from the horse's mouth (EPA/CARB at SEMA)

turbobrick240 said:

I think nuclear reactor semi trucks are still a few years out . Much more sensible to have electric semi's charged from a stationary nuclear reactor plant. But nuclear power is on it's way out. Too expensive.

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Nuclear power is not the expensive part. It's disposing/treating of the waste. Plus, no one wants a new reactor in their backyard. Heck, I've got one within 5 miles of my house. A second in only about 30 miles and then I think I have to go about 75 to find the next couple.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I think "raid" is a strong term for EPA agents showing up and checking vehicles for hardware deletes and tunes. But since GDE was doing both I think the tunes got painted with the same brush. Also, they are contacting customers in CA that were tuned and offering to return them to stock. I think that's part of the settlement with the EPA, in addition to a fine.

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Yeah, a couple of women from the EPA conducting a surprise inspection isn't much of a raid. I'm sure they were quite polite. It's good of GDE to send out notices, but the EPA really doesn't have the time, resources, or interest in going after individual consumers at this point. That's not to say that the inspection process for diesel vehicles is unlikely to change in the future. I really do think deletes are their primary focus at this point.

kjclow said:

Nuclear power is not the expensive part. It's disposing/treating of the waste. Plus, no one wants a new reactor in their backyard. Heck, I've got one within 5 miles of my house. A second in only about 30 miles and then I think I have to go about 75 to find the next couple.

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Well, waste disposal is part of the expense for sure. But the plants themselves are tremendously expensive to build. They also make pretty frightening targets for a terror attack.

Local diesel prices have risen from $2.959 to $3.159 in two days around here.

jackbombay said:

What does the TCE contribute to air pollution?
Their diesel engines have intact emissions control systems on them.
What is a "Nuclear engine" LMFAO! And how much soot and NOx do they produce when operated? doubleLMFAO!

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His post in context makes more sense. He was specifically referencing DoD/military, in which case they do have many nuke powered ships and submarines...

I'm not sure what the tri-chloro ethylene thing is about, but he's right, they do have nuke-powered sea-going vessels. So long as the nuke fuel waste is handled and stored appropriately, they're as clean-burning as it gets as far as air quality. Only emissions there is steam. They also don't require frequent refueling...

Back to the post at hand, that's some good info Charlie gleaned about what the EPA and CARB are upto. I've heard quite a bit in recent months about large, well-known diesel-truck oriented shops that have been raided because they were well-known for doing deletes and tunes. They're not just going after tuners, they're going after shops as well.

The individual consumer is likely OK. Whether or not this will spread to the much smaller, lesser known Euro-diesel car tuners and shops, only time will tell. But it's definitely a warning shot to any shop or tuner who's done deletes. Might be time to think about no longer doing it before getting popped.

The frustrating part is many consumers prefer the option of deleting because it's cheaper and many of these complex emissions components have not proven to be reliable and emissions warranties only cover them upto a certain age and mileage, and even then it can be a battle with dealers to get them to warranty anything even if it's a legitimate qualifying case. So, what are price-conscious consumers going to turn to? Disabling the problematic devices.

In a way, the EPA and CARB helped create this environment that has led to cheating since they started requiring all of this complex emissions equipment not long after it had been created, OEMs simply did not have much time to develop and mature the technology to be as effective and reliable as they should be to prevent people from considering deletes as an option.

As ever, the end consumer takes the brunt of the problems.

I, for one, do not like how so many modern cars have become throwaway because they've become prohibitively expensive to repair, both in terms of collision/body work, mechanicals and emissions components. And it's all largely due to regulation and partly due to consumer demand for ever increasing electric features which require software, which then later are found out to have bugs, which then require software updates to fix. Dealer techs LOVE that. "Here, diagnose this issue that's related to a software bug, even though you're not a software engineer." And then begins the battle to get paid appropriately for their time to consult OEM's tech help and/or their QTM to evaluate the issue, determine if it's a module problem or software issue and maybe even fly someone out to further investigate. Red tape everywhere, hours wasted in your service manager's office arguing over getting paid appropriately for the time invested when both of you could be doing more productive things...

To add to Matt's statement, the aftermarket shops like us also have to deal with ever increasing difficulty to get affordable access, or access at all, to these software based challenges. Some are worse than others, but none of them anymore are easy. Toyota's Techstream functionality wise has remained the same, but the price keeps going up. I forget what it is up to, but maybe closing in on $2k/yr. Which isn't too bad for a larger high volume shop that uses it. Ford's has remained the same, but the Ford ex-wives (Mazda, Rover, Jaguar, Volvo) that no longer use IDS as it was lost in the divorce have become woefully aggravating because they now use what is essentially a back door bootlegged spin-off of IDS on many models. And Ford made SURE that NONE of their later updates will talk to these cars. Oh, and their subscription price has nearly doubled despite the lack of brand coverage.

GM now has this idiotic "per-VIN" strategy, in addition to the [not cheap] subscription. So it is $40 per-VIN, and that VIN unlock works for a year. But still, if we need to update anything, or in many cases INSTALL anything, since most GM modules do not come with software (like transmissions that have the TCM integral), you have to load the software before you can complete the fix. HVAC control heads, clusters, radios, body modules, ABS modules, heck even in some cases if you replace an SRS component you need to do an update to the SRS module or it won't recognize the new part. So, an extra $40 and an hour long ordeal to get the electrons dancing across the internet to and from the car to complete the job that would have otherwise taken 10 or 15 minutes. And we HAVE to charge the customer for this, we cannot work for free.

And the bastard whore manufacturers that get raped and pillaged by other manufacturers with seemingly endless "regime changes" (Chrysler, Nissan, for example) cannot seem to coalesce around a permanent scan tool software protocol that will remain and work across all their half-breed models. I mean seriously, what type of CAN bus trainwreck lurks inside of a Fiat Spyder? It is a Mazda Miata with a [kinda-sorta] Fiat engine with a Fiat skin stretched over it. The Techstream has this weird "alternate dimension" it taps into once it detects the Subaru-built FRS/86 is at the DLC, and I assume the Mazda-built Yaris sedan does something similar... who knows what happens with the BMW-Supra love child. Heck, at least Volkswagen didn't even try to integrate the ill-fated Routan, they just made all the dealers buy the Chrysler software, LOL.

And there still seems to be no fix for the stupid Promasters and Promaster City cursed with leftover minivan powertrains or the wonderful MB/Mitsubishi/Hyundai "world engine" topped with a modified Fiat Multiair cylinder head bolted to a German 11ty speed ZF automatic that have the random charging system stop working. We get those in all the time. Dealer cannot figure them out. Half the scan tools you plug into the DLCs, including sometimes our own state inspection OBD system, crashes their system and just lights the dash up like a Christmas tree and all communication stops. It is ridiculous.

Matt-98AHU said:

I, for one, do not like how so many modern cars have become throwaway because they've become prohibitively expensive to repair, both in terms of collision/body work, mechanicals and emissions components. And it's all largely due to regulation and partly due to consumer demand for ever increasing electric features which require software, which then later are found out to have bugs, which then require software updates to fix.

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We've been talking about this a lot at IDParts. The aftermarket parts industry is going through tremendous change. Consolidations of companies, companies failing, companies withdrawing from markets. I spend a significant part of each week looking for alternate suppliers as the ones we now use drop product lines, change distribution, or raise prices. And of course we're looking for parts for a niche set of vehicles in a market where they're no longer sold (mostly). That makes it harder. We've seen several competitors fail this year, and I think part of it is due to the turmoil in the supply chain and price competition from the likes of Rock Auto and Amazon. And if it's confusing and difficult for us, I can't imagine what it's like for shops or the do-it-yourselfer. We get calls every day from people who've ordered from competitors and aren't sure what they got, if it's correct for their car, and if it will solve the problem they have. Not pretty.

My current example of the car technology induced pain is with the radio (sorry the info-tainment). In the old days (MK4) the head unit dies or you want to replace it, you just pull the deck and put in a replacement unit or upgrade with an aftermarket unit which uses a universal fit. If you use a junkyard OEM unit you may have a little pain finding the 4 digit code from the dealer, but you can call and get it and punch it in.

New VW car tech splits the display from the proprietary deck in the glove box and has them talk on canbus. That deck is about $1200-1500 from VW. I bought a perfect used one for $250 only to find that it has "component protection". As far as I've found so far the only solution is to bring it to a dealer who has quoted me "$110-210" to unlock the protection after scanning some VW database to make sure it isn't stolen.

This is all to fix the bluetooth streaming functionality. And at this point I wish that I had just bought an aftermarket FM radio type bluetooth adapter and been done with it!

KITEWAGON said:

My current example of the car technology induced pain is with the radio (sorry the info-tainment). In the old days (MK4) the head unit dies or you want to replace it, you just pull the deck and put in a replacement unit or upgrade with an aftermarket unit which uses a universal fit. If you use a junkyard OEM unit you may have a little pain finding the 4 digit code from the dealer, but you can call and get it and punch it in.

New VW car tech splits the display from the proprietary deck in the glove box and has them talk on canbus. That deck is about $1200-1500 from VW. I bought a perfect used one for $250 only to find that it has "component protection". As far as I've found so far the only solution is to bring it to a dealer who has quoted me "$110-210" to unlock the protection after scanning some VW database to make sure it isn't stolen.

This is all to fix the bluetooth streaming functionality. And at this point I wish that I had just bought an aftermarket FM radio type bluetooth adapter and been done with it!

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On some cars, like your Touareg, that would be a difficult ask to go to something aftermarket. Most of them don't have a dipstick and the only way to check the oil level is via infotainment screen Such is the integration of many infotainment systems. Many of them have various vehicle options you can tweak in a menu system as well and even give you a point of access for seeing the service reminder, resetting it and seeing tire pressure monitoring information as well as resetting that as well. Not all do that, but some cars are that integrated.

Any of these infotainment units are crazy expensive, too. Though sometimes bluetooth is a separate module depending on the year and infotainment you have. Replacing the separate module or sometimes just unplugging it and plugging it back in or doing a capacitive discharge can bring back function.

There definitely are a lot of glitches that are way beyond the scope of what most shops want to deal with. Even most dealer guys don't want to deal with it, but since it's their product, they kind of have to. But since the issues can be time and resource consuming to figure out (like having to call in a corporate engineer) that if you paid out of pocket just for the diagnosis on some of these issues you'd probably just end up saying "nah, I'll live without it for that price."

Enter the dealer guys who then say "well, you could just trade it in, we have this nice new car over here..."

We had some kid* a few years back that insisted the standard radio in the new Cruze mommy and daddy bought for him was not good enough. So he proceeded to put in some crazy light show albatross of a thing... chopped up the wiring, different speakers, the whole works. Looked like crap. Sounded no better to me, but I am sure it was louder.

Found out that both the door chime and the turn signal "click" were actually run through the factory radio, and piped to the LF speaker. LMAO.... so none of that worked any more, and the car's electrical system had more codes than a German U-boat captain.

*by "kid" I mean offspring, and he was probably 25 at the time, living in parent's house, because "college was too stressful".



By the time I was 25 I was already locked into my carreer, recently married, shopping for my own house, and had already purchased four new cars on my own. I am so glad my parents didn't coddle me.

I would still be driving cars from the 60's if they didn't rot from under me up here.

Me too. I have a car from the 30's and you wouldn't believe how much I miss the seat belts and air bags though. I still get most other modern stuff through my phone. GPS, stereo, dash cam, telephone, hot spot for tablet, etc...

The three of us , me , wife and son have five cars

I have a 76 Bronco with a 91 mustang 302 Fuel injection , disc brakes and power steering and a five speed

And a 06 expedition

Wife has a 00 beetle tdi

Son has a street rod 65 falcon wagon with AC and a 76 Chevy pickup that he did a LS swap and vintage air

I want no part of anything newer , only got the 06 expedition because it was a one owner 90k miles for $3,500

The new cars are simply too complicated , and unreliable and expensive or impossible to work on

The sweet spot for vehicles is the late 80s early 90s

You got reliable sturdy fuel injection and mostly reliable four speed overdrive automatic transmissions

The vehicles were made of actual metal and not plastic , and didn’t have more computers than the space shuttle .

We are contemplating getting a newer beetle cause this one needs a clutch and timing belt and CV axles , but we’re Probabaly just going to fix it and keep it

There is no way in hell I’d buy a new vehicle , not only do they depreciate like a rock, they are purposefully built ten times more complicated than they need to be

I understand they need to meet emission standards but they don’t need two dozen computers for that

The space shuttle might not be a good example as it only had five computers and they were archaic.

"The Space Shuttle used five AP-101 computers as general-purpose computers (GPCs). Four operated in sync, for redundancy, while the fifth was a backup running software written independently."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/4_Pi

"The flight computer aboard the space shuttle has less than one percent of the power of an Xbox 360 game console. Astronauts load programs directing the phases of a mission - liftoff, orbit, landing - into the computer one at a time after removing the program for the previous segment."

https://www.al.com/space-news/2011/07/space_shuttle_fast_facts_xbox.html

Lightflyer1 said:

The space shuttle might not be a good example as it only had five computers and they were archaic.

"The Space Shuttle used five AP-101 computers as general-purpose computers (GPCs). Four operated in sync, for redundancy, while the fifth was a backup running software written independently."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/4_Pi

"The flight computer aboard the space shuttle has less than one percent of the power of an Xbox 360 game console. Astronauts load programs directing the phases of a mission - liftoff, orbit, landing - into the computer one at a time after removing the program for the previous segment."

https://www.al.com/space-news/2011/07/space_shuttle_fast_facts_xbox.html

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Close enough
A car needs one computer to run the engine and that’s it
There is no need for a computer to run the heat and air
And a computer in each door to run the locks and windows in that door .

Friend of mine had a Chevrolet several years ago with a small computer in each ,,,,,, tail light .

He knew this because they were forever going bad .

oilhammer said:

We had some kid* a few years back that insisted the standard radio in the new Cruze mommy and daddy bought for him was not good enough. So he proceeded to put in some crazy light show albatross of a thing... chopped up the wiring, different speakers, the whole works. Looked like crap. Sounded no better to me, but I am sure it was louder.

Found out that both the door chime and the turn signal "click" were actually run through the factory radio, and piped to the LF speaker. LMAO.... so none of that worked any more, and the car's electrical system had more codes than a German U-boat captain.

*by "kid" I mean offspring, and he was probably 25 at the time, living in parent's house, because "college was too stressful".



By the time I was 25 I was already locked into my carreer, recently married, shopping for my own house, and had already purchased four new cars on my own. I am so glad my parents didn't coddle me.

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Same here, New Truck, house, college grad and dating my wife.
No college debt, worked my ass off before and during to pay cash.

RoundHouse said:

Close enough
A car needs one computer to run the engine and that’s it
There is no need for a computer to run the heat and air
And a computer in each door to run the locks and windows in that door .

Friend of mine had a Chevrolet several years ago with a small computer in each ,,,,,, tail light .

He knew this because they were forever going bad .

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I agree, computers were a huge advancement to combustion engines but computers everywhere in the car do absolutely nothing to improve it.

turbocharged798 said:

I agree, computers were a huge advancement to combustion engines but computers everywhere in the car do absolutely nothing to improve it.

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Well, that depends on one's expectations.

There's a computer that takes in a bunch of sensor inputs in order to decide whether to fire seat-belt pre-tensioners and airbags and which ones to fire and when. That's safety related. ABS and ESP, also.

Do you have keyless remote entry? No one wants to use keys to lock and unlock doors any more. I get out of the car, shut the door, and press the lock button on the remote. Walking up to the car, I pick up the remote and press the unlock button. There isn't even an exposed keyhole. There's another computer to work that.

Does your alarm system give a confirmation flash of the turn signals all around when you press that lock button? There's more computer logic.

If you have an automatic transmission with more than 4 forward speeds ... For various reasons it's difficult to achieve that using purely hydraulic controls. Even those with 4 speeds usually have at least partial electronic control. Fuel economy and performance dictate electronic control. And more than three forward speeds.

Yes, cars in the past didn't have all this. The only thing electronic in my 1978 Honda Civic was the radio. But I daresay the car I have now is better than that ... and the electronics is a good part of it.

..until it isn't. And that is the problem. There is a certain point where electronics became reliable, now they just concentrate on making them cheap. So the one year throw away cell phone mentality is spilling over into everything consumer related, including cars. Appliances have already fallen off. Gone are the times where a refrigerator could last for 30+ years. I actually have one that is older than I am in my basement that I use for a party cooler... it is not running now, but the couple times a year I use it, it still works perfectly... and I think it was made in the '50s. No, it isn't "efficient", and no, it cannot make ice, or ping your cell phone with a grocery list for you, and no it has no screen on the front. But, it still works to do what a refrigerator is SUPPOSED to do: keep its contents COLD.

Much of the consumable mentality started with the Sony Walkman. Anyone remember those? By the time the first generation hit the sales shelves, the third generation was already out of design and into field testing.

oilhammer said:

I actually have one that is older than I am in my basement that I use for a party cooler... it is not running now, but the couple times a year I use it, it still works perfectly... and I think it was made in the '50s. No, it isn't "efficient", and no, it cannot make ice, or ping your cell phone with a grocery list for you, and no it has no screen on the front. But, it still works to do what a refrigerator is SUPPOSED to do: keep its contents COLD.

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The horror!!!


I like old bicycles a lot, when I work in NYC, I see 30-50 year old english 3 speeds locked up on the street, many have been sitting for years, but I know that with a couple inner tubes and new tires and a bit of oil, they'd ride just fine, and all 3 gears would work. There is nothing made by the bike industry today that could make such a claim.

Yes, like my [real] French made Motobecane bike, in addition to my old Raleigh bike. Not as fancy as my Trek, but boy they sure are well made, and the parts are very well crafted.

oilhammer said:

..until it isn't. And that is the problem. There is a certain point where electronics became reliable, now they just concentrate on making them cheap. So the one year throw away cell phone mentality is spilling over into everything consumer related, including cars. Appliances have already fallen off. Gone are the times where a refrigerator could last for 30+ years. I actually have one that is older than I am in my basement that I use for a party cooler... it is not running now, but the couple times a year I use it, it still works perfectly... and I think it was made in the '50s. No, it isn't "efficient", and no, it cannot make ice, or ping your cell phone with a grocery list for you, and no it has no screen on the front. But, it still works to do what a refrigerator is SUPPOSED to do: keep its contents COLD.

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I have a two year old Samsung that has died and cost me a couple of hundred dollars. "Sealed System" failure.
Now to see what Samsung will do about it.
The Samsung guy hhas been by (1 1/2 weeks after failure), and He said Samsung would get in touch with me within 24 hours ( Past by a couple of hours).
The average repair time is 30 + days (If it's just a board bad)
Today's quality control.

When we had our GE refrig worked on, the repair man said to stay away from any of the Samsung appliances. He said, if you're lucky they will outlast the warranty. If not, then good luck on dealing with Samsung.

oilhammer said:

Yes, like my [real] French made Motobecane bike, in addition to my old Raleigh bike. Not as fancy as my Trek, but boy they sure are well made, and the parts are very well crafted.

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One of the guys in the group I ride with has the same model Raleigh 10 speed that I had in high school and I bought it used. I'm guessing that it was made in the late 60s. He still has the original hard leather saddle too. Bike gearing really hasn't changed much, just up and down in the number and size of gears. For me, the biggest improvements have been a more forgiving saddle and disk brakes. I can stop on a dime in any weather or when some idiot pulls out in front of me. At 60, I need a more forgiving saddle for those 50 - 100 mile days.

I had a Raleigh mountain bike in high school. I was a legend for being the first kid in school to swap on a rock shox front fork. Loved that bike. Must have been made of schedule 40 iron pipe though. The full suspension aluminum bike I got last year is light as a feather comparatively.

turbobrick240 said:

I had a Raleigh mountain bike in high school. I was a legend for being the first kid in school to swap on a rock shox front fork.

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I remember the original Manitou had 1" of travel, all elastomers, no rebound or compression damping possible! Then the Manitou 2 came out and it had 1 1/4" of travel! I can't remember details on the original Rock Shox though.

jackbombay said:

I remember the original Manitou had 1" of travel, all elastomers, no rebound or compression damping possible! Then the Manitou 2 came out and it had 1 1/4" of travel! I can't remember details on the original Rock Shox though.

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Yeah, the suspension components have come a long way. Now the e-bikes are all the rage.

turbobrick240 said:

Yeah, the suspension components have come a long way. Now the e-bikes are all the rage.

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I converted my '94 Raleigh hybrid to electric last winter. I am enjoying longer rides with less effort. The conversion was a fun project. Don't wish that I had anything else.