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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old February 10th, 2019, 20:00   #3511
turbobrick240
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I don't think the Shell oil quality is the problem. But since that is such an easy change to make, I suppose it is worth trying.
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Old February 12th, 2019, 02:55   #3512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a57oval View Post
Thank you for taking the time to help me with this issue.
CLeverUserName,
Based on what your saying I should be checking EGR function and Injector balance. I failed to mention that I had to replace my EGR valve because it started to weep soot out of it after I cleaned it the first time so I wouldn't think that would be the issue. However I should read up on how the EGR functions, what controls it, and how to verify the system. I have a VCDS cable but am very ignorant in how to use it. Time to learn.

I will also look up "Injector balance" learn about that system, and how use VCDS to test it.
A question for you; You mentioned that Shell reformulated their T6 in 2017. Based on my previous oil reports dated before 2017 would it be fair to eliminate the Shell as the issue? My number seem to be pretty crappy both before and after 2017.
Fuel: I try to buy diesel from high volume stores locally and put Silver bottle Power Service in at every fill. About 4 ounces. I use the white bottle when its below freezing but that is very rare around Seattle.
Turbobrick 240:
What would be to first thing to check? Injectors and EGR function as CleverUserName suggested? Or do you think I should be looking elsewhere?
CleverUserName: You said;
"The Spray pattern of the injectors is questionable, however the oil sample itself doesn’t show any evidence of soot related thickening. I would guess the oil thickened in both samples due to oxidation. The new T6 doesn’t appear to be suitable for the ALH at a 10k interval which is why I recommended Mr. A57oval try something else in 5w40 in addition to finding the cause of his intake plugging up."
Is the plugging up of the intake related to oil quality? Maybe I should do this injector balance check and then have the injectors cleaned and balanced?
Can you recommend a company that does this? Do you think this would be necessary at 168,000 miles?

Sorry for all of the seemingly stupid questions. Truth is I am not fluid in this sort of problem. I got some lurnin' to do.
Thanks for everyone's input. Keep it coming.
Peter
Quote:
CLeverUserName,
Based on what your saying I should be checking EGR function and Injector balance. I failed to mention that I had to replace my EGR valve because it started to weep soot out of it after I cleaned it the first time so I wouldn't think that would be the issue. However I should read up on how the EGR functions, what controls it, and how to verify the system. I have a VCDS cable but am very ignorant in how to use it. Time to learn.
I would assume your EGR valve is open as you don't have a CEL, however if it was stuck open I do not know if you would have a CEL. Verify that it is opening and closing normally. Then use adaptation to set it to it's minimum value.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3xbkRKZ-24&app=desktop

Quote:
A question for you; You mentioned that Shell reformulated their T6 in 2017. Based on my previous oil reports dated before 2017 would it be fair to eliminate the Shell as the issue? My number seem to be pretty crappy both before and after 2017.
I've never used T6 and I really don't understand why people rave about it. When PQIA tested it a couple years ago, the results weren't impressive. It's a cheap product, in price and quality and I've never seen any great UOAs from people using it.

It's possible that Shell started putting the CK-4 formula in the old bottles prior to the roll-out.

You can't rule out the oil itself because the other member with the ALH tested in 12/2018 had the same thickening to a 50 wt. And you don't have any data from blackstone that would allow us to deduce what exactly happened. As I said, soot related thickening is abnormal w/ low insoluables and an OCI of 10K miles.

If you don't want to deal with the EGR or injectors, try a different 5w40 and have the oil analyzed by a lab that tests for actual soot, oxidation and TBN.

Quote:
Fuel: I try to buy diesel from high volume stores locally and put Silver bottle Power Service in at every fill. About 4 ounces. I use the white bottle when its below freezing but that is very rare around Seattle.
You can test your fuel to see if an anti-gel additive is needed. Try leaving a mason jar of fuel outside on a cold winter night and see what happens. Anti-Gel additives usually contain light distillates which dilute the other additives which you need for complete combustion.
The two most concentrated diesel fuel additives that I know about are the Redline Diesel Fuel catalyst and Amalgamated TDR-FL. These are both warm weather formulas. The amalgamated product is significantly cheaper than Redline as it is available in bulk, however it must be measured at each fill up.

Quote:
The Spray pattern of the injectors is questionable, however the oil sample itself doesn’t show any evidence of soot related thickening. I would guess the oil thickened in both samples due to oxidation. The new T6 doesn’t appear to be suitable for the ALH at a 10k interval which is why I recommended Mr. A57oval try something else in 5w40 in addition to finding the cause of his intake plugging up."
Is the plugging up of the intake related to oil quality? Maybe I should do this injector balance check and then have the injectors cleaned and balanced?
Can you recommend a company that does this? Do you think this would be necessary at 168,000 miles?
The intake gets plugged due to soot and oil vapor. They both mix together and form a plaque. Base oil quality does contribute to intake plugging. T6 was measured to have high volatility, so much more oil vapor than Redline 5w40 for example which has very low volatility. Over 2x as much. Basically a more expensive or "boutique" synthetic oil will have predominately Group IV and V base oils, which are very pure and stable. They can handle higher temperatures and resist evaporation. That's basically what your paying for. You can also install a Filtered Vapor Recovery Device (Mann Provent) and eliminate all oil vapor from the intake. This will add additional maintenance as the filter media must be checked periodically and may present an issue with emissions inspections. A Provent is a great upgrade, however it will cause you to fail an emissions inspection here in CA.

Injectors are a wear item. The spray pattern will degrade over time. They will need to be rebuilt or replaced. How long is determined by your fuel quality and duty cycle. Many people use this as an opportunity to upgrade to bigger injectors. An injector balance scan in VCDS can give you an indication that there *may* be something wrong and you have incomplete combustion due to poor fuel atomization. Incomplete combustion = soot.

DBW LLc in Idaho does Injector cleaning/calibration and also there is a place in Portland called Diesel Fuel Injection Service who can assist you.
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Old February 12th, 2019, 04:04   #3513
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Here's a little info from Blackstone regarding soot in oil and testing for it:

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/soot...h-is-too-much/

And here is a compilation of iron wear numbers from various oils in tdi's. Note the Rotella T6 is among the top performers. Yeah, some might say formulas change blah, blah, blah- I would argue that the T6 formulation has only gotten better over time.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/Blackstone oil wear test
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Old February 12th, 2019, 04:48   #3514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Here's a little info from Blackstone regarding soot in oil and testing for it:
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/soot...h-is-too-much/
And here is a compilation of iron wear numbers from various oils in tdi's. Note the Rotella T6 is among the top performers. Yeah, some might say formulas change blah, blah, blah- I would argue that the T6 formulation has only gotten better over time.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/Blackstone oil wear test
This article provides much more information about soot control and it's effect in Engine oils if you care to read it. https://www.machinerylubrication.com...oot-oil-engine

TLDR - An engine oil with adequate dispersants in the formula does not readily thicken until soot gets over 4%. With additional dispersants, the soot load can be increased to over 7% before thickening takes place: Viscosity Vs. Soot Level

Most people who test different oils methodically don't use Blackstone because of their dubious testing methodology, questionable comments and the reasons we've already discussed.

I've seen Amsoil and Redline stomp on T6 in comparative tests on the same vehicle. Over and over again.

As I already said, numerous times, all these recent oil analysis that we have seen with T6 in an ALH that show premature thickening have LOW INSOLUABLES (Soot) as measured by blackstone.
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Old February 12th, 2019, 12:11   #3515
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Barring a conspiracy by Blackstone to make Amsoil look worse than it is, I'd say the only thing they're stomping in tdi usage is the owners wallet. The point of that exercise by Blackstone was to show that oils of appropriate weight & specification provide similar results, and people worry far too much about which oils are "best". Any 5w40 that meets CJ-4 or CK-4 certs is going to work great in the pre dpf tdi's.
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Old March 6th, 2019, 17:03   #3516
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i hate this MK7 oil change vs my MK4. can i cheat and do the filter every other change if i drop the OCI from 10K to 7.5 (using an extractor on the times i dont drop the pan). i get oil dilution from biodiesel use anyway so i dont mind lowering OCI
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Old March 9th, 2019, 12:42   #3517
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Quite possibly the filters were designed 30,000 mile intervals


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Old March 13th, 2019, 20:20   #3518
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Default TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

Interesting read I Found this on the TDI board somewhere

The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!

Did you comprehend that?

THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!

Now that I have that off my chest,

VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?

Because people like you either:
1) Can't read the owners manual
2) Don't trust the car makers
3) Can't follow directions
4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car

VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!

Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.

The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.

Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.

Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!

Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?

Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.

Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.

You break down the oils life cycle like this:

Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles

Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?

--------------------------------------------------------------

When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates!

PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments)
Short drain intervals
1K oil change
10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles

3K oil change
10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles

5K oil change
10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles

Long drain intervals
10K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles

15K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles

20K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles

When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change...

The above is based on real world TDI oil samples.

I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time).

Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!

DB
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Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors

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Old March 14th, 2019, 21:45   #3519
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Nothing is cut and dry.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 09:40   #3520
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Interesting read, sent this to an OLD friend who changes his 100% synthetic oil every 5,000 to 8,000 km because that's how we used to do it !
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Old March 15th, 2019, 12:34   #3521
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I change the Mobil 1 TDT oil every 15k in my '01 TDI, but everytime the Blackstone analysis suggests that the oil is well within spec, and there was no reason to change it so early. I still can't bring myself to actually go 30k.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 15:43   #3522
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TDIman,

If you analyse your theory, it has a lot of holes in it. The following makes a lot more sense.

HTHS(high temp/high shear)synthetic oil and a proper TBN for the service conditions and interval and dynamic viscosity starting with recommendations by the manufacture.

Hear is how VW explains it. Most people will find the last page hasn't changed the thinking much when it comes to service conditions but synthetic oil has allowed increased service intervals for most light duty vehicle applications.

I am not sure which service regime is best for me.
The choice or regime can be dependent on how the car is driven and the conditions of
use, It is impossible to state any hard and fast rules. However, if you are not sure,
Volkswagen recommends that your car be set to the factories default of the LongLife
regime. The service indicator will tell you when the first service is due. Your
Volkswagen Retailer or repairer will then discuss the best regime suitable for you to
adopt. To help you identify which regime may be best for you, please refer to the
following guidance.
LongLife Regime.
To obtain the most benefit from the LongLife service regime, the car should to be
generally driven in a style/condition of use listed below:
• Mainly longer distance journeys
• Limited number of cold starts, engine is kept at operating temperature over a
longer period of time.
• Daily mileage above approx. 25 miles.
• Constant speed.
• Vehicle used regularly.
Time/Distance Regime.
It your car is driven in a style if listed below, it may be more appropriate to opt for the
Time and Distance regime
• Extremely uneconomical driving style ie continual maximum acceleration ie. ‘foot to
floor’.
• Vehicle fully loaded.
• Mainly short journeys.
• Frequent cold starts.
• Frequent hill climbs.
• Frequent towing.
• City centre driving.
For further information concerning the servicing regimes, please consult your
Volkswagen Retailer or repairer for full details.
Please note
All mileage stated is an approximate guide as the service indicator system uses
kilometres as the distance measurement.
Last updated September 2007.
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