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Non VW Group Diesels This section is for discusion of Non VWGroup Diesels.

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Old September 12th, 2018, 21:38   #16
n1das
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Originally Posted by 2.2TDI View Post
No offence, this is flawed logic. BMW, like everybody else, is realizing that diesel is dead in North America... Hell, diesel is slowly on its way out in Europe.

I love diesel and I'd love to be able to own a newer one in the future, but I know it's very unlikely that it's going to happen. Do I think they should be discontinued? Absolutely not...

A handful of enthusiasts like us won't keep the diesel market afloat... So saying that you won't return to BMW because they made the logical decision to discontinue a dying product makes no sense

By the way, if you plan on keeping your BMW diesels for the next 10 years, I doubt you'll even be able to buy a passanger diesel car by that point
Diesel is still far from dead but we will see it become less common in passenger cars. I won't say diesel is dead yet until OTR trucks and other commercial trucks and heavy equipment and ships and trains have all moved on to a practical alternative to diesel. It won't be for a long time. By the time that happens I will probably be too old to be driving, if I'm still alive. (I'm 57 now).

I will continue to own only diesel vechicles. My 2014 535d and 2012 X5 35d are long term keepers (10-15 years) and won't be for sale anytime soon. I own both of them outright. The 535d is only at 111k miles and the X5 35d is only 800 miles away from 200k miles. Exactly how much longer they will last is still way too early to tell.

When it eventually comes time to replace my 535d and/or my X5 35d, my not returning to BMW if there are no BMW diesel offerings makes perfect sense. I have never owned a gasoline BMW...and won't. No new BMW diesel offerings simply means I take my business to another manufacturer.

I am a lot less brand loyal than I used to be because whatever I own and drive absolutely HAS to be diesel powered for my driving around 1k miles/week. Gassers are not an option at all, including hybrids. It's already been more than 10 years since I last owned a gasoline vehicle. After 16 years and over 900k miles of diesel car ownership experience, there is absolutely no way I'm going back to anything that runs on gasoline again if I can help it. ALL future vehicle purchases of mine shall only be DIESEL vehicles. There is still plenty of time to add diesel vehicles to my all-diesel fleet.

If I someday add another diesel vehicle to my all-diesel fleet, it likely will be a diesel pickup truck. The diesel pickup truck market is not threatened at all and is expanding. Diesel pickup truck drivers are our friends. I used to own a 2008 Ford F-350 SuperDuty 6.4L PowerStroke Diesel pickup truck. I later sold it after getting my 2012 X5 35d in 2014 (CPO). I could have kept the truck and now wish I had because I miss it today. At the time it was hard to justify owning 3 vehicles when I'm the only driver of them. I'm becoming more of a truck guy too and I'm getting the itch for a diesel pickup truck again. It's just a matter of time before I have another one. Diesel pickups have come a long way since my 6.4L. BMW is helping to make the justification easier.
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Last edited by n1das; September 12th, 2018 at 21:42.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 06:19   #17
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What else was in the news at the same time?
Political bull****.
How much coverage did it get when it came out that every other manufacturer had similar out of range operating conditions that the ECUs were not mapped to deal with?
None.
I think you missed fiat Chrysler and Mercedes getting slapped with lawsuits and investigations (these are just 2 that come to mind)... VW got hit hardest for many more/different reasons than all the other manufacturers.

When isn't there political BS in the world we live in? It's always been there, you just hear about more now because of things such as social media
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Old September 13th, 2018, 06:26   #18
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Diesel is still far from dead but we will see it become less common in passenger cars. I won't say diesel is dead yet until OTR trucks and other commercial trucks and heavy equipment and ships and trains have all moved on to a practical alternative to diesel. It won't be for a long time. By the time that happens I will probably be too old to be driving, if I'm still alive. (I'm 57 now).

I will continue to own only diesel vechicles. My 2014 535d and 2012 X5 35d are long term keepers (10-15 years) and won't be for sale anytime soon. I own both of them outright. The 535d is only at 111k miles and the X5 35d is only 800 miles away from 200k miles. Exactly how much longer they will last is still way too early to tell.

When it eventually comes time to replace my 535d and/or my X5 35d, my not returning to BMW if there are no BMW diesel offerings makes perfect sense. I have never owned a gasoline BMW...and won't. No new BMW diesel offerings simply means I take my business to another manufacturer.

I am a lot less brand loyal than I used to be because whatever I own and drive absolutely HAS to be diesel powered for my driving around 1k miles/week. Gassers are not an option at all, including hybrids. It's already been more than 10 years since I last owned a gasoline vehicle. After 16 years and over 900k miles of diesel car ownership experience, there is absolutely no way I'm going back to anything that runs on gasoline again if I can help it. ALL future vehicle purchases of mine shall only be DIESEL vehicles. There is still plenty of time to add diesel vehicles to my all-diesel fleet.

If I someday add another diesel vehicle to my all-diesel fleet, it likely will be a diesel pickup truck. The diesel pickup truck market is not threatened at all and is expanding. Diesel pickup truck drivers are our friends. I used to own a 2008 Ford F-350 SuperDuty 6.4L PowerStroke Diesel pickup truck. I later sold it after getting my 2012 X5 35d in 2014 (CPO). I could have kept the truck and now wish I had because I miss it today. At the time it was hard to justify owning 3 vehicles when I'm the only driver of them. I'm becoming more of a truck guy too and I'm getting the itch for a diesel pickup truck again. It's just a matter of time before I have another one. Diesel pickups have come a long way since my 6.4L. BMW is helping to make the justification easier.
I get your want for a diesel passenger car, and I agree that especially in the light duty and heavy duty segment of trucks, it's probably going to be around for a while.

However, in normal passanger cars it won't be around for much longer in North America. As much as it pains me to say that, it's the reality... In Europe they will linger around for longer. This is the same story as the manual transmission, which is becoming more scarce every year in North America, and even in Europe

My only argument regarding not going back to bmw was the fact that like I said, in 10 years there probably won't be a choice for a passanger diesel car (other then pick up trucks) so you'd automatically be forced into a gasser, phev or electric car

The other problem is this: let's say you want to replace your diesel BMW's next year... What are you going to get? The only thing that comes to mind is a diesel jaguar XE/XF and land Rover if we're comparing apples to apples. The selection is already very limited today...
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Old September 13th, 2018, 07:35   #19
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You can compare apples to raisins and look at the GM diesels. I personally don't like the styling of the Cruze, but at least you can get a new one with diesel that rivals the performance of the TDI in the 2015 models. The Terrain/Equinox diesels seem to be pretty good engines. maybe a little underpowered for anything other than just driving.

Then there is FCA. There are diesels in Jeeps and the Wrangler is supposed to get the 3.0l V6 diesel next year. This is the same engine that's in the 1500 Ram, which is the other diesel vehicle sitting in my driveway. Both Ford and Chevy are releasing their own 3.0l diesel engines in a half ton truck this year.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 09:27   #20
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Originally Posted by n1das View Post
I am a lot less brand loyal than I used to be because whatever I own and drive absolutely HAS to be diesel powered for my driving around 1k miles/week. Gassers are not an option at all, including hybrids.
Camry Hybrid LE can do 676 mi EPA range (52 mpg combined, 13 gallon tank), or 689 mi EPA highway range (53 mpg highway), and that generation of Toyota hybrids seems to have the control strategies to the point where they can beat EPA if driven sensibly (just like diesels).

And, if the range requirement is due to refueling time... an EV with 300 miles range will have 100 miles a day to spare, and charges overnight - refueling time is reduced to 25 seconds a week, instead of ~10 minutes a week.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 09:51   #21
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Originally Posted by 2.2TDI View Post
My only argument regarding not going back to bmw was the fact that like I said, in 10 years there probably won't be a choice for a passanger diesel car (other then pick up trucks) so you'd automatically be forced into a gasser, phev or electric car
I think I probably will have added at least one more diesel vehicle to my all-diesel fleet by then.

If I were actually forced into anything other than diesel it would be EV. Absolutely no way will it be a gasser or gasser hybrid. I have driven a Tesla Model S and it is a blast to drive. A friend of mine owns a Tesla Model S and I've been a passenger in it many times. The Tesla is an interesting and amazing car but I'm not ready to own one yet.

My ordering my 535d in July 2013 was the catalyst that made him order his Tesla Model S about a month later. I could have gotten a Tesla Model S instead of a 535d back then but I went with the 535d. He went with the Tesla. His Tesla is his primary vehicle and has made several trips from VT to FL and back. It already has over 100k miles on it and with no battery issues.
Still going strong.

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The other problem is this: let's say you want to replace your diesel BMW's next year... What are you going to get? The only thing that comes to mind is a diesel jaguar XE/XF and land Rover if we're comparing apples to apples. The selection is already very limited today...
Equinox, Cruze, or truck. Most likely Equinox or truck. Not worried about it.
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PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
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Old September 13th, 2018, 10:07   #22
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Originally Posted by kjclow View Post
You can compare apples to raisins and look at the GM diesels. I personally don't like the styling of the Cruze, but at least you can get a new one with diesel that rivals the performance of the TDI in the 2015 models. The Terrain/Equinox diesels seem to be pretty good engines. maybe a little underpowered for anything other than just driving.

Then there is FCA. There are diesels in Jeeps and the Wrangler is supposed to get the 3.0l V6 diesel next year. This is the same engine that's in the 1500 Ram, which is the other diesel vehicle sitting in my driveway. Both Ford and Chevy are releasing their own 3.0l diesel engines in a half ton truck this year.
Cars: The Equinoxe and the Buick Envision version use the same Opel 1.6L engine used in the Cruze, IIRC. The engine supposedly has been around a while and has already proven itself in Europe to be a solid engine.

Trucks:
Ford F-150 3.0L "Baby PowerStroke"

I've seen the Canyon diesel out already, the GMC version of the Chevy Colorado with the 2.9L Baby Duramax. Are we talking about the same trucks? Has the engine size has been upped to 3.0L? I haven't been following real closely but I'm aware of their existence.

If I go with a truck, I'm more inclined to go with an F-350 SuperDuty similar to the truck I had a few years ago. The SuperDuty series is a commercial vehicle platform and is well supported for documentation, parts and service, and aftermarket. Being a commercial vehicle platform means a diesel option (standard in the F-350 and up) won't go away anytime soon.
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Why DIESEL is better: (Courtesy TDIclub forum member wxman)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home

Last edited by n1das; September 13th, 2018 at 10:11.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 10:48   #23
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If you're ok with the options that will still be available, then by all means go for it.

However, I don't see how even a light duty pick up truck makes any sense just because it's a diesel if you're commuting and need good fuel economy. Those things get 23-24 average on a good day
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Old September 13th, 2018, 11:06   #24
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The notion that the Diesels are on their way out is I hope the flawed one. It is just the stupid media in USA continuously disseminating undeserving negative info has tremendously hurt the Diesel market. And average citizen just believing in what they read is not helping the situation either. There simply is nothing in the market that can replace today's modern diesel passenger cars. This week during the emission fix on my 2010 Jetta, the dealer provided a rental car that I drove it for 2 days. It was 2019 Jetta with 8 speed automatic rated 40 miles/gal highway. The car returned a dismal 33 miles overall with my regular driving which is 90% highway.
The same route with my emission modified Jetta has easily returned over 43 highway miles on the way to work. (I am still testing it as it was just modified yesterday). This is almost 30% more and my car has 205K on the odometer vs 3400 miles on the rental.

Last edited by tdi54; September 13th, 2018 at 11:10.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 11:09   #25
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Originally Posted by n1das View Post
Cars: The Equinoxe and the Buick Envision version use the same Opel 1.6L engine used in the Cruze, IIRC. The engine supposedly has been around a while and has already proven itself in Europe to be a solid engine.

Trucks:
Ford F-150 3.0L "Baby PowerStroke"

I've seen the Canyon diesel out already, the GMC version of the Chevy Colorado with the 2.9L Baby Duramax. Are we talking about the same trucks? Has the engine size has been upped to 3.0L? I haven't been following real closely but I'm aware of their existence.

If I go with a truck, I'm more inclined to go with an F-350 SuperDuty similar to the truck I had a few years ago. The SuperDuty series is a commercial vehicle platform and is well supported for documentation, parts and service, and aftermarket. Being a commercial vehicle platform means a diesel option (standard in the F-350 and up) won't go away anytime soon.
GM is releasing on inline 6 3.0l diesel for their 1500s. I think it's supposed to hit showrooms by end of the year or early next year. Ford is having issues with their baby powerstroke already. I'd like to say the FCA with the VM diesels has it figured out but even they are still seeing a couple of percentage engine failures here in NA.

Interesting note: Just checked all the GM sites. Only Chevy and GMC have a diesel option listed for the medium SUV.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 11:42   #26
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GM is releasing on inline 6 3.0l diesel for their 1500s. I think it's supposed to hit showrooms by end of the year or early next year. Ford is having issues with their baby powerstroke already. I'd like to say the FCA with the VM diesels has it figured out but even they are still seeing a couple of percentage engine failures here in NA.

Interesting note: Just checked all the GM sites. Only Chevy and GMC have a diesel option listed for the medium SUV.
Got it. Thanks.

With BMW discontinuing diesels for 2019, it isn't clear if it's just for MY 2019 or for 2019 and onward. BMW crossing diesels off their list for the USA simply means I cross BMW off my list for future vehicle purchases.
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PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
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Old September 13th, 2018, 12:03   #27
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I suppose it's possible that BMW will take a one year break before bringing diesels back in the new 3 and X5 platforms, just as Chevy did when they updated the Cruze in 2016. But it's also possible they'll be gone. I was at our local BMW dealer weekend before last and they had a lot of cars on the lot, but only one diesel. So maybe dealers aren't ordering many for stock. I have thought about picking up a 328d as a new replacement for my 335d in case the rumor is true, but it's a so-so engine in a less than stellar platform. The e90 is a better car, and the M57 a far better engine. So I'll stick with what I have. Feedback on prototypes of the new 3 series have been positive, and the new 2.0L diesel (in Europe, anyway) is seen as a big step forward for BMW. So I can just hope.

In the meantime, the Transit Connect with the 1.5L diesel that's expected in 2019 is intriguing to me. And a lot less money. Equinox may be OK, too, but I would have a hard time living with GM's interior design and quality.

Of course I can still keep driving my TDIs. They don't seem to be giving up anytime soon.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 12:33   #28
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The notion that the Diesels are on their way out is I hope the flawed one. It is just the stupid media in USA continuously disseminating undeserving negative info has tremendously hurt the Diesel market. And average citizen just believing in what they read is not helping the situation either. There simply is nothing in the market that can replace today's modern diesel passenger cars. This week during the emission fix on my 2010 Jetta, the dealer provided a rental car that I drove it for 2 days. It was 2019 Jetta with 8 speed automatic rated 40 miles/gal highway. The car returned a dismal 33 miles overall with my regular driving which is 90% highway.
The same route with my emission modified Jetta has easily returned over 43 highway miles on the way to work. (I am still testing it as it was just modified yesterday). This is almost 30% more and my car has 205K on the odometer vs 3400 miles on the rental.
33mpg is by no means abysmal, that is more than what American and Canadian drivers average anyways. The average person in North America drives around 13500 miles a year. At that mileage, we're taking 409 gallons of gas at 33mpg versus 313 gallons of diesel at 43 mpg per year. Gas is currently at an average of 2.83 per gallon and diesel is at 3.26 per gallon

When you do the math, it costs 1157.47 a year for gas at 33mpg and 1020.38 a year for diesel at 43mpg. 137.09 savings a year, then factor in the higher initial cost of owning a diesel, and those savings are automatically negated. IF your diesel costed you 1500 more then the equivalent gasser, it would take you 11 YEARS to recoup the extra money spent on the diesel, assuming all of the things above and the price of diesel and gas staying the way it has (diesel typically always more then gas)

I bet you 95% of people a) don't actually take into account any of this when deciding what car they want to buy and b) don't keep their cars for anywhere near that length of time... more and more people are getting into the habit of leasing cars

Europe is still a different story... when diesel is on average a lot less then gas in most countries, and the initial purchasing price can be recouped a lot faster, it still makes some sense to buy diesel

Make what you will of all this, but people need to face the reality of things. I wanted a MK7 Golf TDI, I really did, but it made literally zero financial sense for me to pay an extra 3000-5000 premium for the TDI when I would've never seen that money back for the next 10-15 years or so just from the better fuel economy, given that I drive 10000-12000 miles a year

But hey, if a diesel still makes people feel warm and fuzzy on the inside than that's great. I'll reiterate, I love diesels, and would love to still buy one... but there are too many factors which are making them go away (politics of course being a major one) and this is the reality us diesel enthusiasts need to understand.

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Old September 13th, 2018, 12:49   #29
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Assuming E10 for the gasoline fuel...

At 43 mpg, over 100 miles, a diesel emits about 52.1 pounds of CO2.

At 33 mpg, over 100 miles, a gasoline car running on E10 emits about 57.2 pounds of CO2.

Now, the big problem is that small displacement turbocharged engines do much better in test cycles than reality. Competing cars with naturally aspirated engines will probably do much, much better than 33 mpg in the real world, and then the CO2 numbers flip in favor of the gasser.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 13:04   #30
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Already being discussed over here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=492317
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