Timing belt issue 2005 mk4 pd bew

Hello everyone. It has been a long long time since I've been on here. But, I finally got a tdi and, well, finally had an issue with it.

Basically it was running a little funny, a bit of a vibration. It would pretty much chatter when I turned to the right. So, for that I replaced the wheel bearings. Seemed fine. Although, it doesn't seem to be related, I was warming it up to drive to work and it stalled. It wouldn't start again. A few days prior I had a few engine codes pop up on it. Using a cheap obd scanner and a cell phone I got three engine codes. p201, p301 and p726. These came out to be all powertrain related and "injector circuit cylinder 1 (201)", "cylinder 1 misfire detected (301)", "engine speed input circuit range/performance (726)" respectively for the above codes.

So, doing some digging online I tought it was my injectors blah blah blah. Well, I finally popped off the timing belt cover and found what looked like bits of belt in there. Although, as it turns out it was not bits of belt but bits of what I think to be oil and coolant mixed up into a crazy thick goop that closely resembled belt. It seemed to be coming from the crank area and started to travel up in chunks to the cam. The cam eventually skipped time. I placed a lock (tool t10050, I think) on the crank and the pic shows how far the cam sprocket is off.

Grant it, these are my theories. I have no previous knowledge or experience as far as working on tdi's previous to this car.

So, I guess I want everyone's opinion on here as to why this gunk built up in the car....the best was to fix it and I suppose prevent it in the future.

I've ordered a high mileage timing belt kit from idparts. I've watched a million videos on youtube. Including loosening the cam bolts and moving the cam back to where it needs to be. I'll include some photo's that will "tell a thousand words."

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WX2jWHF52_cjmfm4avDVCJBNy7aA-6f_/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/186DOi32fJVVSOWWQ-h-1MNa2IuMmG4Qr/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tmp_6y5DMCly9dIjwotetcbSqbEbYTW2/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1og-fviziTlnaF1LfW1W6WZNVDjt-xK9I/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x_cL6GtCOdfcioLCSUGfCQ3DbRgZtwLh/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16iQlaDOCIpLCiKu-YDSoTt8bJXr5vd5_/view?usp=sharing

Your pictures showed nothing useful except that most likely, you have a water pump leak and a crank and/or cam seal leak.

With the crank indexing tool in place, you need to know the cams position. If it will not start because it jumped time, you need to know how many teeth it jumped. If it jumped more than 1 or 2 teeth, you may have had piston to valve contact which will require removing the head to repair.

You can check for piston to valve contact by removing the cam and inspecting the lifter tops for spider web cracks. While you are in their, it would a good idea to check for cam wear because the PD BEW and more so the BRM) engine have a history of cam wear.

The BEW and BRM engine can appear to run fine after piston to valve contact because the valves are straight up and down and do not bend, they compress. If there was contact, the only sign you will have except for spider web cracks on the lifters is within about 5,000 miles a valve head will drop off and cause severe damage.

With the crank lock in place....this picture indicates how far out the cam is.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tmp_6y5DMCly9dIjwotetcbSqbEbYTW2/view?usp=sharing

That two prong notch on the side of the cam ought to line up with the 4Z.

It looks like you definitely have a leaking water pump and probably a cam seal as Ol’Rattler has said.

I see you havec the crank lock in but I don’t see the cam pin in locking the cam. All I see is a mark that may or may nor be correct. Those notches on the cam are not indexing notches. There is a hole on the other side of the cam that a pin slides into.

I see you have already removed the belt without pinning the cam so now there is no way to know if valve/piston contact was made without removing the cam to get a good look at the lifters for spider cracking.

https://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/...oval-vw-jetta-tdi-golf-new-beetle-mk4-part-2/

Scroll down just a bit and you can see the pics of the cam and crank lock tools in place.

I did NOT remove the belt. The cam managed to skip out of time without me tinkering with it. I'd attribute it to all the debris that accumulated from the leaky coolant and crank seals. They mixed up to form a funky compound that most likely caused it to skip time. That's my theory at least.

All the debris....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NLw212zb8TXAjomcvdiTCIumZbqXtPWf/view?usp=sharing

Oh, and I have a cam locking pin as well...just don't have it in at the moment. Just trying to show how much out of time it is when compared with the notch and 4Z thing.

Ok I saw in your pics of what looks like a very loose belt and I assumed you had removed or loosened it. Since the 4z mark is not part of indexing the cam and crank then your best bet would be since you’ve got the crank locked is to find out if the pin will go in the cam hole and if not how far off is it?

Can you see the hole the pin fits in? Maybe part of the hole, it’s just not quite lined up so the pin won’t quite fit? Maybe the hole is not visible at all? A small inspection mirror is very handy in this case.

I see you’ve got quite a mess with all that leakage. If you’re lucky the valves and pistons didn’t meet. A new belt kit will include a new water pump and O ring, most every kit I’ve bought has also included a new cam seal and I don’t always replace them depending on mileage and whether they’re leaking or not so I have several in my parts drawer.

Best case scenario a new belt kit is all you need, worst case a new head will be needed.

I'm prepared to refurbish the head if need be. I could use a few pointers there though. Should I remove the cam to inspect the lifters for spider webs or could I just rotate the shaft and clear away the oil on each lifter cylinder area? Do those bolts all need replacing once you remove them?

After some thought, I'd bet the belt slipped at the crank, not the cam. That is where I had more gunk buildup. I was under the impression that the notches on the cam sprocket were to line up with the notch 4Z when the crank is locked at tdc. I have located the hole where the pin locks the cam. Could I just take off the belt and advance the cam a bit and insert the pin? Then reinstall the belt and expect it to be timed properly? I know you can tweak it by retarding or advancing it...but I'll grab someone with a vcds for that. Any volunteers?

The timing belt kit has quite a few maintenance items in it since I sprung for the high mileage one from idparts.

https://www.idparts.com/high-mileage-timing-belt-kit-bew-p-5137.html

I added the o-rings for the coolant pipe and oil cooler as well.

This vehicle has 300k+ km on it (about 200k miles). It's a canadian car that was imported to the states. The last guy that owned it most likely didn't replace the water pump and crank seal. Does anyone know how to clean all that gunk out of there easily? I was thinking parts cleaner for the sprockets...maybe degreaser for the housing area? What is the best way to remove and replace the crank seal?

Removing the cam is the best way to inspect for spider cracking. However those bolts are one time use. Some rotate the engine and inspect the lifters without removing the cam. Rotate the engine only by the crank bolt. 19mm 12 point socket.



How far off is the hole where the cam pin should fit? Looking at it can you see half or part of the hole or is it not visible at all?

First thing, see how far the cam pin is off. That would determine how possible it is if damage occurred. But if the timing is off enough so it will not start, there is a very good chance damage has been done.

Since you are already doing the T/B, removing the cam is not that much more work. With the cam and injector shaft in place, you won't see very much of the lifters.

The factory bolts are one time use TTY bolts so you will need new bolts. Forum member Franko6 sells reusable cam and injector rocker shaft bolts and he is the best place to go should your cam need to be replaced or you need head work.

Frank's VW TDI's, LLC
1007 Olive St.
Lockwood, MO 65682
417-232-4634
FranksTDIs@sbcglobal.net

The best way to reach Frank is by telephone.

robertx said:

................................. The cam eventually skipped time............................... https://drive.google.com/file/d/16iQlaDOCIpLCiKu-YDSoTt8bJXr5vd5_/view?usp=sharing

Click to expand...

Seems you still need to do some evaluation. Did it skip time while it was running?

idk if there is multiple holes but the tool fits here....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mczUYP_hR_tgQG6hM_5sFOz0OUGKXhIY/view?usp=sharing

Yes, that's as far as it will go in.

Every bolt that comes out from under that valve cover needs to be new putting it back together? How can you tell? Are they stamped or you just read it somewhere?

Stretch bolts are one time use. See Bentley for individual bolts/torque.

In that last picture your cam lock looks about right. Is your crank lock still in place with the cam pin in the picture?

BobnOH said:

Stretch bolts are one time use. See Bentley for individual bolts/torque.

Click to expand...

I mentioned that in my post. That's why I suggested buying non TTY bolts from Frank Irving.

BobnOH said:

Seems you still need to do some evaluation. Did it skip time while it was running?

Click to expand...

I was warming it up in the driveway when it quit running. It would not start after that. I did try turning it over quite a bit. No start.

...and you are correct sir, these are merely postulations. I'm still evaluating.

Tdijarhead said:

In that last picture your cam lock looks about right. Is your crank lock still in place with the cam pin in the picture?

Click to expand...

Yes, that is with the crank lock in place. For the cam, it fits in a hole...but the tool doesn't go in very far. I'm not sure if it is supposed to bottom out or what.

Comparing your picture to this one that I linked to earlier, allowing for differences in camera angle, it does look like you have the correct spot. Before you remove the belt take the crank lock off and move the cam just a tiny bit and see if that pin will slide the rest of the way in.

https://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/...oval-vw-jetta-tdi-golf-new-beetle-mk4-part-2/

Ol'Rattler said:

I mentioned that in my post. That's why I suggested buying non TTY bolts from Frank Irving.

Click to expand...

I'll try to get a hold of Mr. Irving (Franko6). Non stretch/reusable bolts are an excellent idea. I also looked over his post on the cam mod. After tens years it seems like he did a good job . You had your car done by him, right?

Tdijarhead said:

Comparing your picture to this one that I linked to earlier, allowing for differences in camera angle, it does look like you have the correct spot. Before you remove the belt take the crank lock off and move the cam just a tiny bit and see if that pin will slide the rest of the way in.

https://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/...oval-vw-jetta-tdi-golf-new-beetle-mk4-part-2/

Click to expand...

This picture, from your link, shows what I was trying to relay in a few previous posts.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O6oNgAcvvPe9vcQoaVBKpbQDhDxRgjR_/view?usp=sharing

I would tend to think I need to leave the crank lock on and rotate the cam until those prongs are roughly aligned with the 4z on the back of the rear cover...thus, this is how much my belt/engine is off time from slipping at the crank. Note the direction of the prongs being counterclockwise rotated from the 4z. If it slipped at the cam the prongs would probably be rotated clockwise to the bottom of the 4z.

So, what I plan to do before I remove the belt is rotate the cam, with the belt on, until the locking tool at the cam slips into proper hole(s) and bottoms out. Then I'll check my point of reference with the 4z mark. I'd imagine the prongs will be clockwise of the 4z mark and the tdc crank arrow will clockwise as well. I suppose I could calculate, roughly, how many teeth skipped from there.

How plausible do you think this is?

Ok I understand what your seeing with the 4z thing, however the 4z mark has absolutely nothing to do with setting this engine to TDC. The engine is set to TDC by the crank lock and the cam pin, if those tools fit properly your engine will be at TDC. I’ve done several BEW belts and never even paid attention to that 4z and the tabs on the cam.

It’s entirely possible that the pin in your cam is in the wrong place maybe not even in the hole at all. If you remove the crank lock and the pin, leaving the belt in place, using an inspection mirror and rotating the engine slightly, can you see the hole the pin is supposed to go in?

If you rotate the cam slightly and find the hole, put the pin in and reinstall the crank lock, you’ll be able to see how far off the timing is. One tooth at the crank will translate into 2-3 teeth at the cam.

BobnOH said:

Stretch bolts are one time use. See Bentley for individual bolts/torque.

Click to expand...

Speaking of which, I'm not quite certain which manual would work for my car in particular. There seems to be an overlap with the gas and diesel manuals. The Haynes ones seem to cover multiple models and gas and diesel. The Bentley's are kindof pricey and there are two volumes? An ebook would be ideal. Any suggestions? I don't care for the chilton's.

Tdijarhead said:

Ok I understand what your seeing with the 4z thing, however the 4z mark has absolutely nothing to do with setting this engine to TDC. The engine is set to TDC by the crank lock and the cam pin, if those tools fit properly your engine will be at TDC. I’ve done several BEW belts and never even paid attention to that 4z and the tabs on the cam.

It’s entirely possible that the pin in your cam is in the wrong place maybe not even in the hole at all. If you remove the crank lock and the pin, leaving the belt in place, using an inspection mirror and rotating the engine slightly, can you see the hole the pin is supposed to go in?

If you rotate the cam slightly and find the hole, put the pin in and reinstall the crank lock, you’ll be able to see how far off the timing is. One tooth at the crank will translate into 2-3 teeth at the cam.

Click to expand...

I would tend to think if it slipped a tooth or two at the crank, there is no way the indexing tool would fit in the cam while the crank indexing tool is in place and vice versa. I would have to set the crank tool, remove the belt, move the cam, insert the pin at the cam, and reinstall the belt. Vous a la, tdc?

robertx said:

I'll try to get a hold of Mr. Irving (Franko6). Non stretch/reusable bolts are an excellent idea. I also looked over his post on the cam mod. After tens years it seems like he did a good job . You had your car done by him, right?

Click to expand...

No. I did the cam myself with parts and some guidance from him. As I mentioned before, telephone is the best way to contact him.

Ol'Rattler said:

No. I did the cam myself with parts and some guidance from him. As I mentioned before, telephone is the best way to contact him.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I got ahold of him. I may be doing the same as you did.

Frank is a great choice, if that pin will not fit in the proper hole with the crank locked, you almost certainly have valve damage.

robertx said:

Speaking of which, I'm not quite certain which manual would work for my car in particular. There seems to be an overlap with the gas and diesel manuals. The Haynes ones seem to cover multiple models and gas and diesel. The Bentley's are kindof pricey and there are two volumes? An ebook would be ideal. Any suggestions? I don't care for the chilton's.

Click to expand...

Bentley is recommended, best for the money, and even it contains errors. Haynes and Chiltons seem lacking. Check your local library. They do sell an electronic version, works nice, may have a bit more data, but licensing is finicky. Before you buy check the system requirements, in particular the Windows flavor.
Being old as dirt, I used to purchase a manual for every car I've owned, but I'm finding more and more this is not necessary with the interweb. Some things like wiring diagrams not so easy to find. Your car is old enough, you should look a used Bentley. And yes, it'sw 2 volumes and yes it includes all the Jettas of the make.

What is the torque spec for the crankshaft bolt? Can you use the crank lock tool (t10050) to torque it and get it off? Can you use a punch to take off the camshaft pulley or do you need a t10052 puller?