's inundate the grid? Do we really expect electricity cost to not go up? Solar is great and I'm glad you have the ability but again, it's not viable for the masses...especially when you consider the immense amount of time, money and work that goes into a total infrastructure change. Instead of trying to recreate the wheel (no pun intended)...we need to focus on utilizing the current fueling infrastructure and improving synthetic and bio fuel.

Lastly...and I know I'm not alone in this statement but the fact that EV's are silent completely takes away the driving experience for me and would absolutely make my driving experience LESS desirable. I'll agree that they are torquey and provide instantaneous yet usable power...however, that was never my argument. Clearly, you're on this forum because of the efficiency aspect of TDI's and not because of your love for motorsports...which is ok...it's just not everyone's reason for owning a TDI.
 

El Dobro

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Feb 21, 2006
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NJ
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2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
I've got power strips on things around the house that have parasitic draws when off. When there's no one in the room or something's not being used, the power strip gets shut off. I rather use the juice for the car. ;)
 

Supaflygti

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Joined
May 10, 2014
Location
Md
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI
I forgot to touch on "straining the grid". My charging setup draws 3300 Watts. My neighborhood has a bunch of residential pools. I ask, are swimming pools necessary for the preservation of life or are they really necessary at all? No, not really. I bought a house with an existing pool since I thought it would be cool to be able to go swimming with my kids while they were growing up. Up until the time I put solar on my roof I had two pool pumps that when run together drew 13A at 244VAC. One pump was for the pool filter and one was for the Polaris pool cleaner. The pumps ran at the same time for 3 hours a day. The main one ran for six hours a day. So, for three hours a day I had a 3172 Watt electrical draw to pump pool water and I didn't even think about it. They tell you to run them at the hottest part of the day to keep the chlorine well circulated so algae won't grow. And I'm conservative, too. I ran those pumps the least amount of time I could get away with and not have the water turn green. My neighbors run their pumps a lot more than I did. I have since replaced my Polaris pump with a solar power robotic cleaner and my main pump was switched to a German made variable speed pump that I run for 6 hours a day at 150 Watts.

The point of all of this is that if my electric cars which charge in the middle of the night draw 3300W for an average of 3 hours per day are "taxing" the grid then what are all of the pool pumps of the US doing to the grid? I changed my pool pump and cleaning system to reduce my electrical usage. The changes I made saved me enough electricity to pay for my driving. I changed several other things in my home that resulted in lowering my electrical usage enough to again pay for nearly all of my driving. The final awareness of what I was using to do stupid stuff like pump pool water and heat water forced me to make changes that reduced what I use. I don't think I would have the same awareness If I only drove ICE machines.

Again, I'm not disputing your argument here but your point is so trivial. Your comparing a luxury item that a very small percentage of households have to a necessity item that every household needs. We are not assuming that every home in America will suddenly have a pool with necessary pump and equipment but we are making that assumption with EV's. There really is no comparing the two...
 

Dieselgeek

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Supaflygti,

So, are you saying that we should just give up on a transportation type that is clearly demonstrated to be more efficient than ICE just because it isn't 100% renewable? I just don't see why we would do that. Given there is a match for range requirement, you could be using less energy per mile travelled. That seems to be the better choice despite whatever you have to burn to make the electricity in the first place. Less energy for the same amount of work is what I choose when I can, assuming I have enough range, which I usually do. If something is more than twice as efficient and closer to three times does it matter where the energy comes from? Are you also saying that a coal plant that is run at it's most efficient speed day in, day out is less efficient than ICE vehicles that are cold started, driven for 3 miles and then left to sit for hours on end before cold starting again? I personally don't like coal or even natural gas due to fracking but they are pretty much run at their most efficient speed always. Cars are not. The 75-90% conversion efficiency of the EV takes into consideration of all of the inputs, wells to wheels. All we have to do is keep cleaning up our ways of making electricity and conserving what we make.

My own experience with cleaning up my own wasteful household equipment and bad habits is that if I went house to house in my own neighborhood I could free up enough electricity for nearly all of my neighbor's local transportation with conservative upfitting of household equipment like water heaters, pool equipment, HVAC equipment and lighting and general habit awareness training. Nobody would go for it though since we are trained to be unaware of what we use due to energy being so ridiculously cheap here in the US. Did you get what I said in my previous post? I changed some pool equipment that saved enough electricity to fuel all of my local transportation needs. I'm not sure this means I'm driving for free or not but it sure is cheaper than it was. It probably only means that I was being incredibly wasteful. My HVAC equipment is due for replacement soon and I'll bet that when I switch from my current 12 SEER machine to 19 SEER that I will again free up enough electricity to power our local driving. There's so much to be gained with a little awareness.

As for infrastructure, the fuelling infrastructure for electric cars is already here. Electricity is ubiquitous and you don't have to have an environmental study or a million dollars to put in a charging station.

As for noise equating with driving enjoyment I just don't get that anymore. I'm 47 and tired of noise. Sick of it, really. I do like my music and I get to hear more of it since there is less ambient noise. The relative low noise and factory upgraded stereo in my 2010 Golf TDI was my favorite thing about that car, believe it or not. I was an avid autocrosser in my younger days and I did well at it. I am still very competitive but nowadays when the day is done I want to travel in relative peace. Makes dealing with the idiots on the road a lot easier.

I want to finish by saying again how cheap it is to drive on electricity. I pay less than $20 a month for two drivers to drive two cars everywhere we want to go. Granted, we live "inside the loop" here in San Antonio which was no accident and everything is close by so we don't drive a lot compared to the average American. Low running cost is the same appeal as what brought me into the TDI world. Driving for almost free. When I built my TDI Corrado 14 years ago diesel fuel was $1.32 a gallon or about 3 cents per mile which is what I pay for driving electric now. In real terms it is cheaper to drive now than it was then.
 
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kjclow

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Charlotte, NC
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
While I agree that there is a lot to do to get renewables as the main source of our electricity, our mix is improving year by year. Utility scale solar is now on par cost-wise with coal and so it is just a matter of time before coal gets pushed out of the mainstream. And I also agree that natural gas and nuclear have their drawbacks. There are even negatives about hydro and wind if you want to drill down. But to say that EV's are not viable unless we are all renewable is not really the case. It might be a hundred years before we are purely making electricity without burning fossil fuels.
While I agree that moving to renewable energy resources is a good one, I disagree that even in 100 years that we will be free of the current energy sources. There are many places that do not get enough sun to make solar viable. These same places would also not work well for hydro thermal heating. In the Charlotte area we have two nuclear plants, two coal plants, and two hydro plants. Maybe it's three hydro plants. There are times when all three sources are cranking as much power as they safely can. We would need mirrors that would cover about half the state to replace all of those sources. Yes, I've done the math. Or at least I did based on three year old technology. To meet the needs of our friends to the north, you would need a mirror farm roughly the size of Manitoba.
 

Dieselgeek

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Golden, CO
TDI
2016 Golf TDI
Your logic is spot on kjklow and you might be proven correct but look how have things changed in the last 100 years or even in the last 30 years. We probably wouldn't recognize the world in 100 years if we were able to live that long. I say it can be done. Look at what Germany makes in solar being at an Alaskan latitude. Call me an optimist.
 
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Dieselgeek

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Location
Golden, CO
TDI
2016 Golf TDI
Supaflygti,

I have read in several places that IF an EV is powered by ONLY coal generated electricity then it has the CO2 output of a Prius but it still converts more energy into motive force. Areas served by predominantly coal are very rare and are generally right in the middle of the US like Kansas, Nebraska, etc.
 

Supaflygti

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Location
Md
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI
"So, are you saying that we should just give up on a transportation type that is clearly demonstrated to be more efficient than ICE just because it isn't 100% renewable?"

That's exactly what I'm saying. You also failed to address my point regarding energy conversion from coal produced electric. In areas of the U.S that are still primarily coal based, EV's actually become LESS efficient than the ICE. The efficiency of coal fired power plants is roughly 30%...

Again, the primary push for EV's has always been emissions control but with our current infrastructure in terms of energy production, we are in many scenarios simply exchanging where the emissions are being released which opens a whole new argument that I truly do not wish to get into. At the end of the day, I do believe EV's have their place as a niche vehicle in close knit communities but it's my opinion that there are far better options out there that will suit the majority of drivers and not just the environmentalist, Elon Musk fans, and global warming fanatics. My personal opinion is that EV's will never gain a majority market share. While I appreciate the friendly debate, I do not think that either of us will be convinced of the others viewpoint so with that being said, I'm heading to bed and look forward to burning some dead dinosaurs (allegedly) in my TDI tomorrow. ?
 
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