VW Tests Hybrid vs Diesel; Defers Hybrid

RED · Sep 7, 2004

September 03, 2004
VW Tests Hybrid vs Diesel; Defers Hybrid
The German auto magazine Auto Bild reports (German) on Volkswagen’s testing of a prototype hybrid Touran (a compact van, or MPV).

VW built a test hybrid [gasoline-electric; thanks Jamais!] Touran and compared it to the same model with a production diesel powerplant. The results: the diesel delivered better fuel economy: 5.0 liters of fuel/100km to the hybrid’s 6.1 liters/100km. The verdict: VW will not yet put hybrids into quantity production—not until they can improve the fuel economy and the cost. When VW hybrids do show up, they will probably do so first in the US.

“[Hybrids are] an interesting niche. No more, no less,” says Volkswagen developer Ekkehard Pott, who sees the future for hybrids “rather in the USA

link:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/diesel/index.html
and the original in German:
http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=6787&artikel_seite=1

TXdore · Sep 9, 2004

Wouldn't it make more sense to use a jetta or a golf or some other compact, rather than the toureg? Diesel will, IMO, will always beat out today's hybrids when it comes to 'heavy' vehicles.

greencow · Sep 9, 2004

Would've been nice to see a diesel against a diesel electric hybrid for the same model car. I'm sure a hybrid would do better, and then you could grade the cost/efficiency improvement of hybridization more directly.

DrStink · Sep 9, 2004

Wouldn't it make more sense to use a jetta or a golf or some other compact, rather than the toureg?

Touran:

NOT Touareg:

mdt · Sep 9, 2004

Man the Touran is a sweet platform! Will we ever see this model stateside? For us metric disabled Americans, the 5L/100 km fuel economy figure cited above equates to ~47 mpg. Not bad at all for an MPV!

-mt

blue909 · Sep 9, 2004

Would've been nice to see a diesel against a diesel electric hybrid for the same model car. I'm sure a hybrid would do better, and then you could grade the cost/efficiency improvement of hybridization more directly.

I agree absolutely with greencow... it would have been great to compare the plain gas and diesel Tourans with a DIESEL-electric hybrid... why they'd want to handicap the hybrid test by only comparing a gas hybrid to a diesel is beyond me.

I agree also that the Touran is a nice-looking vehicle for its class... I myself would like something bigger than my Golf (capacity wise) but don't want the Toureg due to it's exterior dimensions and relatively modest interior capacity (though I do like the Toureg interior, especially the dash). Once again, we Americans only get to sample a fraction of the interesting vehicles our Euorpean bretheren enjoy!

AutoDiesel · Sep 9, 2004

“[Hybrids are] an interesting niche. No more, no less,” says Volkswagen developer Ekkehard Pott, who sees the future for hybrids “rather in the USA

Proves again how stupid VW is when it comes to marketing.
Hybrids will be hardly a "niche" here in the U.S.

-Toyota is already selling more Prius's than all of the diesel models combined by VW.
-Lexus has received more than 9000 pre-orders for the new Lx400h.
-The Honda Civic hybrid is already sold out, admitedly because of low production numbers.

What do you think is going to happen when Honda starts selling the Accord Hybrid? Or when Toyota starts selling the Camry hybrid/ Highlander hybrid?

Again, VW is missing the boat and is being left behind in this market.
Nothing new.

NYTDI · Sep 9, 2004

Man the Touran is a sweet platform! Will we ever see this model stateside? For us metric disabled Americans, the 5L/100 km fuel economy figure cited above equates to ~47 mpg. Not bad at all for an MPV!

-mt

Same platform as the next generation Golf/Jetta due here in N. America in '05/'06. I'm pretty sure the Touran was the first car released in Europe based on the new "A5" platform.

If VW was smart we'd see it here but .....

VWYankee · Sep 9, 2004

Proves again how stupid VW is when it comes to marketing.
Hybrids will be hardly a "niche" here in the U.S.

-Toyota is already selling more Prius's than all of the diesel models combined by VW.
-Lexus has received more than 9000 pre-orders for the new Lx400h.
-The Honda Civic hybrid is already sold out, admitedly because of low production numbers.

I guess it depends on one's definition of "niche". I think Hybrids will be "niche" for quite some time. People don't buy them for their longevity, but rather "to have a hybrid". Not everyone, but many hybrid owners are in that group.

The TDI is in sort of a niche itself, but at least the majority of TDI owners buy them for how practical, low maintanence and long engine life.

People that buy the Accord, and Highlander/LX400 will be even more in the group of "I have a hybrid". It's still a niche in my opinion. ...and my opinion... is just that, an opinion.

Oberkanone · Sep 9, 2004

VW might be wise to bring the Touran to the Canadian and US markets. VW has no entry in the small or large van market planned until 2009! There are more than a few vans sold in North America, it could be an "interesting niche" for VW.

Tin Man · Sep 9, 2004

... why they'd want to handicap the hybrid test by only comparing a gas hybrid to a diesel is beyond me.

Very good question. From what I can gather, most in the USA feel diesels themselves are a niche, and a pretty small one at that. It would make sense that VW would look upon a diesel-electric hybrid as fitting into a smaller niche than the gasoline hybrids, which as we see are gaining in popularity.

I wonder how well a small diesel would compare to a small direct injection efficiency maximized gasoline engine as in a hybrid?

DickSilver · Sep 9, 2004

I don't have the test data to quote, but diesels are fantastically efficient when run at a fixed speed and into a constant load (charging batteries) so I see every reason to expect a diesel hybrid to outdo VW's test of a gasser hybrid. I think that the diesel hybrid would find ready acceptance here, just on the fuel consumption numbers that it could display.

blue909 · Sep 9, 2004

I don't have the test data to quote, but diesels are fantastically efficient when run at a fixed speed and into a constant load (charging batteries) so I see every reason to expect a diesel hybrid to outdo VW's test of a gasser hybrid. I think that the diesel hybrid would find ready acceptance here, just on the fuel consumption numbers that it could display.

Of course I would agree that a D/E hybrid would probably be considerably more efficient/effective than a similar G/E hybrid, but not specifically because of the diesel being especially efficient within a specific range (which is true of course). After all, a D/E hybrid would most likely be a diesel equivalent of a mild (Civic) or full (Prius) hybrid approach, and while the combustion engine would be better (because it's a diesel and not a gasser) it still wouldn't be used strictly as a generator (as in a D/E locomotive) ...due to the application it would almost certainly have to provide direct mechanical force like a regular car, and thus depart from its 'ideal' range as our TDIs must do constantly.

However, given how much more mpg is gotten from a TDI Golf than a gas Golf... assuming that the implementation of a hybrid drivetrain was used on both, it seems reasonable to assume (w/o more info) that the resulting D/E hybrid might enjoy a similarly desirable advantage compared to the G/E hybrid Golf. Certainly the D/E hybrid could be impressive... after all, manual shift plain-TDIs NOW get mpg very close to (and in some specific scenarios, even better than) current hybrids in some kind of real-world uses... so, if you were to improve upon TDIs with hybrid technology it seems as if the result would be potentially excellent.

This is not to say that I don't find the idea of a D/E hybrid that DOES run like a locomotive appealing... I most certainly DO!

If batteries were cheaper/lighter/more efficient, or ultracapacitors/supercapacitors more practical for wide-use applications, the idea of a vehicle that had a small (maybe just 2 or 3 cylinder) diesel engine that really just ran at a constant speed ideal for efficiency (only when needed to add charge to the reserve of stored electricity) to provide electric power to move the car sounds good to me. Fuel the generator on biofuel and I like it even beter! Manage to make the car fun to drive and moderately decent looking and I'm reaching for my checkbook and bringing pals to dealerships for test drives on a weekly basis!

Of course, I'm sure that this isn't likely to happen in any real-world sense anytime soon.

PS: I know nothing about the Touran (other than the fact that I can't buy one). I've seen an A5 Golf driving around Hollywood (a mfgr. test car I assume) and it looks pretty nice, but doesn't seem much bigger inside (in back) than my A4 Golf. The Touran however, with what looks like a higher roof, seems like it would accomodate a significantly larger load w/the rear seats down/removed.

I'm just curious, does anyone know if there's a semi-sporty version of a TDI Touran (like a TDI-powered GTI equivalent) available in Europe? Not necessarily a neck-snapping, G-force pulling bona fide sports machine, but rather a practical hauler that also provides a driving experience that an enthusiast might appreciate (like a base gas GTI or something). Just curious....

Macduff · Sep 9, 2004

I'm just curious, does anyone know if there's a semi-sporty version of a TDI Touran (like a TDI-powered GTI equivalent) available in Europe? Not necessarily a neck-snapping, G-force pulling bona fide sports machine, but rather a practical hauler that also provides a driving experience that an enthusiast might appreciate (like a base gas GTI or something). Just curious....

Take your pick here

or have a look here for whats available in Germany.

kyote321 · Sep 10, 2004

ditto on vw being stupid. it is amazing that they can get anything sold at all.

Tin Man · Sep 10, 2004

When looking for a diesel generator, at least in my experience with motor homes, I found them to be very expensive, heavy, and seemingly impractical for use in a light automobile. There must be some design advantages to gassers due to the high compression and perhaps balancing forces that make diesels different.

Perhaps adding the weight and complexity of a hybrid drivetrain is unnecessary and not cost effective in a light vehicle since the diesel, once properly designed, has enough power and fuel savings without the hybrid part. Perhaps diesel hybrid technology will become more appropriate for heavier luxury vehicles as in the planned Mercedes S class diesel hybrid.

DC-TDIWagon · Sep 10, 2004

-The Honda Civic hybrid is already sold out, admitedly because of low production numbers.

What do you mean by sold out? Fully allocated to stealers or none available to buy? There was an article in the washington post recently about how there were plenty of Civic hybrids around here for sale with incentives, but not a single Prius. They seemed to attribute the difference in demand based on the appearance of the cars. The Prius lets you display to the world how environmentally conscious you are while the civic hybrid prevents this show because it looks like other civics. Demand for both would be much lower around here were it not for the underserved HOV exemption.

blue909 · Sep 10, 2004

Thanks for the Touran links. Even here in hybrid-crazy LA I do see Civic Hybrids available on lots (I drove one... it seemed fine as basic transportation, but I actually prefer the new Prius to it by a large margin and not because of how it looks). Even w/LA traffic, I don't think the fact that hybrids can drive in the carpool lane actually contributes all that much in reality to folks buying them...

The new Prius actually drives pretty nicely... it's not a motoring enthusiast's vehicle, but it is quite peppy (probably about as fast feeling 0-60 as my '00 stock TDI auto) and it's pretty nimble too although I'm sure it's no skid-pad demon with those skinny tires.

It IS pretty roomy in back with the seats down, it does get good mpg provided that you're not just doing short hops with a cold engine every single time (which really hurts mpg in the Prius) and while I'm not crazy about the exterior appearance, the interior has a certain George Jetson charm to it. I think that these factors help sell them... also, they're not even that pricey if you avoid the $5K options kits.

DC-TDIWagon · Sep 10, 2004

Even w/LA traffic, I don't think the fact that hybrids can drive in the carpool lane actually contributes all that much in reality to folks buying them...

I wasn't aware California had passed a low allowing them in carpool lanes without the required number of passengers. Last I heard they were still discussing it. According to this california state website you still can't get an HOV exemption. This probably explains why people there don't buy them for the HOV exemption.

On the other hand, if you ever drive in VA you will see that a large percentage of the cars in the HOVs are hybrids. This really bothers the people that take the time to carpool. People get even more upset when they find out that the tailpipe emissions of hybrids aren't much better, if not worse, than a lot of other cars. Too bad not that many people are aware of this or maybe the law would be changed. Remember, we don't have CARB gas here and Honda sells a stripped down version of their hybrids here. This results in the dirtier emissions here versus the cleaner ratings in California.

TornadoRed · Sep 10, 2004

“[Hybrids are] an interesting niche. No more, no less,” says Volkswagen developer Ekkehard Pott, who sees the future for hybrids “rather in the USA

Click to expand...

Proves again how stupid VW is when it comes to marketing.
Hybrids will be hardly a "niche" here in the U.S.

-Toyota is already selling more Prius's than all of the diesel models combined by VW.

Toyota refuses to say whether they are making or losing money on the Prius. My guess is, they are losing money, but they figure if they can get the sales volume high enough, they will break even or maybe make a profit.

I suspect that all the cars that VW makes are priced to make a profit.

Hybrids are a niche, in that they are excellent "city" cars but are not really suitable for long-range highway driving. TDIs are not the greatest "city" cars, because they take so long to reach normal operating temperature. But they are great highway cars. I would not classify TDIs as "niche" vehicles -- unless you define their niche as "for those who drive 20k to 60k miles per year or more."

AutoDiesel · Sep 10, 2004

Toyota refuses to say whether they are making or losing money on the Prius.

They have?

Profitable Prius
Toyota Motor Corp. traditionally has viewed its gas-electric hybrid technology as a solid investment for the future, but officials say the '04 Prius will be profitable from the get-go .
“If we couldn't make a profit, we wouldn't be doing it,” says Ernest Bastien, corporate vehicle marketing manager, Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.
The auto maker claims the first-generation Prius, which launched in the U.S. in 2000, was at least breaking even after its first year on the market. If it hadn't been successful, Bastien says, there may have been no second-generation of the environmentally friendly car.

Toyota ended its' fiscal year the end of March with a operating profit of 14.68 billion.

Create market share and then make a profit.

Something VW has forgotten about a long time ago.

AutoDiesel · Sep 10, 2004

Hybrids are a niche, in that they are excellent "city" cars but are not really suitable for long-range highway driving. TDIs are not the greatest "city" cars, because they take so long to reach normal operating temperature. But they are great highway cars. I would not classify TDIs as "niche" vehicles -- unless you define their niche as "for those who drive 20k to 60k miles per year or more."

A niche is a specialized market.
TDi's will continue to meet that definition for a long time to come as their sales will at best peak around 50k vehicles. VW's manufacturing capabilities cannot support very much more without building a regional factory here in the U.S. and they have stated they will not do that.

Hybrid sales will continue to rise as virtually all of the major manufacturers have commited programs to start selling various new hybrids by '05 to '07.

Hybrids will hardly be a niche market if they are selling 4 to 5 hundred thousand hybrid cars in the next few years while VW TDi's will be still stuck in the low tens of thousands.

gredi · Sep 10, 2004

Perhaps the hybrids sell so well because they are the "in" thing to be driving right now. Kinda like hiking boots and Granola bars were the PC things to be eating way back when. Next year it may be some other marketing scheme that is crammed down our throats.

TornadoRed · Sep 10, 2004

...a solid investment for the future... the '04 Prius will be profitable from the get-go...
“If we couldn't make a profit, we wouldn't be doing it,”
The auto maker claims the first-generation Prius, which launched in the U.S. in 2000, was at least breaking even after its first year on the market.

I detect some hedging... not saying that the spokesman is lying, but he's mostly talking about what will happen (or may happen). And there are accounting techniques that let one say they are breaking even, by ignoring a lot of R&D costs.

Was that 14.68 billion dollars, or yen? Yen, I bet.. about $135 million dollars.

AutoDiesel · Sep 10, 2004

Was that 14.68 billion dollars, or yen? Yen, I bet.. about $135 million dollars.

Your cynicism is showing through.

Toyota Sees Record Financial Results

Toyota sees across-the-board records for the fiscal year that ended March 31.
Toyota Motor Corp. sees record profits for the fiscal year that ended March 31, thanks to cost-cutting efforts and a global rise in sales.
The auto maker beat estimates with an operating profit of ¥1.67 trillion ($14.68 billion), an increase of 31.1% over the prior fiscal year. Net revenues rose 11.6% year-on-year to ¥17.29 trillion ($151.6 billion), while net income climbed 54.8% to ¥1.16 trillion ($10.2 billion). All figures mark record highs.

$135 million is chump change for them.
They are already on the road to beating those figures in 2004.

As for VWAG.....
Volkswagen Reports 9 Percent Drop in 2Q Net Profit, Issues Profit Warning for Year

In its profit warning, Volkswagen cited lagging demand in important markets, high oil prices and the stronger euro as reasons for cutting its 2004 forecast for operating profit before special items to 1.9 billion euros ($2.4 billion) from 2.5 billion euros ($3.1 billion).

Sounds like VW is whining a bit to me.

blue909 · Sep 11, 2004

DC-TDIWagon: I was under the impression that there wasn't a separate CA version of the Prius and Civic hybrid... if the ones sold outside of the 5 states do produce worse exhaust it's news to me and I stand corrected. I was also under the impression that the right for hybrid drivers to use HOV lanes had been approved just recently (based on local news reports) but maybe I'm jumping the gun on that too. I do see LOTS of gen 1 and 2 Priuses here (of course it's harder to ID hybrid Civics unless you're close to them). I also see quite a few full-electrics and a fair number of TDIs too... you know how car-crazy SoCal is... every niche is well represented.

TornadoRed: Toyota has said (based on NPR reports) that it DID turn a profit on the gen 1 Prius before it ended production, and that it expects to be turning a profit on the new Prius within a year (thanks in part to demand necessitating significant increases in production according to this month's CR and also a couple articles in last weekend's LA Times Magazine. Honda on the other hand, admitted to losing money on the Insight on a per-car basis, and I don't know where they stand re: the hybrid Civic.

gredi: I agree of course that some part of the hybrid 'craze' currently in effect is simply motivated by marketing and PC forces... however if you put aside all that hype, I think that they do represent a viable transitional technology as cheap fuel cells and the infrastructure to support their use in cars is at least a couple decades off. I'm not so pro-TDI that it makes me fervently anti-hybrid... I find BOTH technologies to be interesting and appealing and practical for some users in some contexts. Truth be told, given my personal vehicular use (mostly urban short hops) a hybrid probably WOULD be the more 'sensible' choice for me... however, I have (and prefer) a TDI because it (and not any currently buyable hybrid) simply provides more motoring enjoyment.

AutoDiesel: yes, I too think that from a corporate profit/management/product/marketing standpoint VW would do well to take a few lessons from Toyota. I say this just from my own perspective as a consumer (w/o access to any close-up info re: the companies themselves) and as a guy who's owned 4 VWs and only 2 Toyotas in his life (and the last Toyota I owned was a couple decades ago). I like VW products, but I think Toyota does a better job of addressing customer needs and wants on a more consistent basis (while making a profit in the process).

daninacan · Sep 15, 2004

In the latests ASME Mechanical Engineering magazine there is a brief article about the EPA working with "a host of corporate partners" to develop a hydraulic hybrid SUV.

Try this link:
http://www.memagazine.org/contents/current/departments/news_notes/news_note.html

You may have to be a memeber to see the article.
The jist of it is that they've demonstrated use of a hydraulic hybrid system that stores energy (from braking)and can use this energy to propel the vehicle (in this case a Ford Expedition)in the next acceleration.

"While electric hybrids add a battery pack, electric generator/ motor, and power electronics, hydraulic hybrids add an accumulator (which stores energy as highly compressed nitrogen gas) and one or more hydraulic pump motors. In the EPA's full hydraulic hybrid technology, the conventional transmission, transfer case, and power steering have been removed and replaced with a hydraulic drivetrain; the EPA also replaced the conventional 5.4 liter V8 gasoline engine with a 1.9 liter Volkswagen four-cylinder diesel engine."

Yep, forget diesel electric hybrids. I want my diesel/hydraulic Golf! TDI-H?

The article says the Expedition achieved a 55% increase in fuel economy but that most SUV's and large pickups could expect a 30-40% increase. And, the extra bill for the addition of the hydraulic hybrid system - ~$600 for a large SUV.
Now if I could expect 30-40% increase on top of what I get with my TDI I would shell out an extra $600. That's about 70mpg!

je · Sep 15, 2004

Check out this news article in Mechanical Engineering, the American Society of Mechanical Engineers member publication. I didn't think it was newsworthy enough to be in the News section.

It is a hydraulic hybrid system that stores 'regenerated' braking energy in the pressure of hydraulic fluid to assist the internal combustion engine. Of course, it's in an SUV to start, an Excursion (a nice truck) no less. The interesting thing about it is that they replaced the HAYOOOGE 5.4L Ford V8 with a VW TDI.

Click here and scroll down to "Hybrids Go Hydraulic" about 2/3 down the page.

But if you're in a hurry here it is:

Hybrids Go Hydraulic
by Gayle Ehrenman

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and a host of corporate partners have demonstrated the first advanced hydraulic hybrid sport utility vehicle. The vehicle demonstrates that hydraulic hybrid technology has the potential to dramatically and cost-effectively improve the fuel economy of SUVs, and at the same time, improve their performance, according to the EPA.

"We are excited about the potential for hydraulic hybrids in consumer and commercial applications," said Margo Oge, director of the agency's Office of Transportation and Air Quality.

The hybrid uses a hydraulic energy storage and propulsion system in a stock SUV. The hydraulic system captures and stores a large fraction of the energy normally wasted in vehicle braking and uses this energy to help propel the vehicle during its next acceleration.

The demonstration vehicle used what the EPA calls "full hydraulic hybrid" technology integrated into a stock 2003 four-wheel-drive Ford Expedition.

While electric hybrids add a battery pack, electric generator/ motor, and power electronics, hydraulic hybrids add an accumulator (which stores energy as highly compressed nitrogen gas) and one or more hydraulic pump motors. In the EPA's full hydraulic hybrid technology, the conventional transmission, transfer case, and power steering have been removed and replaced with a hydraulic drivetrain; the EPA also replaced the conventional 5.4 liter V8 gasoline engine with a 1.9 liter Volkswagen four-cylinder diesel engine.

Hydraulic hybrids draw from two sources of power to operate the vehicle—the engine and the hydraulic components. The EPA's system uses two hydraulic accumulator vessels and two hydraulic pump motor units.

Both pump motors are attached to the front axle. One pump motor, which switches between pumping and driving modes, is used to pre- charge the hydraulic accumulators. During braking, the other pump motor helps to recover braking energy that otherwise would be lost. The two pump motors work together to pressurize one accumulator to 5,000 psi, the other to 200 psi.

According to an EPA report, hydraulic drivetrains are particularly well-suited to vehicles that are used for a lot of stop-and-go driving, such as urban delivery trucks or school buses because the system captures a large percentage of the energy normally lost in braking.

A large SUV or pickup truck equipped with a full hydraulic drive is projected to achieve a 30 to 40 percent improvement in fuel economy for combined city/highway driving, lower emissions, and better acceleration.

The hydraulic hybrid Expedition was reported to have achieved a 55 percent improvement in fuel economy. The EPA predicts that the addition of the hydraulic hybrid technology will add roughly $600 to the cost of a large SUV. The agency said that the additional cost would be quickly recouped by the consumer's lower fuel and maintenance costs.

Over the past decade, the EPA has collaborated with a host of organizations to develop the hydraulic hybrid technology. These partners include the U.S. Army, Ford Motor Co., Eaton Corp., Parker-Hannifin Corp., FEV Engine Technology Inc., Michigan State University, Ricardo Inc., Southwest Research Institute, and the University of Wisconsin.

You know, it reminds me of the 'hybrid' vehicle that a group of high-school students designed and built used in the film "Paradigm Shift" by Joel Barker - a 2-seat experiment powered by a lawn tractor engine with a big water reservoir in the back to use gravity in assisting acceleration and braking.

TDIMeister · Sep 15, 2004

You would find it interesting to discover the powertrain design firm that is working on this...

Kiwi_ME · Sep 15, 2004

The hydraulic-based transmission and power buffering system is probably more cost-effective at the higher power levels required for an Expedition than the electrical system found in the Prius, although I doubt it's more efficient. As we all know these (hydraulic) components have been around for decades and are not too expensive.

However Toyota has done them one better with the use of the planetary gearset, what they call a "power split device" probably so they can patent it. By using a second, smaller motor/generator to provide "control" input to the sun gear, an electro-mechanical CVT is effected between the engine and wheels.

As you expect this CVT passes some power to and from the battery only in the numerous types of transient conditions. The remainder of the time some power passes *between* the smaller and larger motor/generators (via power electronics) to set the gear ratio between engine and wheels.

As a result the losses incurred in the electromechanical sub-system are limited to only that power "difference" running in a loop around the planetary gears.

In steady-state cruise conditions almost all the power moves directly from the engine to the wheels thru the simple low-loss (planetary and final drive) gear train.

Depending on the load, at somewhere around 60 mph the "sun" gear is mostly stationary. All the engine's power is used to propel the vehicle with minimal powertrain losses. The electric subsystem is ready, but basically just going along for the ride.

Other than Ford (the Escape Hybrid,) I know of no one else who has adopted this principle.

VW Tests Hybrid vs Diesel; Defers Hybrid

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