Can I cause damage rotating engine manually with timing wrong

Baxter'sTDI

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Theoretically of course! Suppose my... friend, thought his timing was on, and rotated the engine by hand to be sure it was, and it wasn't. Could've been off maybe even two teeth. And instead of stopping and checking it out, he forced it. And suppose this wasn't on a TDI. Suppose it was on a 1.6 NA. ( I really didn't want to join another forum just to ask a theoretical question) :D
 

Drivbiwire

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No, that's why you check it by hand.

You can't generate enough momentum to bend or break anything. If you use the starter, it's teardown time.
 

Baxter'sTDI

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No, that's why you check it by hand.

You can't generate enough momentum to bend or break anything. If you use the starter, it's teardown time.
That's what I've heard before but couldn't find it anywhere when I searched. Thanks fellas.
 

JDenyer232

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I don't know, but I think turning the crank could bend a valve if you forced it hard enough, but maybe I'm wrong, it's happened before:D
 

jimbote

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No, that's why you check it by hand. You can't generate enough momentum to bend or break anything.
simply wrong ... it's not just about momentum ... give me an engine that's out of time and i assure you i can bend the valves and/or damage the lifters with just a breaker bar at the crank bolt (which is the correct way to rotate an engine manually)

or.... "give me a place to stand and i can move the earth" Archimedes ;)
 
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CoolAirVw

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Notice different answers to the same question....

if its idiot proof then nature invents a stronger idiot, so my vote would be yes, but usually no. (if the person has any sense).
 

Baxter'sTDI

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Interesting answers. I guess the next question would be, will just inspecting the lifters tell me whether or not the valves are bent? Or does the head have to come off?
 

Vince Waldon

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As usual this place gets lost in semantics. :)

Is there a difference between "I was slowly rotating it by hand and it came up against something and stopped" vs. "I give it a big tug with longest breaker bar and it spun a bit and then went bang when it stopped" ??

Absolutely. :):)
 

jimbote

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Reset the cam timing. Spin the engine slowly and gently. Run a compression test. That'll tell you if there is valve damage.
compression tests to detect bent valves really don't work on these engines because of the straight on relationship between the piston and valves, the valves compress and corkscrew they can bend and still offer a great seal
 

Baxter'sTDI

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compression tests to detect bent valves really don't work on these engines because of the straight on relationship between the piston and valves, the valves compress and corkscrew they can bend and still offer a great seal
Are you suggesting I pull the head?
 

Drivbiwire

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Valves are vertically aligned with the cylinder bore, Technically the vertical positioning imparts a direct force on the valve so there is no "Bending" moment.

IF you smash a lifter with enough force, by hand, the valve will not bend, but the possible outcome may be a damaged lifter.

Inside each lifter is a hydraulic channel with a check valve to trap oil and a spring. The spring is always trying to expand the lifter and allow for a chamber that oil can fill to take up the excess lash.


To check for damage:
- Use a plastic wedge
- Slide the wedge between the lifter and the cam
- There should be approx .5mm of compression on the lifter.
- The lifter must return to the contact position where it is in contact with the cam lobe on its own.

If you remove the lifters, and there is contact damage, you will see spider cracking on the upper face of the lifter. In some cases you may see a circular raised region identifying which lifter took an excessive impact.



Now, there is NO WAY a HUMAN can impart enough force to CRUSH a lifter (notice I did not say impossible) but lets not get caught up in semantics. If I find an engine out of time (Cam and Crank) by more than 7 degrees, all lifters get close scrutiny...

If you have a cam out for any reason, Compressing the internal plunger of the lifter and feeling the spring return the plunger to the extended position is a great check for lifter function. This requires compressing and squeezing out the trapped oil. Once the oil is expelled the spring and will be free to compress by force of your fore finger and thumb on the lifter body.

IF a valve is damaged, this is indicated by a jammed valve. Valves don't "bend" they compress. The shaft of the valve itself widens and jams in the valve guide.

IF you suspect a damaged head:
- Remove the cam
- Remove the lifters
- Inspect each lifter as described above, note any visual raised circular patterns in the center of the face
- By hand depress each valve and note any dragging of the valve on compression or return.
- IF you note any dragging, you have a compressed valve and this will require replacement before being returned to service.
- When you remove a valve, mic'ing each valve stem for diameter is a great way to identify valves that may have been struck by the piston(s). Any valve that has excessive shaft distortion must be replaced since it will have internal stress that will lead to eventual failure.
- Any valve that is found to be compressed, should also lead to a close inspection of the guide and or replacement of the guide and its seal. There is nothing worse than replacing a valve and installing it in a loose guide...

If a valve is "bent" the valve was crushed to the point that the shaft was no longer able to slide in the guide, now you more than likely have damage that is so severe that the entire head will require replacement...
 
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AndyBees

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Does this Theoretical 1.6 engine have hydraulic or solid lifters? Big difference.

I do know of a 1.6 that was driven over 4k miles with the exhaust valves banging the pistons, which caused the engine to consume oil and smoke considerably (solid lifters). We removed and installed another head.

I doubt that you have damaged the valves, exhaust no doubt. Otherwise, if the valves hitting pistons are the Intake Valves, it must be out time by 180 degrees.
 
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Drivbiwire

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the venerable 1.6 had Both, it depends on the year.

Pre-1986 used Solid lifters, Remove the shim on the bucket and you can inspect for spider cracking.

Post 1986 used Hydraulic, pretty obvious which one you have when you look at the lifters.

Good question to raise since a solid lifter will require the removal of the shim for inspection.
 

Baxter'sTDI

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Does this Theoretical 1.6 engine have hydraulic or solid lifters? Big difference.

I do know of a 1.6 that was driven over 4k miles with the exhaust valves banging the pistons, which caused the engine to consume oil and smoke considerably (solid lifters). We removed and installed another head.

I doubt that you have damaged the valves, exhaust no doubt. Otherwise, if the valves hitting pistons are the Intake Valves, it must be out time by 180 degrees.
I will have to theoretically check. :D

Thanks everybody for the advice so far. I wondered if this wouldn't be a touchy subject.
 

jimbote

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actually DBW, the valves can bend into a "c" shape or corkscrew shape they don't always "widen" at the stem.... and how do you define "no way" ? to me that's the same as saying "impossible"...you can bet your cam lobes that it wouldn't be difficult to crush hydraulic lifters with a breaker bar on the crank bolt...
 
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KLXD

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Who needs a crank holder for removing and torquing the crank bolt. Just put the cam out of time.
 

Dimitri16V

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Common logic would tell you to stop if you fell resistance
I do agree with DBW though it would take a lot of force to crush the valves using arm strength
 
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dogdots

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simply wrong ... it's not just about momentum ... give me an engine that's out of time and i assure you i can bend the valves and/or damage the lifters with just a breaker bar at the crank bolt (which is the correct way to rotate an engine manually)

or.... "give me a place to stand and i can move the earth" Archimedes ;)
I just use a 19mm ratcheting wrench going down from the topside to rotate the engine 2 revs before reinstalling the crank pulley - no breaker bar needed here :) If the crank pulley is still on, like when I am lining up TDC before starting the job, I use my 3/8 drive snap-on ratchet and 19mm socket from the bottom. I doubt I have enough arm strength to damage a valve or lifter using a ratcheting wrench or 3/8 drive ratchet, but I've never tried :p
 

jimbote

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i think the point is "is it possible?" ...most likely not probable using sensible tools like a 3/8 ratchet ... but we don't know what tool the OP's friend used to "force it" ... and the fact that he forced it seems to imply he came to a stiff spot in the rotation, likely valve piston contact, then went past that obstruction!.... so what gives on an interference engine when it's forced beyond "first base" of the valve and piston "kissing" ?
 
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Baxter'sTDI

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Okay, okay. The car is real. Everything that "theoretically" happened did actually happen. I'm still blaming my friend, though!

The car is an '84 and hadn't ran in 6 or 7 years because of a botched timing belt job. However, upon inspection, I suspected that only the injection pump was out of time although I could still be wrong. Last night I actually got it fired up and it seems to run pretty well. I'm not going to push it yet though just in case there are bent valves or something else, you know?

So here are the lifters...











As far as I can tell they look fine but they look like the lifters in my TDI, (hydraulic, right?) and I don't see what might be called a "shim" or anything. You tell me. :D
 

AndyBees

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Yep, those are solid lifters as we discussed in previous posts...

And, the adjusting discs all look to have typical wear patterns..........

Well, as I stated above, I know of a 1.6 (solid lifters) that was driven over 4k miles with the exhaust valves whacking the pistons. I'd take a pic and show you the pistons but the TDI Photo Gallery is no longer friendly to me with uploads.

I doubt the valve(s) is damaged ..... would assume he only rotated the engine past one tight spot and then figured something wasn't right....
 

compu_85

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I have seen people damage lifters on an out of time engine by pushing the car while it was in gear.

If you were using a spanner on the camshaft I'd think it would take a *lot* of force.

-J
 

Vince Waldon

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they look like the lifters in my TDI, (hydraulic, right?) and I don't see what might be called a "shim" or anything. You tell me. :D
On closer examination you'll see the notches cut into the sides of the lifters at the top.. so that you can get shim pliers in there to remove the adjusting shims... on your mechanical lifters. :)

No biggie... and some folks swear you get a bit more power out of mechanical lifters... but you will need to do a bit more dancing when you put it back together, as you'll want to confirm all the gaps are correct.
 

Baxter'sTDI

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On closer examination you'll see the notches cut into the sides of the lifters at the top.. so that you can get shim pliers in there to remove the adjusting shims... on your mechanical lifters. :)

No biggie... and some folks swear you get a bit more power out of mechanical lifters... but you will need to do a bit more dancing when you put it back together, as you'll want to confirm all the gaps are correct.
Excellent. I work at a tractor dealership so I'm sure one of the mechanics will have such pliers. Gratzi!
 

AndyBees

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Question? Will a head that come Factory OE with solid lifters operate with hydraulic lifters? Are there proper oiling ports for hydraulic lifter function?

Adjustment on the 1.6 is 0.008 Intake and 0.012 on the Exhaust, if I remember correctly ......... I have about 300 adjusting discs of varying thicknesses!:D

The pliers are a special tool for removing the discs while they are under the cam shaft. However, there is also a special depressing tool that is used to depress the lifter so that the disc can be removed.

The disc will come out of the lifters as you have them laying there on the work bench by using a small thin blade screw driver to pop them out ... no big deal! The thickness of the disc will be stamped/imprinted in the center on the other side. Some are in metric, some in inches and some will have both metric and inches ........ just depends where they come from.

Keep in mind, each disc was installed on it's particular lifter to fit (clearance adjustment) at the spot it was removed from. If you mix them, the adjustment will definitely be all screwed up!:eek: In other words, each of those lifters needs to go back in the same hole it came out of with the same adjusting disc on top of it....
 
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