Have both engines under one roof. Like both, but i go up and down small mountains to go to work, the 1.8t will never compete with the tdi's torque. Plus no DSG. The regular auto isnt bad for an auto, but again it just isnt the same.
The future of the TDI
- Thread starter MattWach
- Start date
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
Lots of hills where I am. I find that my 5-speed manual TSI pulls better up the hills than my wife's 6-speed manual TDI. Most likely due to the gearing, perhaps also due to the TSI being a lighter car (my wife's is a wagon). At 100 km/h my TSI is turning 1900 RPM in 5th while the TDI is at 1600 RPM and needs a downshift on hills my TSI can pull right up without a downshift.
Keep the TDI in 5th though and indeed it will walk right up hills without missing a beat; 6th should really be used as a highway cruising gear only.
So far I'm sold on the TSI, good bang for the buck, and I find it overall a more pleasant engine; quieter, smoother, and slightly faster with decent fuel economy if you drive it for efficiency.
I agree with you on the transmission though. I also wish the manual was a 6-speed as the gap between 2nd and 3d is very wide. I've driven the 6-speed auto, my sister-in-law has a '15 TSI with the auto, and last winter when visiting her in BC she loaned it to my wife and I. I didn't much care for the transmission, it had a touch of hesitation. I much prefer my manual.
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
Probably about $4000 or more at manufacturer's cost. Lots of plumbing plus improved controls, sensors, and programming, not to mention the extra turbo.
maybe the difference is transmission then, my tdi barely feels the route i take, while the tsi must down shift twice in some spots to keep 45mph. Tdi stays in 5th, tsi is in 4th.
My tdi is 3016lbs(ish) i believe (2013), i think the tsi is 2700ish? (2014).
2015golfwagon
Veteran Member
Mercedes is gonna stop selling diesels in the USA as is VW.
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
They are? Where do you read that? They're launching a new 4 cylinder diesel for the world market. I expect you'll continue to see diesels in the ELA, CLA, and E-Class sedan.
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
Most likely it is the transmission's final drive ratio in top gear, and the torque. The TSI in the automatic version is 200 lb-ft and in the manual is 185 lb-ft. On the TDI, it's 236 lb-ft.
I suspect that since 5th is shorter on my TSI than 6th is on my wife's TDI, the effective torque at the wheels is probably at least equal or higher on my 5-speed TSI compared to my wife's 6-speed TDI.
If your TDI is a DSG and your TSI a normal 6-speed automatic, and the final drive ratios are the same, for sure the TDI will feel torquier. Besides the TDI having more torque to begin with, the DSG should be more efficient than a traditional torque converter automatic.
Also I wonder if one of the two downshifts you feel on the TSI isn't simply the torque converter unlocking, which feels like an extra shift but really isn't?
JSWTDI09
Top Post Dawg
When?
It must be nice to have a crystal ball and be able to know the future with such certainty. Personally, I will wait and see who sells diesels in the US and for how long. I don't suppose that you have any proof for your assertion, do you? I'm sure that what you say will happen eventually (as with gassers too), but I would not try to put a time line on it.
Have Fun!
Don
gmcjetpilot
Veteran Member
You are trolling.
Even Jaguar has a new SUV offered in gas and diesel.
If you did not know it, diesels offer REAL advantages that gas does not, dispute this much to do about very little VW TDI storm.
When I say very little the much ballyhooed 40X allowed emissions the media reports, that is just NOX and only under some conditions. The VW TDI has lower emissions than gas cars across the board.
Well I was a kid when diesels made a play for USA after the 70's fuel embargos. VW had diesel rabbits, Isuzu had small diesels, including a small pickup before those were a thing. If you recall the diesels then were dirty, smelly, real low on power or at least acceleration. I don't think any of them were turbocharged. However they got great MPG, really great. They had no DPF or anything. I am guessing between low sales even the most early emissions regulations made those go away.....
Than Bucks diesel was based on a gas bottom end... Do I need to tell you how that worked out. OK I will tell you. It did not and many owners swapped in gas engines or scrapped it. Really stupid since GM had a diesel division and could have had a killer diesel back in the 80's.
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IFRCFI
Veteran Member
The diesel isn't yet available in the F Pace in the US. At this point, it says 'Fall'. It will be interesting if it actually shows.
The Ordering Guide for the Mercedes GLC lists the diesel for 2017 for Canada. It's absent from the USA Ordering Guide. It will be interesting if this actually shows as well.
I think at this point, getting certification on small displacement diesels is a waiting game.
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
The F-Pace was just recently launched. The XE and XF show diesel availability on their web site. Whether or not you can find one at a dealer is another story.
The GLC was new this year for Mercedes, and I don't doubt that VW's issues delayed the diesel launch. The E-Class is new for '17 and Mercedes is introducing a new diesel for that car: it's scheduled for 2018.
And gmcjetpilot, there were a few diesels in NA in the 70s, but not that many. My first new car was a '78 Rabbit diesel. And what surprises me is that my '02 Jetta, despite having twice the horsepower stock and weighing 50% more, gets better FE than the Rabbit. TDIs really were a breakthrough.
The GLC was new this year for Mercedes, and I don't doubt that VW's issues delayed the diesel launch. The E-Class is new for '17 and Mercedes is introducing a new diesel for that car: it's scheduled for 2018.
And gmcjetpilot, there were a few diesels in NA in the 70s, but not that many. My first new car was a '78 Rabbit diesel. And what surprises me is that my '02 Jetta, despite having twice the horsepower stock and weighing 50% more, gets better FE than the Rabbit. TDIs really were a breakthrough.
IFRCFI
Veteran Member
DC area Jag dealer says they can't take orders for the F Pace diesel. It looks pretty compelling.
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I think your figures are off. pretty sure there is no difference in TSI HP/torque numbers relative to transmission. The 236lb of torque rating in the TDI is in EPA testing mode, or "cheat mode",so its likely higher. I saw a video where they dyno'd it w/o cheat mode engaged and its more like 260lb/tq.
Even if it is the torque converter disengaging, wouldn't that signal the car also doesn't have the torque to stay engaged?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY (DYNO VIDEO)
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
No, my figures are correct. Check out the VW website.
http://www.vw.com/models/golf/trims/2016/s-4-door-trim/
Manual specs:
ENGINE
Type
1.8L, inline four cylinder, 16V, turbocharged and intercooled, DI
Bore
3.25 in
Stroke
3.31 in
Displacement
110 cu in
Compression Ratio
9.6 : 1
Horsepower (SAE) @ rpm
170 hp @ 4500 rpm
Maximum torque, lb-ft @ rpm
184 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
Fuel Requirement
Regular unleaded (horsepower achieved with premium fuel)
Automatic specs:
ENGINE
Type
1.8L, inline four cylinder, 16V, turbocharged and intercooled, DI
Bore
3.25 in
Stroke
3.31 in
Displacement
110 cu in
Compression Ratio
9.6 : 1
Horsepower (SAE) @ rpm
170 hp @ 4500 rpm
Maximum torque, lb-ft @ rpm
199 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
Fuel Requirement
Regular unleaded (horsepower achieved with premium fuel)
For some reason VW limits the torque on the manual. Weak transmission? Achieve better efficiency? Weak clutch? Who knows.
The disengagement (or not) of the lock-up torque converter will be based not only on max available torque but also on the final drive ratio. All things being equal a taller ratio will disengage sooner.
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PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
VW's website info has always been notoriously unreliable. The US site shows the distinction; the Canadian site did for a while but now shows both versions at 185 lb-ft, as does my owner's manual. It's certainly been known over on VW Vortex for quite a while.
holysirsalad
Veteran Member
With all this talk of small diesels in North America I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Cruze. They don't sell a ton, but they're out there, and a far cry from a BMW or Jaguar.
What makes it worse is that GM had just gotten rid of an equally terrible idea they had just the decade prior with the Toro-Flow engines, *ALSO* based on a gas engine! Never heard of it? There's a reason why LOL
As far as Detroit went, those guys were the real brains but I guess only interested in big things. No way a Detroit engine would fit in a Chevrolet Caprice
Well, maybe a 2-53 if they came in a "pancake" model like the under-deck 71s used on yachts, but a 2-cylinder 2-cycle making roughly twice the dB in noise as it does HP of power weighing in around 700 lbs would have been a real tough sell! LOL.
The rest of GM did a pretty good job shooting themselves in the foot though. Just as the 5.7L Olds bastardization was fading from people's memories they managed to screw up the 6.2L powerplant (which, while underpowered, was reliable and economic) into the 6.5L TD for their pickups...
Ahhh the Oldsmobile 5.7L V8... what a bad idea. (there was also an even crappier V6)
What makes it worse is that GM had just gotten rid of an equally terrible idea they had just the decade prior with the Toro-Flow engines, *ALSO* based on a gas engine! Never heard of it? There's a reason why LOL
As far as Detroit went, those guys were the real brains but I guess only interested in big things. No way a Detroit engine would fit in a Chevrolet Caprice
Well, maybe a 2-53 if they came in a "pancake" model like the under-deck 71s used on yachts, but a 2-cylinder 2-cycle making roughly twice the dB in noise as it does HP of power weighing in around 700 lbs would have been a real tough sell! LOL.The rest of GM did a pretty good job shooting themselves in the foot though. Just as the 5.7L Olds bastardization was fading from people's memories they managed to screw up the 6.2L powerplant (which, while underpowered, was reliable and economic) into the 6.5L TD for their pickups...
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dmarsingill
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2011
- Location
- Dacula, GA
- TDI
- 2011 Sportwagen Turned in , 2000 Z3 Coupe, 2003 Ford Expedition
They don't sell them anymore. They stopped selling them right before dieselgate.
Donald
holysirsalad
Veteran Member
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Although technically accurate, this post conveys the wrong impression.
Chevrolet introduced a new Cruze in 2016. They skipped a year for the diesel because of the new platform. A new 1.6L diesel is scheduled for the Cruze for 2017. Nothing whatsever to do with VW.
Perfectreign
Veteran Member
Concur. I've been asked at least ten times what I'm going to do with my TDI (MKIV) because of the scandal. I've had to explain that my car is not involved.
This is as bad - if not worse - for US diesels as the piece of garbage GM / Olds diesels of the early '80s with the 5.7 L gas block retrofitted to become an IDI diesel and universally spewing oil after cracking.
holysirsalad
Veteran Member
Indeed indeed!
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/04...k-inclined-to-receive-upcoming-diesel-engine/
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2...ruze-diesel-returns-in-early-2017-106659.html
Very cool.
Also of note for the small diesel market, the Chevrolet Colorado (1/4 ton platform, although it's a tad tougher than an average 1/4 ton, IMHO) is shipping now with a little 2.8L 4-cylinder Duramax turbodiesel.
El Dobro
Top Post Dawg
The Olds diesel was never a converted gas engine.
http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2009/09/1978--85-Olds-LF9-Diesel-V-8/1926031.html
http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2009/09/1978--85-Olds-LF9-Diesel-V-8/1926031.html
holysirsalad
Veteran Member
Junk at any rate. Guess I forgot that on account of the Toro-Flow
Last I heard the chasis couldn't handle the Opel engine and it would tear the car up.
RebelTDI
Veteran Member
My understanding is that the 3.0 L TDI are easier to make compliant with emissions. Plus, the can charge more, making VW more motivated to keep selling the 3.0. Not sure if/when the 2L will be back. Too bad.
Galo
Veteran Member
No, he is right.
The five-speed manual cars are detuned because the 5-speed 'small' tranny can't cope with the higher torque.
n1das
TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2002
- Location
- Nashua, NH, USA
- TDI
- 2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
dmarsingill
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2011
- Location
- Dacula, GA
- TDI
- 2011 Sportwagen Turned in , 2000 Z3 Coupe, 2003 Ford Expedition
Just posting simple facts.........you can construe it however one pleases.
It does seem odd that they claim they pulled the plug due to poor sales......and then they re-introduce it with a different engine.
Donald
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So the 6 speed auto is 200lb/ft torque?
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