So looking forward to diesel and veggie oil

mrchaotica

Veteran Member
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Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
1998 New Beetle
I understand using biodiesel, and I understand using WVO (at least in engines other than VW TDIs -- I'll have to take your word that the Merc engine is a good candidate), but it makes absolutely no sense to me why you'd want to bother with both at the same time. If you're already going to make biodiesel anyway (for the Passat), running it in the Sprinter too is better than using WVO in every possible way. Especially since there's no way you'll recoup the $1600 kit just in free oil during road trips!
 

kcfoxie

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Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
mackconsult said:
What??????

The sprinter van has a 5 cylinder Mercedes, the same motor used in all the big Mercedes vehicles. Frybrid has done 4 conversions on sprinter vans and 100's on Mercedes vehicles and these are some of the best motors that can consume veggie oil. The rig you saw probably wasn't preheating his oil during the running of the engine. When you do this you create very high "loads" on the pumps and injectors.

This is why I am putting pressure gauges and temperature gauges in my veggie lines so that I can constantly monitor those things. The Frybrid kit is known for being one of the most robust systems out there.

BTW..... It just so happens that the oil I am getting right know is known as some of the best oil around for maintaining low viscocity at low temperatures. Who knows what this guy was using when he blew his engine up .....

Thanks for the welcome .....
The oil he used is pure soy oil, from a chinese restaurant that uses the oil for a single cycle and cans it. The stuff is clearer looking than most of the WVO my biodiesel processor uses, I took 3 month old "rancid, unusable in my engine" oil to them and got 50 cents per gallon trade because it was "extremly good quality oil with a low titration" ..... so he's using good oil, also using a frybird system [i believe] installed by a local installer.

he's not the first. If you truly wish to proceed, by all means go ahead. When, not if, you finally have a catastrophic breakdown in the Mercedes and you shell a few grand out. Perhaps that is offset by the savings in money (certainly NOT time, you will be dropping 15 hours a week on your oil filtering unless you throw a lot of money into a prebuilt system).

I've yet to see a WVO vehicle that was successful in going 250,000 to 400,000 miles without major repair to the fuel system or the cyls themselves.

Like validius said, it won't matter how much evidence I throw at you... until you've wasted a lot of money you won't get it. If your like my coworker, who has a note on that 2002 which was recommended by the grease installer as the best year for a WVO setup, after two $900 fuel pumps, a set of injectors, and various other fuel system repairs by a professional shop -- oh and his $2500 extended warranty was voided when they saw the extra lines under the hood, you'll still do it just like he does.

I really would like to live in your reality. It sounds much nicer than the real world. For the heck of it, this thread might be of interest. The post that I really wanted to center on, is the long time poster stating the CDI is anything but a good candidate for a WVO system.... http://www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&func=view&id=6822&catid=9
 
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mrchaotica

Veteran Member
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Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
1998 New Beetle
kcfoxie said:
I've yet to see a WVO vehicle that was successful in going 250,000 to 400,000 miles without major repair to the fuel system or the cyls themselves.
Not even the stereotypical '80s Mercedes?
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
I've not seen one; but even if it exists... the Sprinter was not available in the 80s... thus no motor in the sprinter is going to be capable.
 

mackconsult

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Vancouver, WA, USA
TDI
95 TDI Passat Wagon
mrchaotica said:
I understand using biodiesel, and I understand using WVO (at least in engines other than VW TDIs -- I'll have to take your word that the Merc engine is a good candidate), but it makes absolutely no sense to me why you'd want to bother with both at the same time. If you're already going to make biodiesel anyway (for the Passat), running it in the Sprinter too is better than using WVO in every possible way. Especially since there's no way you'll recoup the $1600 kit just in free oil during road trips!
I look at it this way.

1) I need to have my own supply of veggie oil and confidence that I am cleaning and dewatering it properly before making BioDiesel.

2) The veggie oil makes sense for long wrong trips. I have a 36 gallon veggie tank, and a 25 gallon diesel tank. If both of them were diesel I would have to make "that much more" Bio.

3) I am limiting my Bio production to about 50 gallons every two weeks to supply the two 25 gallon diesel tanks I have in my two vehicles. For the big ass road trips I am going to do for camping, fishing, and sailing I don't want to have to make 100's of gallons of Bio. I would rather just used cleaned oil because I have large capacity for processing oil.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
validius said:
It doesnt matter how many yahoos or 'educated' people endorse WVO, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics and indeed all of physics will never change itself so that VO is a good idea.

Ive said it before and i'l say it again. Talking logic to a VOer is like trying to talk to a irrationally religious old man. Any evidence against his belief is of the devil... that, rock and roll and enjoying sex. The belief defines logic, logic does not define the belief.
For the record, I do not and have never endorsed (X)VO use in directly-injected diesel engines. I'm neutral on (X)VO in IDI engines though--tons of anecdotal evidence says they do fair enough; just in case your post was aimed at me.
 

mackconsult

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Location
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kcfoxie said:
The oil he used is pure soy oil, from a chinese restaurant that uses the oil for a single cycle and cans it. The stuff is clearer looking than most of the WVO my biodiesel processor uses, I took 3 month old "rancid, unusable in my engine" oil to them and got 50 cents per gallon trade because it was "extremly good quality oil with a low titration" ..... so he's using good oil, also using a frybird system [i believe] installed by a local installer.

he's not the first. If you truly wish to proceed, by all means go ahead. When, not if, you finally have a catastrophic breakdown in the Mercedes and you shell a few grand out. Perhaps that is offset by the savings in money (certainly NOT time, you will be dropping 15 hours a week on your oil filtering unless you throw a lot of money into a prebuilt system).

I've yet to see a WVO vehicle that was successful in going 250,000 to 400,000 miles without major repair to the fuel system or the cyls themselves.

Like validius said, it won't matter how much evidence I throw at you... until you've wasted a lot of money you won't get it. If your like my coworker, who has a note on that 2002 which was recommended by the grease installer as the best year for a WVO setup, after two $900 fuel pumps, a set of injectors, and various other fuel system repairs by a professional shop -- oh and his $2500 extended warranty was voided when they saw the extra lines under the hood, you'll still do it just like he does.

I really would like to live in your reality. It sounds much nicer than the real world. For the heck of it, this thread might be of interest. The post that I really wanted to center on, is the long time poster stating the CDI is anything but a good candidate for a WVO system.... http://www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&func=view&id=6822&catid=9
There is more to it than how many miles, burning veggie is good for the environment.

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12604&highlight=how+many+miles

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13703
 

kcfoxie

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Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
So is biodiesel; except you don't kill the engine in 1/3 to 1/2 it's life expectency.

I mean come on now, I went to the wall with drivebiwire and others who said B100 in a 2006 Pd would kill it by 60k miles. 23k miles beyond their predictions I am still humming along.

I'd like to see you prove me wrong but I'm afraid that the CDI just won't cooperate with you; if you find a way to make it work, that's cool. Cold flow properties are the largest reason I'd never do grease, and you live in Alaska is that right? I mean, I guess you are used to plugging your diesel in, we're not (even tho the Jeep came with the heater from the factory).

I drive 70 miles twice a month to purchase around 80 gallons of B100.... I do my part. I can't afford to experiment (nor do I have the time or space required). If it's a project, have fun, but be prepared for it to not go according to plan. I also help employ 12 people in a facility making I believe between 5,000 and 10,000 gallons a day of biodiesel, which is fostering my state economy.
 
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validius

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Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan
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1997 GTI TDI
nicklockard said:
For the record, I do not and have never endorsed (X)VO use in directly-injected diesel engines. I'm neutral on (X)VO in IDI engines though--tons of anecdotal evidence says they do fair enough; just in case your post was aimed at me.
it was aimed at every WVOer who made every BS excuse in the book to justify their ludicrous practice in spite of physics and experiences of others telling them they are wrong.
 
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validius

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Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan
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1997 GTI TDI
mackconsult said:
wrong, burning veggie is less bad for the environment then burning dino. This holds true in the short term, im not sure what it ends up being after you take into account the extra manufacturing to produce all the extra parts purchased by those who use VO because of the VO use.

Please see above post on the religious aspects of VO use. All bow to the environment!
 

UFO

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mackconsult said:
Hey mack, I would take that first Frybrid thread with a grain of salt. I've read about some of those people's experiences with VO on frybrid's site, and they are not talking about the issues they've had with VO. I specifically remember the user New2VOfuels having lots of injector issues with his truck...
 

mackconsult

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Location
Vancouver, WA, USA
TDI
95 TDI Passat Wagon
Geese ..... can we kill this thread yet?

Alaska?????? Try just north of Portland, OR. Temperatures are moderate here.

This only reason veggie will kill a motor is if there is to much water in it, or you don't change the motor oil often enough. Injection systems could be damaged if viscosity is not low enough, but my oil will always be heated and I am using oil that other greasers have said doesn't congeal till -5 deg C. Also I am putting a temperature and pressure gauges on the incoming veggie line at the injectors.

I am planning on a cold filter setup, and doing a centrifuge filter. Every batch of oil that goes into my sprinter will have to pass the "crackle" test first, ensuring no water content.

My sprinter has a block heater and the veggie will only be used on long road trips were the engine has come to temperature for burning veggie oil.

Yeah I am taking a risk, leave it at that people. Before I ever bought this sprinter I investigated how to work on it, including changing out injectors, pump, even motor. I did the same for the TDI I just bought by the way.

I have a garage full of tools and the capability of fixing my own stuff. The only thing I don't do at home is tire & oil changes.
 

mrchaotica

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Location
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mackconsult said:
I look at it this way.

1) I need to have my own supply of veggie oil and confidence that I am cleaning and dewatering it properly before making BioDiesel.

2) The veggie oil makes sense for long wrong trips. I have a 36 gallon veggie tank, and a 25 gallon diesel tank. If both of them were diesel I would have to make "that much more" Bio.

3) I am limiting my Bio production to about 50 gallons every two weeks to supply the two 25 gallon diesel tanks I have in my two vehicles. For the big ass road trips I am going to do for camping, fishing, and sailing I don't want to have to make 100's of gallons of Bio. I would rather just used cleaned oil because I have large capacity for processing oil.
I think you're vastly overestimating the marginal effort to make extra biodiesel for the van. I mean, you're going to be making it anyway for the Passat -- once you've already made the investment in the equipment, I don't see where making a larger amount is a big deal. Heck, if you plan for it now you can just buy a larger-capacity biodiesel processor to begin with so that you can make the same number of larger batches (as opposed to larger numbers of same-size batches) that you would have anyway, and reduce your marginal effort to near zero.

I also think you're vastly underestimating the marginal effort, in terms of maintenance and repairs, that running WVO will incur. It only barely makes sense to begin with -- even setting aside the folly of running it in a modern direct-injection engine -- when the only alternative is dino-diesel; if you've got biodiesel available too then running WVO instead is just, frankly, stupid.

Furthermore, I don't think you have a firm grasp on the economics of your plan. For both biodiesel and WVO, you have two categories of expenses: the initial cost of the equipment (biodiesel processor or WVO conversion kit, respectively) and the ongoing costs of the materials (the oil itself for both, plus methanol and lye for biodiesel). First of all, the amounts of methanol and lye needed are small in proportion to the oil, so the differences in material costs between biodiesel and WVO are not significant. (No, not even if you get your WVO for "free" -- you still have to pick it up, after all!) Second -- and more importantly -- those recurring costs are dwarfed by the initial equipment costs (especially if you get your WVO for free). Even if you assumed that the cost for the WVO conversion kit (plus installation) and biodiesel processor were equal, by choosing to do both instead of only one or the other you immediately cut your return on investment in HALF! Why would you want to do that? It makes no sense! And if, as I suspect, a biodiesel processor is actually cheaper than a WVO kit, the choice to do WVO in addition only gets worse from there.

And finally, on the issue of "confidence:" To run WVO you need to not only have confidence in your filtering and de-watering ability, but also in your engine's ability to run WVO without gunking up and destroying itself. Or alternatively, you could choose to have confidence in your titrating ability (for biodiesel) instead -- which, IMO, is much easier to be confident about.
 
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mackconsult

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mrchaotica said:
I think you're vastly overestimating the marginal effort to make extra biodiesel for the van. I mean, you're going to be making it anyway for the Passat -- once you've already made the investment in the equipment, I don't see where making a larger amount is a big deal. Heck, if you plan for it now you can just buy a larger-capacity biodiesel processor to begin with so that you can make the same number of larger batches (as opposed to larger numbers of same-size batches) that you would have anyway, and reduce your marginal effort to near zero.

I also think you're vastly underestimating the marginal effort, in terms of maintenance and repairs, that running WVO will incur. It only barely makes sense to begin with -- even setting aside the folly of running it in a modern direct-injection engine -- when the only alternative is dino-diesel; if you've got biodiesel available too then running WVO instead is just, frankly, stupid.

Furthermore, I don't think you have a firm grasp on the economics of your plan. For both biodiesel and WVO, you have two categories of expenses: the initial cost of the equipment (biodiesel processor or WVO conversion kit, respectively) and the ongoing costs of the materials (the oil itself for both, plus methanol and lye for biodiesel). First of all, the amounts of methanol and lye needed are small in proportion to the oil, so the differences in material costs between biodiesel and WVO are not significant. (No, not even if you get your WVO for "free" -- you still have to pick it up, after all!) Second -- and more importantly -- those recurring costs are dwarfed by the initial equipment costs (especially if you get your WVO for free). Even if you assumed that the cost for the WVO conversion kit (plus installation) and biodiesel processor were equal, by choosing to do both instead of only one or the other you immediately cut your return on investment in HALF! Why would you want to do that? It makes no sense! And if, as I suspect, a biodiesel processor is actually cheaper than a WVO kit, the choice to do WVO in addition only gets worse from there.

And finally, on the issue of "confidence:" To run WVO you need to not only have confidence in your filtering and de-watering ability, but also in your engine's ability to run WVO without gunking up and destroying itself. Or alternatively, you could choose to have confidence in your titrating ability (for biodiesel) instead -- which, IMO, is much easier to be confident about.
The waste veggie oil I get is .5 miles away from my work, or 2 miles away from my house. I only pick up once every two weeks.

Frybrid kit already paid for, So I don't know why you guys keep trying to convince me to just do bio. My setup is going to mostly produce cleaned WVO.

You have to realize that I drive an XR600R motorcycle to work every day. We hardly ever drive our cars. Its the weekend road trips that were killing us last summer.
 
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mackconsult

Veteran Member
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Location
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mrchaotica said:
I think you're vastly overestimating the marginal effort to make extra biodiesel for the van. I mean, you're going to be making it anyway for the Passat -- once you've already made the investment in the equipment, I don't see where making a larger amount is a big deal. Heck, if you plan for it now you can just buy a larger-capacity biodiesel processor to begin with so that you can make the same number of larger batches (as opposed to larger numbers of same-size batches) that you would have anyway, and reduce your marginal effort to near zero.

I also think you're vastly underestimating the marginal effort, in terms of maintenance and repairs, that running WVO will incur. It only barely makes sense to begin with -- even setting aside the folly of running it in a modern direct-injection engine -- when the only alternative is dino-diesel; if you've got biodiesel available too then running WVO instead is just, frankly, stupid.

Furthermore, I don't think you have a firm grasp on the economics of your plan. For both biodiesel and WVO, you have two categories of expenses: the initial cost of the equipment (biodiesel processor or WVO conversion kit, respectively) and the ongoing costs of the materials (the oil itself for both, plus methanol and lye for biodiesel). First of all, the amounts of methanol and lye needed are small in proportion to the oil, so the differences in material costs between biodiesel and WVO are not significant. (No, not even if you get your WVO for "free" -- you still have to pick it up, after all!) Second -- and more importantly -- those recurring costs are dwarfed by the initial equipment costs (especially if you get your WVO for free). Even if you assumed that the cost for the WVO conversion kit (plus installation) and biodiesel processor were equal, by choosing to do both instead of only one or the other you immediately cut your return on investment in HALF! Why would you want to do that? It makes no sense! And if, as I suspect, a biodiesel processor is actually cheaper than a WVO kit, the choice to do WVO in addition only gets worse from there.

And finally, on the issue of "confidence:" To run WVO you need to not only have confidence in your filtering and de-watering ability, but also in your engine's ability to run WVO without gunking up and destroying itself. Or alternatively, you could choose to have confidence in your titrating ability (for biodiesel) instead -- which, IMO, is much easier to be confident about.
BTW ... were would I get my clean oil from to make biodiesel if I didn't have a WVO filtering capability?
 

UFO

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mackconsult said:
BTW ... were would I get my clean oil from to make biodiesel if I didn't have a WVO filtering capability?
You don't need "clean" oil to make biodiesel. Just pour it through a screen and it's ready to load into the processor.

I have no ability to filter WVO, and yet I make 130 gallons of bio at a time with a processor that costs less than a decent WVO kit. Filtering/settling/dewatering WVO is a slow process that uses none of the equipment needed for biodiesel save 55 gallon barrels. Well, dewatering using the heat/settle process can be done in a hot water heater, but ideally you'd want a cone bottom for that.

Sorry, I know you want the thread to go away, but there seem to be some misconceptions and I can't resist trying to clear them up.
 

mackconsult

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No worries .... I am here to learn ...... just seems like there is a lot of negativity towards veggie oil. I have already made the investment into veggie oil cleaning and the Frybrid kit, so I am going to continue down this path.

Maybe some point in the future I will find that Bio is the way to go then I can uninstall my Frybrid kit and probably sell it for %50 of what I bought it for. But I probably won't do that because adding the second tank is a real benefit for road trips. One of the benefits is that veggie oil is not considered a "fuel", so its no big deal to carry it in containers in your vehicle.
 

mrchaotica

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mackconsult said:
Frybrid kit already paid for, So I don't know why you guys keep trying to convince me to just do bio.
Because you said in your first post (only three days ago) "[My] van gets its Frybrid veggie kit next week." That means you still have the opportunity to return it!
mackconsult said:
just seems like there is a lot of negativity towards veggie oil.
My negativity is mostly towards unnecessarily trying to do both WVO and biodiesel at the same time. I'd be happiest if you picked biodiesel -- and I think, in the long run, you'd be happiest if you did that too -- but if you really want WVO then you should do that and ditch the biodiesel instead.

However, I do think you're underestimating the risk of running WVO in a high-tech engine like the one in the Sprinter. I'd feel a lot better if you decided to replace it with a more suitable indirect-injected diesel -- maybe an old Ford Econoline or Chevy Suburban or something.
mackconsult said:
You have to realize that I drive an XR600R motorcycle to work every day. We hardly ever drive our cars. Its the weekend road trips that were killing us last summer.
mackconsult said:
[A]dding the second tank is a real benefit for road trips. One of the benefits is that veggie oil is not considered a "fuel", so its no big deal to carry it in containers in your vehicle.
Okay, so now I understand why you're bent on WVO -- but that just means I no longer understand other aspects of your situation. I get that the van is for trips, but if you hardly ever drive your cars then what's the Passat for? With so little driving other than trips, why bother making your own biodiesel?

By the way, why does WVO not being a "fuel" matter? Weren't you planning on installing a proper auxiliary fuel tank (which would make it equally "no big deal" to carry biodiesel) for it anyway?

So, my modified advice is now to do one of the following:
  • Ditch the WVO and run only biodiesel in both the Sprinter and Passat
or,
  • Ditch the Sprinter and put your WVO kit in an IDI van or SUV. Buy dino- or biodiesel for that vehicle and the Passat; you won't use enough to be worth the trouble of making it yourself. (Or also ditch the Passat, replace it with an old Mercedes, and get a WVO kit for it too.)
Edit: third option:
  • Continue with your plans as-is, but find out how much it would cost to replace the engine in the Sprinter and put that much money in a savings account. You might very well need it eventually.
 
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mackconsult

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mrchaotica said:
Because you said in your first post (only three days ago) "[My] van gets its Frybrid veggie kit next week." That means you still have the opportunity to return it!

And loose 25% of my $$$ for restocking fee ....

My negativity is mostly towards unnecessarily trying to do both WVO and biodiesel at the same time. I'd be happiest if you picked biodiesel -- and I think, in the long run, you'd be happiest if you did that too -- but if you really want WVO then you should do that and ditch the biodiesel instead.

However, I do think you're underestimating the risk of running WVO in a high-tech engine like the one in the Sprinter. I'd feel a lot better if you decided to replace it with a more suitable indirect-injected diesel -- maybe an old Ford Econoline or Chevy Suburban or something.
Okay, so now I understand why you're bent on WVO -- but that just means I no longer understand other aspects of your situation. I get that the van is for trips, but if you hardly ever drive your cars then what's the Passat for?

Wife does not like the van ...... part of the deal on selling the Taurus wagon is I had to get her another wagon. Not only this when I am off doing regattas in the van there has to be another vehicle for her and the kids.

With so little driving other than trips, why bother making your own biodiesel?

Because I want to ....

By the way, why does WVO not being a "fuel" matter? Weren't you planning on installing a proper auxiliary fuel tank (which would make it equally "no big deal" to carry biodiesel) for it anyway?

No .... To carry extra BioDiesel has to be done in proper fuel containers. Not only this but implementing a second diesel tank would have to be done outside/underneath the vehicle. My veggie tank sits inside the vehicle and is plastic and very easy to install.

So, my modified advice is now to do one of the following:
  • Ditch the WVO and run only biodiesel in both the Sprinter and Passat
or,
  • Ditch the Sprinter and put your WVO kit in an IDI van or SUV. Buy dino- or biodiesel for that vehicle and the Passat; you won't use enough to be worth the trouble of making it yourself. (Or also ditch the Passat, replace it with an old Mercedes, and get a WVO kit for it too.)
Thanks for the advice ...... No way am I ditching the sprinter. It's the best truck I have ever owned and gets 25 MPG around town, and 30 on the highway.
 

VeeDubTDI

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mackconsult said:
What??????

The sprinter van has a 5 cylinder Mercedes, the same motor used in all the big Mercedes vehicles. Frybrid has done 4 conversions on sprinter vans and 100's on Mercedes vehicles and these are some of the best motors that can consume veggie oil. The rig you saw probably wasn't preheating his oil during the running of the engine. When you do this you create very high "loads" on the pumps and injectors.
The 100's of Mercedes vehicles that you mention are mostly the older indirect injection engines from the 1980s. They tolerate WVO much better than the new direct injection engines that are found in vehicles like your van.

Good luck. :eek:
 

VeeDubTDI

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mackconsult said:
No worries .... I am here to learn ...... just seems like there is a lot of negativity towards veggie oil. I have already made the investment into veggie oil cleaning and the Frybrid kit, so I am going to continue down this path.
There is a lot of negativity towards veggie oil here because veggie oil has blown up a lot of cars. Few have managed to put a lot of miles on their engines before catastrophic failure rears its ugly head.
 

mackconsult

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VeeDubTDI said:
The 100's of Mercedes vehicles that you mention are mostly the older indirect injection engines from the 1980s. They tolerate WVO much better than the new direct injection engines that are found in vehicles like your van.

Good luck. :eek:
Yeah we are talking about common rail direct injection right? So most of the diesels know adays have this technology and the Frybrid kits work on them.

I am a mechanical engineer who currently works on diesel emission reduction for the 2010 audi Q7's. Not only this but I implemented the cummins 6 cyl into hyster forklifts, and worked on commercial fishing boats with big diesels.

I know the risk, I know the technologies, and I believe that I know how to make it work.
 

mackconsult

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Tell you what ..... a year down the road I will still have my TDI and be on this forum.

Ping me at that time on how my sprinter van is doing.
 

darkscout

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*cough*cough*cough*cough*

I am also a mechanical engineer. Working on Tier IV. I know exactly how some of our fuel systems work and I know the tolerances associated with it. Heck I have a cut away on a desk near by. Under no such circumstances, no matter how drunk I was, I would never run WVO through ANY of our injectors, high pressure pumps, etc
 
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Left Coast Resident

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Apr 23, 2006
Location
San Fernando Valley (Los Angeles)
TDI
2001, 2002 & 2003 Jettas
. . . . .
mackconsult said:
Yeah we are talking about common rail direct injection right? So most of the diesels know adays have this technology and the Frybrid kits work on them.
Not meaning to be rude, but could you cite how you know this, besides the fact that Frybrid says they will work on them?

I am a mechanical engineer who currently works on diesel emission reduction for the 2010 audi Q7's. Not only this but I implemented the cummins 6 cyl into hyster forklifts, and worked on commercial fishing boats with big diesels.
OK, this time I am being rude, but let me just say that I'm about to grab the popcorn and turn the TV off. You've got my attention.

I know the risk, I know the technologies, and I believe that I know how to make it work.
You must know something nobody else knows, and if that's so, I'll be interested to hear and see the positive results. Until then, not that you should give a rat's a$$ what I think, but I'm unconvinced. I'm actually chuckling to myself. You didn't hear anything . . .
 

mackconsult

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Location
Vancouver, WA, USA
TDI
95 TDI Passat Wagon
I can't let this just sit on the Frybrid forum ....... Have a good read at it folks and as I cruise by one of you with french fry smell coming out of my exhaust flag me down and I will be glad to show you the system.

********************

Tried to post but I am not a member…..


Originally Posted by kcfoxie
I really hope the van does not explode. I'm not saying you can't make it work, I've just watched someone with a 2002 Dodge blow a set of injectors, two fuel pumps (tandem and injection), and throw thousands of dollars into his "greaser."


I knew a guy at university who used to drink his own pee, it does not however stand to reason that everyone who attends university drinks pee. Many people have logged over 300K on Frybrid systems without blowing injectors or pumps. BTW the 2002 Cummins motor employs the Bosch VP44 Injection pump in addition to an electric vane pump. Both are known for frequent failures, the vane pump is not acceptable for VO or Bio-diesel and the VP44 needs careful pressure monitoring. Google it and read the litany of articles on the VP44 failure rate, not a good choice for an example, kind of like saying “My 450lb, 65 year-old, alcoholic uncle had a heart attack after watching CSI Miami, that show kills people”.

Originally Posted by kcfoxie
I'm rather happy to buy an actual fuel made from vegetable oil. answer me this; the "fat" of the oil that is cut away in the transesterification process to make biodiesel... where does that end up if you burn the raw oil directly in the engine?

Vegetable oil is a triglyceride fat, that means that it is a molecule that looks like a capitol letter “E”, the horizontal lines are carbon chains (fatty acids) between 18 and 26 carbons long, the vertical line or backbone is a glycerin molecule. In the process of transesterification one alcohol is exchanged for another breaking the bond between the glycerol molecule and the short carbon chain and the process is catalyzed by the addition of an acid or a base. The heavy glycerin molecule drops to the bottom and is drained away leaving a soup of short carbon chains 18 to 26 carbons long. Diesel fuel is a soup of carbon chains 15 to 22 carbons long mixed with a bunch of other toxic junk.

The point of going through the process of transesterification is to remove the glycerol thereby reducing the size of the molecule and therefore its viscosity so that it can be sprayed in a fine mist by the injector and have intimate contact with oxygen and properly combust. If however we heat the complete triglyceride molecules to >172F we achieve the same effect, the viscosity is reduced (just like reducing the viscosity of butter by melting it), the spray is fine and the carbon chains along with the glycerol are burned.

Without the gluycerol there is no fat, the question is; “what happens to the glycerol” and the answer is; it is burned up. Glycerol is also used in the manufacture of high explosives where it is also burned up.

The issue with biodiesel is that in order to produce biodiesel you need only supply a sample meeting ASTM spec once, and there is no one watching to make sure it came from your processor or country. In addition in a recent test it was found that 98% of all biodiesel that passed ASTM tests when it left the refinery, did not pass when it got to the pump.

The reason for this is that no anti-oxidants or chelating agents are required to be added to biodiesel, the fuel therefore reacts with metals in the transport and pumping systems and oxidizes forming polymers, which in turn form a “Varnish” that destroys close tolerance parts (See the Bosch report; www.frybrid.com/bosch.pdf). Now in properly designed VO systems the VO is never injected unless it is at an adequate temperature, the engine is at a proper temperature to facilitate proper combustion, and the VO is washed from the fuel system before shut down with diesel fuel, preventing the formation of polymer coatings.

Originally Posted by Badmonkey

WVO is more viscous then both bioD and diesel no matter what kind your running or what temp your running it at so Kfoxie is correct and the risk of pump failure or injector damage is there no matter what steps you take. More stress equals greater chance of failure, the veggie forums support this.

Research does not bare this out, nor do the hundreds of posting by people with 300K on VO with no IP or injector damage.

Originally Posted by UFO

So Frybrid has converted common rail injection engines with success? Not the Liberty CRD, and the Sprinter has that injection system in common, just like the GM Duramax. I'd be very wary of an WVO conversion on common rail.

I have converted the liberty, see http://www.frybrid.com/liberty.htm and the sprinter has a completely different motor than the Liberty or the Duramax. The Liberty has a Moto Motori diesel fitted with a Bosch HPCR injection system, the Duramax is an Isuzu motor fitted with a unit injector system and the Sprinter is again the Bosch HPCR but is significantly different than the Liberty. The HPCR system lends itself well to VO since the rail pressures are quite high insuring atomization and the injectors are electronically controlled allowing multiple injections rather than a fairly random pissing of fuel.

Originally Posted by Validius

It doesnt matter how many yahoos or 'educated' people endorse WVO, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics and indeed all of physics will never change itself so that VO is a good idea.

No matter how many ignorant people living in fear of that which they do not understand; thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, internal combustion, chemistry, or have even the most tenuous grasp of physics, poo-poo the realities of thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, internal combustion, chemistry and physics which support the use of VO as an alternative fuel to supplement diesel fuel, it does not detract from that reality and only reflects their ignorance and vanity

Originally Posted by Kcfoxie

The oil he used is pure soy oil, from a chinese restaurant that uses the oil for a single cycle and cans it. The stuff is clearer looking than most of the WVO my biodiesel processor uses, I took 3 month old "rancid, unusable in my engine" oil to them and got 50 cents per gallon trade because it was "extremly good quality oil with a low titration" ..... so he's using good oil, also using a frybird system [i believe] installed by a local installer.

You are incorrect and misinformed.

Originally Posted by Kcfoxie

I really would like to live in your reality. It sounds much nicer than the real world. For the heck of it, this thread might be of interest. The post that I really wanted to center on, is the long time poster stating the CDI is anything but a good candidate for a WVO system.... http://www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/ind...6822 &catid=9

My head hurts from laughter. Lovecraft… 450lb alcoholic uncle.

Originally Posted by Kcfoxie

I've yet to see a WVO vehicle that was successful in going 250,000 to 400,000 miles without major repair to the fuel system or the cyls themselves.

Come on by the shop any time you like or post on the Frybrid forum.

Originally Posted by Kcfoxie

I've not seen one; but even if it exists... the Sprinter was not available in the 80s... thus no motor in the sprinter is going to be capable.

Call NorthVanTours, they have logged many mile daily on a Sprinter I did and I service several I converted for a local art moving company that has been doing lube oil analysis for 2 years with flying colors.

Originally Posted by validius

it was aimed at every WVOer who made every BS excuse in the book to justify their ludicrous practice in spite of physics and experiences of others telling them they are wrong.

And the hits just keep coming. When I read your posts I feel stupidity soaking into my mind just for having read them. No research supports your statements, they are FUD.

Originally Posted by validius

wrong, burning veggie is less bad for the environment then burning dino. This holds true in the short term, im not sure what it ends up being after you take into account the extra manufacturing to produce all the extra parts purchased by those who use VO because of the VO use.

Please see above post on the religious aspects of VO use. All bow to the environment!

Just great! Now I have forgotten how to tie a knot. You might consider remedial English for a start.

Originally Posted by UFO


Hey mack, I would take that first Frybrid thread with a grain of salt. I've read about some of those people's experiences with VO on frybrid's site, and they are not talking about the issues they've had with VO. I specifically remember the user New2VOfuels having lots of injector issues with his truck...

He did not have a Frybrid system and the injectors were damaged by using VO that had Sodium Hydroxide in it from fryer “Boil out”, not from VO but from a contaminant.

In short, there is more to the picture than you are seeing.

===========================

I got bored reading at that point…..

All courtesy of Chris Goodwin. The man at Frybrid.
 
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VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
A+++ for that response, will read again!
 

UFO

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Location
A mile high
TDI
2001 Beetle
Oh, bow to the great and terrible Frybrid.....

Originally Posted by UFO

So Frybrid has converted common rail injection engines with success? Not the Liberty CRD, and the Sprinter has that injection system in common, just like the GM Duramax. I'd be very wary of an WVO conversion on common rail.

I have converted the liberty, see http://www.frybrid.com/liberty.htm and the sprinter has a completely different motor than the Liberty or the Duramax. The Liberty has a Moto Motori diesel fitted with a Bosch HPCR injection system, the Duramax is an Isuzu motor fitted with a unit injector system and the Sprinter is again the Bosch HPCR but is significantly different than the Liberty. The HPCR system lends itself well to VO since the rail pressures are quite high insuring atomization and the injectors are electronically controlled allowing multiple injections rather than a fairly random pissing of fuel.
If Mr. Goodwin knows all about the Liberty CRD, why is there no kit for sale there? Couldn't be the high flow EGR that quickly mucks up the intake with WVO, or the ECM that corrects the injection timing for temperature that makes longevity a major issue? I know of more conversions that have failed than not.
 
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